One for the twin drivers ...
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's up to you, as captain, to decide whether the situation warrants a Mayday.
What I'd do, and what I suggest to my students that they do, is as follows: after an engine failure, and once everything's under control, assess whether you're able to climb to, or maintain, a safe height. If you are, it's a Pan Pan. If not, it's a Mayday. If there's a fire, it's always a Mayday.
That doesn't mean other twin drivers would do the same. It also doesn't mean I wouldn't change my mind if it happened to me for real. But, probably the most relevant of all, I doubt it would really make any different to the way ATC treat the situation anyway.
FFF
---------------
What I'd do, and what I suggest to my students that they do, is as follows: after an engine failure, and once everything's under control, assess whether you're able to climb to, or maintain, a safe height. If you are, it's a Pan Pan. If not, it's a Mayday. If there's a fire, it's always a Mayday.
That doesn't mean other twin drivers would do the same. It also doesn't mean I wouldn't change my mind if it happened to me for real. But, probably the most relevant of all, I doubt it would really make any different to the way ATC treat the situation anyway.
FFF
---------------
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels - Twin Comanche PA39 - KA C90B
Age: 51
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes.
Mayday and 7700.
No question about it in a twin.
Why?........because you have lost one of your two engines and at that very moment you probably don't know exactly why and need as much ATS assistance as possible.
If you are one of those that can guarantee that the other will not fail and that you will not have further complications with load shedding, Vacuum supply, performace and so on, then perhaps downgrade it to a Pan but I can't see the point in downgrading when you may have to upgrade again later.
Mayday is simply a tool for obtaining unhindered assistance from the rest of the team i.e. ATS and aerodrome providers.
However, one of the most important things is that you shut everyone else on the frequency up while you get it sorted, gather your thoughts and get the assistance you want.
Regards,
DFC
Mayday and 7700.
No question about it in a twin.
Why?........because you have lost one of your two engines and at that very moment you probably don't know exactly why and need as much ATS assistance as possible.
If you are one of those that can guarantee that the other will not fail and that you will not have further complications with load shedding, Vacuum supply, performace and so on, then perhaps downgrade it to a Pan but I can't see the point in downgrading when you may have to upgrade again later.
Mayday is simply a tool for obtaining unhindered assistance from the rest of the team i.e. ATS and aerodrome providers.
However, one of the most important things is that you shut everyone else on the frequency up while you get it sorted, gather your thoughts and get the assistance you want.
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of South
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This video has been posted before but I think (not yet being a commercial pilot ) that this is almost textbook . and reinforces the point made by DFC superbly
http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_B...ideo-8457.html
http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_B...ideo-8457.html
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I am going to say "no", not necessarily.
Since the primary actions are to control the aircraft height/heading (asymmetry), understand if the failure is catastrophic (fire or bits flying off) or not and then go through re-start drills or shutdown/feather drills A/R then,
Secondary actions are to "secure" the live engine;
Then, and only then would you decide to call someone with a "mayday".
As, by then, you won't necessarily know if it is contagious
you might require an expeditious landing/return to base.
If it is "obviously" only one-out you don't need to immediately go to a "mayday" unless you can't maintain height (and need to) or have some secondary issue such as damage from debris, ice, or you suspect it might be fuel related or something that might affect the live one.
When it happened to me it was not a "mayday", we were still on frequency with departure aerodrome and asked for an expedited return.
No drama.
As PIC you would know what systems were affected by which engine inop, so it is your call. Always.
Since the primary actions are to control the aircraft height/heading (asymmetry), understand if the failure is catastrophic (fire or bits flying off) or not and then go through re-start drills or shutdown/feather drills A/R then,
Secondary actions are to "secure" the live engine;
Then, and only then would you decide to call someone with a "mayday".
As, by then, you won't necessarily know if it is contagious
you might require an expeditious landing/return to base. If it is "obviously" only one-out you don't need to immediately go to a "mayday" unless you can't maintain height (and need to) or have some secondary issue such as damage from debris, ice, or you suspect it might be fuel related or something that might affect the live one.
When it happened to me it was not a "mayday", we were still on frequency with departure aerodrome and asked for an expedited return.
No drama.
As PIC you would know what systems were affected by which engine inop, so it is your call. Always.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Although I agree with Rustle's process in that there are very very few situations that require and instant response. A MEP single engine failure in the cruise probably is not a 'panicable' event, something like fire or ice being examples of the exception.
However, once you have assessed the situation, taken appropriate action and reviewed it and then you still only have one engine, a Mayday and a divert seems to me to be an eminently sensible course of action. In such situations there is no sense in considering others, that is ATC's job. One needs to keep one's options open and it costs nothing. It is always possible to downgrade later, but I imagine that it is potentially much harder to escalate if your situation suddenly deteriorates.
However, once you have assessed the situation, taken appropriate action and reviewed it and then you still only have one engine, a Mayday and a divert seems to me to be an eminently sensible course of action. In such situations there is no sense in considering others, that is ATC's job. One needs to keep one's options open and it costs nothing. It is always possible to downgrade later, but I imagine that it is potentially much harder to escalate if your situation suddenly deteriorates.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dunno ... what day is it?
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with FFF.
I initially called a mayday, because I wasn't sure whether I could maintain height or not. We had just dirtied up and were in an orbit due to a slow aircraft ahead on approach. Gear up, descended a little to increase speed and bring flap up, able to make the field so I downgraded to a pan. But I was VMC and at 4000' on approach, enough height but also close to the airfield, ideal place for an engine to stop if you have to experience it.
The second time I didn't call anything, because I had just taxied off the runway, and a PA31 will taxy on one. Just.
I initially called a mayday, because I wasn't sure whether I could maintain height or not. We had just dirtied up and were in an orbit due to a slow aircraft ahead on approach. Gear up, descended a little to increase speed and bring flap up, able to make the field so I downgraded to a pan. But I was VMC and at 4000' on approach, enough height but also close to the airfield, ideal place for an engine to stop if you have to experience it.
The second time I didn't call anything, because I had just taxied off the runway, and a PA31 will taxy on one. Just.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I posted earlier very directly;
Is there any if's buts or maybe's there?
NO! - for a very good reason - When your engine stops, you know the drills and you will have enough to work out without trying to disect the situation and thinking up what R/T you are going to use when the time comes.
Mayday at the appropriate time every time.
Even if you do not declare a MAYDAY, UK ATC are going to treat you as if you had.........because everyone knows that an engine failure in a twin is an emergency
The problem with getting this across is highlighted in one word from HWD's post above Panic. Can someone please explain the link between Mayday and Panic?
Regards,
DFC
Yes.
Mayday and 7700.
No question about it in a twin.
Mayday and 7700.
No question about it in a twin.
NO! - for a very good reason - When your engine stops, you know the drills and you will have enough to work out without trying to disect the situation and thinking up what R/T you are going to use when the time comes.
Mayday at the appropriate time every time.
Even if you do not declare a MAYDAY, UK ATC are going to treat you as if you had.........because everyone knows that an engine failure in a twin is an emergency
The problem with getting this across is highlighted in one word from HWD's post above Panic. Can someone please explain the link between Mayday and Panic?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DFC
Is there any if's buts or maybe's there?
NO! - for a very good reason - When your engine stops, you know the drills and you will have enough to work out without trying to disect the situation and thinking up what R/T you are going to use when the time comes.
Mayday at the appropriate time every time.
NO! - for a very good reason - When your engine stops, you know the drills and you will have enough to work out without trying to disect the situation and thinking up what R/T you are going to use when the time comes.
Mayday at the appropriate time every time.
No blanket rule is going to cover the situation which is why, in their wisdom, the UK CAA haven't made it a "rule" to broadcast a "mayday" in the event of an engine failure in a MEP.
Normally you love quoting rules, DFC, but in this case you're wrong. There isn't one [a rule] and nor should there be.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had one on my initial multi - or at least we couldn’t get the engine restarted. I asked the examiner if he wanted to make a pan or a mayday - in the event by the time we had sorted ourselves out we didn’t make either, and we got the engine restarted before landing. Having intentionally shut the engine down the aircraft was happily polling around on one, and we certainly knew why the other had stopped if not why it didn’t want to restart.
Mayday seems the correct answer but it is worth analysing why and in what circumstances.
Suppose you are mid channel working LI?
In the instant the last thing on your mind is the call. Sort the aircraft out and try and work out if the problem is stable and only related to one engine. By the time you have the aircraft under control and established the situation is stable its en route to the nearest diversion.
You now want total priority so it’s a mayday.
You might be panicked into making a call somewhat sooner and more than likely thats going to be a mayday as the natural reaction.
So, on balance, it seems to me the question is what do you achieve by calling a pan rather than a mayday given that AT will treat the event as an emergency in either circumstance? Moreover a mayday signifies you want the urgent assistance of AT - and you probably should just in case things do not remain stable, whereas a pan indicates you have a problem but do not need that urgent assistance.
Having said that, I recall my last rough running engine in a single. That resulted in an immediate pan but in hindsight I had no idea whether the engine might have stopped at any moment.
Mayday seems the correct answer but it is worth analysing why and in what circumstances.
Suppose you are mid channel working LI?
In the instant the last thing on your mind is the call. Sort the aircraft out and try and work out if the problem is stable and only related to one engine. By the time you have the aircraft under control and established the situation is stable its en route to the nearest diversion.
You now want total priority so it’s a mayday.
You might be panicked into making a call somewhat sooner and more than likely thats going to be a mayday as the natural reaction.
So, on balance, it seems to me the question is what do you achieve by calling a pan rather than a mayday given that AT will treat the event as an emergency in either circumstance? Moreover a mayday signifies you want the urgent assistance of AT - and you probably should just in case things do not remain stable, whereas a pan indicates you have a problem but do not need that urgent assistance.
Having said that, I recall my last rough running engine in a single. That resulted in an immediate pan but in hindsight I had no idea whether the engine might have stopped at any moment.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 6th Oct 2007 at 21:21.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does the CAA have to legislate for what should be (and is among the professional operators atleast) simply good practice?
Have a look at the video example given above. Here we have a professional crew who will have had less than 6 months since they handled all types of emergency and unusual situations in a very expensive simulator, flying a high performance aircraft with an engine failure situation where the engine that has failed is probably still producing some thrust..........was there any delay, was there any sense of hey we are climbing well, going into the special departure procedure, the fire is out we are VMC ah perhaps we will just call a PAN?..........No straight to the point - Mayday.
Where oh where is this reluctance to use the word Mayday on the R/T among non-professional pilots?
Is it seen as I asked previously to be some indication of Panic? Wrong!
Is it seen as the Pilot God Hero not having the right stuff? Wrong!
Is it seen as an over reaction to a situation? Wrong!
The only way the word Mayday can get you into trouble when you have an emergency is in the accident report that notes it's omission!
PPLs do not have the advantage of multi-crew and regular 6 monthly sim practice and (for the most part) being absolutely current with the aircraft. Thus an engine failure is more of a problem.
Finally, the engine failure is only the start of the problems. Why not get the help you want to land at the nearest suitable aerodrome? Or is anyone thinking that they would not immediately divert in that situation?
Regards,
DFC
Have a look at the video example given above. Here we have a professional crew who will have had less than 6 months since they handled all types of emergency and unusual situations in a very expensive simulator, flying a high performance aircraft with an engine failure situation where the engine that has failed is probably still producing some thrust..........was there any delay, was there any sense of hey we are climbing well, going into the special departure procedure, the fire is out we are VMC ah perhaps we will just call a PAN?..........No straight to the point - Mayday.
Where oh where is this reluctance to use the word Mayday on the R/T among non-professional pilots?
Is it seen as I asked previously to be some indication of Panic? Wrong!
Is it seen as the Pilot God Hero not having the right stuff? Wrong!
Is it seen as an over reaction to a situation? Wrong!
The only way the word Mayday can get you into trouble when you have an emergency is in the accident report that notes it's omission!
PPLs do not have the advantage of multi-crew and regular 6 monthly sim practice and (for the most part) being absolutely current with the aircraft. Thus an engine failure is more of a problem.
Finally, the engine failure is only the start of the problems. Why not get the help you want to land at the nearest suitable aerodrome? Or is anyone thinking that they would not immediately divert in that situation?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
I had one on my initial multi - or at least we couldn’t get the engine restarted. I asked the examiner if he wanted to make a pan or a mayday
Examiner in the case of additional ratings is a "passenger" to all intents and purposes, and it is Captain's Call what happens next: In an exam you're the Captain - your call. What you gonna do next time? Ring him?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DFC
PPLs do not have the advantage of multi-crew and regular 6 monthly sim practice and (for the most part) being absolutely current with the aircraft. Thus an engine failure is more of a problem.
Finally, the engine failure is only the start of the problems. Why not get the help you want to land at the nearest suitable aerodrome? Or is anyone thinking that they would not immediately divert in that situation?
Regards,
DFC
Finally, the engine failure is only the start of the problems. Why not get the help you want to land at the nearest suitable aerodrome? Or is anyone thinking that they would not immediately divert in that situation?
Regards,
DFC
The video link is totally irrelevant.
Stop trying to invent situations to justify your "rule" and accept that sometimes a "mayday" is required, and sometimes it ain't.
It is captain's decision whether to call a "mayday" or not. Not your's
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captaincy is a valid point.
The reason why I think a “discussion” about whether to call a pan or mayday was the right call was because there was no immediate danger or need for urgent assistance at that moment. There was no reason to think the engine would not restart as it had been intentionally shut down. I was happy to do neither and as it turned out so was the examiner. Captaincy in whatever situation, even in a test, is about using the resources at your disposal in the best way. Personally I would happily consult with any pilot in the seat next to me if I could. In the same way, whilst you may well jest about getting on the ‘phone, I would happily call ops from the air if I thought they might be able to assist with an issue once I was happy the aircraft was stable.
If the engine has failed, or in this case, had refused to restart, on balance I want the urgent attention of AT. If I was enroute and was talking to a unit other than that at my diversion a pan might be sufficient, but it is still going to me a mayday at my diversion, so again, on balance why bother with the pan.
The fact is a single engine approach is a mayday situation imo .. .. ..
.. .. .. unless, that is, you know of so other way of getting back on the ground?
The reason why I think a “discussion” about whether to call a pan or mayday was the right call was because there was no immediate danger or need for urgent assistance at that moment. There was no reason to think the engine would not restart as it had been intentionally shut down. I was happy to do neither and as it turned out so was the examiner. Captaincy in whatever situation, even in a test, is about using the resources at your disposal in the best way. Personally I would happily consult with any pilot in the seat next to me if I could. In the same way, whilst you may well jest about getting on the ‘phone, I would happily call ops from the air if I thought they might be able to assist with an issue once I was happy the aircraft was stable.
If the engine has failed, or in this case, had refused to restart, on balance I want the urgent attention of AT. If I was enroute and was talking to a unit other than that at my diversion a pan might be sufficient, but it is still going to me a mayday at my diversion, so again, on balance why bother with the pan.
The fact is a single engine approach is a mayday situation imo .. .. ..
.. .. .. unless, that is, you know of so other way of getting back on the ground?
Luvverley!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: --
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the risk of being shot down in flames here.....
Declare a Mayday. You'd like to think that the 2nd engine will function nicely, but you don't know that. You need assistance (or at least the awareness) from ATC. Nothing, trust me, NOTHING cuts through background noise in a tower and on a frequency quite like the M word. I know this because I have missed a wishy-washy "oh I have a bit of an engine problem" call on two occasions. "Pan Pan" or "Mayday" GETS YOU NOTICED! And gets the help you may need in place. If you subsequently decide you don't need it..... that's your call.
Don't hesitate, is my advice. I personally would rather it that way around than potentially miss another one.
Safe flying,
Foxy
Declare a Mayday. You'd like to think that the 2nd engine will function nicely, but you don't know that. You need assistance (or at least the awareness) from ATC. Nothing, trust me, NOTHING cuts through background noise in a tower and on a frequency quite like the M word. I know this because I have missed a wishy-washy "oh I have a bit of an engine problem" call on two occasions. "Pan Pan" or "Mayday" GETS YOU NOTICED! And gets the help you may need in place. If you subsequently decide you don't need it..... that's your call.
Don't hesitate, is my advice. I personally would rather it that way around than potentially miss another one.
Safe flying,
Foxy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFC, Foxy Loxy et al - I suggest you actually learn the definitions of "MAYDAY" and "PAN".
With those definitions in mind - my answer isn't "Yes" or "No" but "depends on the situation" - however, I suspect in most of the cases (and indeed, in my engine failure event) anything greater than a PAN isn't necessary.
I had a "thump" come from the engine at top of climb. MP dropped dramatically, no other indications, no increase in MP when adjusting the throttle. Was this a MAYDAY - no, of course not. I just shut the engine down and carried on to the destination (which happened to be the maintenance base). Being light, with no structural damage, and only a short journey I didn't even declare a PAN - it WAS NOT an emergency. I advised ATC of the scenario, told them there were no other problems with the aircraft and carried on.
Rest of the journey - including the approach and landing, totally uneventful.
With those definitions in mind - my answer isn't "Yes" or "No" but "depends on the situation" - however, I suspect in most of the cases (and indeed, in my engine failure event) anything greater than a PAN isn't necessary.
I had a "thump" come from the engine at top of climb. MP dropped dramatically, no other indications, no increase in MP when adjusting the throttle. Was this a MAYDAY - no, of course not. I just shut the engine down and carried on to the destination (which happened to be the maintenance base). Being light, with no structural damage, and only a short journey I didn't even declare a PAN - it WAS NOT an emergency. I advised ATC of the scenario, told them there were no other problems with the aircraft and carried on.
Rest of the journey - including the approach and landing, totally uneventful.
Luvverley!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: --
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chilli Monster,
I know MATS1 as well as you do.
What I was trying to get across was, if unsure, declare.
Downgrade if you want to, or you don't feel you need further assistance. Not all pilots are as confident as you seemingly are.
I know a lot of pilots in the single crew MEP single crew environment. Some are extremely calm and measured. Those who aren't tend to be the ones who have less experience. As far as I'm concerned, I'm there to help whoever needs that extra attention to get it. Those who don't require it all the way..... I'm there for them too.
It's what I do. I've had the fire engines out for all sorts of situations, for pilots of all different levels of experience. At the end of the day, it's a judgment call. If the pilot sounds like they're on top of it, then fine. If they don't, they need all the reassurance they can get.
Foxy
I know MATS1 as well as you do.
What I was trying to get across was, if unsure, declare.
Downgrade if you want to, or you don't feel you need further assistance. Not all pilots are as confident as you seemingly are.
I know a lot of pilots in the single crew MEP single crew environment. Some are extremely calm and measured. Those who aren't tend to be the ones who have less experience. As far as I'm concerned, I'm there to help whoever needs that extra attention to get it. Those who don't require it all the way..... I'm there for them too.
It's what I do. I've had the fire engines out for all sorts of situations, for pilots of all different levels of experience. At the end of the day, it's a judgment call. If the pilot sounds like they're on top of it, then fine. If they don't, they need all the reassurance they can get.
Foxy
Last edited by Foxy Loxy; 6th Oct 2007 at 23:08. Reason: Crap grammar. My former English teacher would have had me shot at dawn for less.