One for the twin drivers ...
Myself (and a couple of others) are merely pointing out that one engine inop isn't automatically a "mayday", and may not even be a "pan".
I hope that you don't mind if I answer on your behalf, rustle.
If the situation isn't "a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance."
Read my previous posts (if you haven't already), but IMHO (and rustle's, from what I can tell), a power unit failure whilst in the cruise in VMC shouldn't warrant an automatic 'MAYDAY' call.
Read my previous posts (if you haven't already), but IMHO (and rustle's, from what I can tell), a power unit failure whilst in the cruise in VMC shouldn't warrant an automatic 'MAYDAY' call.
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But rustle, if you don't declare a Mayday, how is ATC going to know that it has to launch a big green rescue helicopter with Charlton Heston aboard in a spirited but flawed air-to-air rescue attempt? You'll be bravely fighting the controls on your own without all that extra help that ATC can provide you with to keep your aircraft flying the right way up...
However, I have witnessed three pans. Everyone who hears the call is on the look out for the aircraft. The airways are silenced. Every possible assistance that ATC could provide comes your way. In a non controlled enviroment everyone is doing their best to stay out of your way at a time when your eyes may well not be outside the cockpit. Nothing is too much trouble.
If something unexpected happens on landing the fire and rescue services are prepared.
I lost a very good friend of mine in a light aircraft accident. The medics reckon both people were alive at the crash site and if they had been found more quickly may well have lived. They never declared a mayday or pan although talking to the AIB it was clear they knew they had a problem some considerable while before.
I agree with Astro - how can you ever be certain you know the full extent of the problem? How do you know there is no collateral damage? How do you know the problem is not about to cascade? If you have made the mayday, at least that is one less thing to worry about if the problem escalates.
I guess you are never going to be criticised for calling a mayday, but might you be for not? Captaincy it is, and in an emergency isnt that about taking every precaution at your disposal?
What possible logical justification can anyone make for not making a Mayday all?
Two distinct priorities of emergency exist for a reason. If two aircraft have emergencies at the same time, the prioritisation may be necessary. As someone who has spent a long time flying behind one engine by design, if I were able to fly satisfactorily with one engine out in a twin, I'd be uncomfortable about competing for ATS resource against an aircraft where immediate ATS assistance could really make a difference to life or death. That is the potential "cost".
If, as would usually be the case, I am the only aircraft with an emergency at the time, why does it matter whether I declare a Mayday or a Pan? ATC will devote itself to helping me regardless of the status I choose.
If you have to think about whether declaring an emergency is necessary, the decision is already made for you, just do it!
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If two aircraft have emergencies at the same time, the prioritisation may be necessary.
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I see some here are under the understandable misapprehension that the emergency response initiated by ATC will depend entirely upon whether a PAN or MAYDAY is declared.....this is not the case.
Airfields have varying levels of response which range from the fire crews opening the doors to the station and putting their snooker cues down, to a full response by airfield and local emergency services, and local NHS hospital Casualty departments being put on alert. We decide this by you, the pilot, telling us what's wrong, and in many cases our emergency orders are definitive in the category of response to certain a/c problems, such as 50% power loss on multi-engine a/c, or any hydraulic problems.
Airfields have varying levels of response which range from the fire crews opening the doors to the station and putting their snooker cues down, to a full response by airfield and local emergency services, and local NHS hospital Casualty departments being put on alert. We decide this by you, the pilot, telling us what's wrong, and in many cases our emergency orders are definitive in the category of response to certain a/c problems, such as 50% power loss on multi-engine a/c, or any hydraulic problems.
We're not disputing declaring an emergency (in the form of a 'PAN'), if the situation warrants it.
We're just saying (again, as you don't seem to be actually reading our posts), that it doesn't automatically necessitate a 'MAYDAY' call.
Ok?
has it ever happened other than where two aircraft were involved in a collision?
But the point is, if there aren't two emergencies, why does it matter whether I use the words Pan Pan or Mayday?
I personally declared two Maydays last year; one was tech related, and the other was due to a sick pax. ... if for example another Mayday call was made on the frequency with a rather more serious problem, for example smoke in the cockpit, putting all souls on board at risk, ATC will prioritise just as they are trained to.
Let me flip the situation around:
The left engine on my light twin has a habit of running hot. The right engine does not. On this particular trip, the problem with the left engine appears to have got worse, and, as I'm risk averse, I shut down the left engine as a precaution against a more serious failure. I'm holding quite happily OEO at 5000 ft overhead my destination airport, and have declared an emergency. Now you come along with your sick passenger. Who should land first? Would ATC see it that way if I had broadcast a Mayday?
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'been reading the thread with interest. Not being a twin driver, but a single, every failure is an automatic emergency. And you know what, I think that's actually very easy. Let me explain.
The posts I have read so far have all centered around what the outside world is going to do when they hear your mayday or pan call. Will ATC clear the airways for you or not, will the fire brigade come out of the shed in full force, will everybody else shut up and look out for you. That's all very fine and dandy, but there's one other thing that a mayday call will achieve.
And that is to convince yourself that you have an emergency.
We've all heard the phrase "the second engine just takes you to the scene of the accident". There's also a lot of other stories, non-aviation related, of people who got into trouble in arctic or desert condition and despite the setbacks/loss of all drinking water/malfunctioning of critical equipment/whatever, decided to carry on with the original plan. Or rather, did not decide for themselves to treat their situation as an emergency, kept on doing things towards achieving the original goal and died trying. If they would have declared themselves in an emergency (even if they had no means of telling anybody else) and then acted upon that declaration - meaning from that point on the only priority is survival - they would have lived.
One example. There's a movie about a couple with a young child who had to cross the Rocky Mountains (I think) in inclement weather. All passes were closed, except for one, they thought. They missed a "road closed" sign, got stuck in a snowdrift, car could not get out etc. Instead of the guy walking five or so miles *back* to civilization, he continued for I don't know how many miles forward, over the snowed-in pass, on foot. Spent a couple of days bunched up in a hole somewhere, several fingers and toes frozen off. I don't recall the movie exactly, but I do recall that civilization was only about five miles back down the road. If they would just have talked between themselves, came to an understanding that it was an emergency, assessed their situation, abandoned the original plan (which was to get over the mountains), and looked at what other options were available and sensible, I doubt whether the situation would have warranted the making of a movie.
So declaring an emergency has a very important psychological aspect. And that's that from that point on, your survival is the most important consideration. Saving the airplane is secondary. Exorbitant landing fees and a lot of paperwork because you landed at Heathrow without proper clearance and handing arranged - don't worry about it. Reaching your original destination - who cares. As long as you can walk away from the situation.
And as I said, if the donkey stops in a single, the decision to declare a mayday is easy. The hardest decisions are when the situation is not so clear cut. And in such a situation, if you do declare a mayday anyway, to me it means you've made your mind up. You are going to treat the situation as an emergency and make survival your first priority.
The posts I have read so far have all centered around what the outside world is going to do when they hear your mayday or pan call. Will ATC clear the airways for you or not, will the fire brigade come out of the shed in full force, will everybody else shut up and look out for you. That's all very fine and dandy, but there's one other thing that a mayday call will achieve.
And that is to convince yourself that you have an emergency.
We've all heard the phrase "the second engine just takes you to the scene of the accident". There's also a lot of other stories, non-aviation related, of people who got into trouble in arctic or desert condition and despite the setbacks/loss of all drinking water/malfunctioning of critical equipment/whatever, decided to carry on with the original plan. Or rather, did not decide for themselves to treat their situation as an emergency, kept on doing things towards achieving the original goal and died trying. If they would have declared themselves in an emergency (even if they had no means of telling anybody else) and then acted upon that declaration - meaning from that point on the only priority is survival - they would have lived.
One example. There's a movie about a couple with a young child who had to cross the Rocky Mountains (I think) in inclement weather. All passes were closed, except for one, they thought. They missed a "road closed" sign, got stuck in a snowdrift, car could not get out etc. Instead of the guy walking five or so miles *back* to civilization, he continued for I don't know how many miles forward, over the snowed-in pass, on foot. Spent a couple of days bunched up in a hole somewhere, several fingers and toes frozen off. I don't recall the movie exactly, but I do recall that civilization was only about five miles back down the road. If they would just have talked between themselves, came to an understanding that it was an emergency, assessed their situation, abandoned the original plan (which was to get over the mountains), and looked at what other options were available and sensible, I doubt whether the situation would have warranted the making of a movie.
So declaring an emergency has a very important psychological aspect. And that's that from that point on, your survival is the most important consideration. Saving the airplane is secondary. Exorbitant landing fees and a lot of paperwork because you landed at Heathrow without proper clearance and handing arranged - don't worry about it. Reaching your original destination - who cares. As long as you can walk away from the situation.
And as I said, if the donkey stops in a single, the decision to declare a mayday is easy. The hardest decisions are when the situation is not so clear cut. And in such a situation, if you do declare a mayday anyway, to me it means you've made your mind up. You are going to treat the situation as an emergency and make survival your first priority.
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Originally Posted by Astrocaryum vulgare
OK, back to the original question, the answer is yes, yes and yes again. You have lost 50% of your power and 80% of your performance if I remember my ATPLs correctly. The aircraft may not be able to climb at all under circumstances (let's say you need to divert because some numpty doing circuits has just broke the nosewheel on his Cherokee on landing). There may be secondary damage not immediately apparent. The cause of the engine failure may also effect the remaining power plant.
I think we're getting a bit lost in the semantics here.
My default response is that it isn't a "mayday" until it becomes a "mayday", whereas others have a default response that immediately an engine fails it is a "mayday".
I don't think there are many miles difference between the two views, no-one wants to die for sake of keying the mike button, it is just a differing default.
Commercial SOPS have their place and are excellent picking-grounds for private SOPS as well - but we shouldn't follow them all blindly: We'd never get airborne in the private world as we don't carry enough CC for starters.
BTW apologies for the delayed response but I had to see if the "Condle in the Wind" woman got through tonight
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Certainly. I'm not sure it's as infrequent as you might think.
so there are two aircraft on frequency both "working" a mayday.
So whats the chances of them both arriving at the runway at the same time, even if ATC dont prioritise?
I appreciate ATC do not want a blocked runway and that may be a factor in prioritising, but I would far rather they do their job in terms of assessing who is most at risk, and who should go where, and leave me to manage the aircraft - after all I am not sure I want anything else to worry about.
In short maybe your argument actually supports declaring a mayday.
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We're talking about light twins and being a "private flying" forum not nescessarily commercial ops. We have a few posters who have lots of experience, and a few who have maybe done their ATPL exams and know it all as usual, and then get arsey if someone disagrees with them.
In the PRIVATE world, we have choices. We can CHOOSE to declare a mayday or NOT, depending on the situation. In the COMMERCIAL world you don't have choices, but company SOPs. In the airline video, they declared a mayday. Were they in grave danger? Not at all, these aeroplanes are designed to fly on 1 engine & once shut down the popping and exhause flames stopped. Of course you have 200 souls in the back, so company SOPs (and no doubt legislation) dictate you declare a mayday, and being a far more complex aeroplane than a light twin, it is hard to visually assess the amount of damage done so a mayday was appropriate, and also gave the FO something to do other than operate the gear and flaps.
If I am flying a twin, and I shut down one engine, I maybe able to climb quite happily. Where is the grave danger now? Sure I may urgently want to get on the ground, but my life is not in danger at the moment - I am flying along ok, gaining altitude, so now I have to remember my training and make the best of a bad situation. Of course if the engine lets go, takes part of the wing with it and causes a fire it is a completely different matter...
Common sense, if you feel the need to declare mayday, then do so, if not then you don't have to.....ATC can't do a whole lot on the ground other than move people out of the way.
Bye.
In the PRIVATE world, we have choices. We can CHOOSE to declare a mayday or NOT, depending on the situation. In the COMMERCIAL world you don't have choices, but company SOPs. In the airline video, they declared a mayday. Were they in grave danger? Not at all, these aeroplanes are designed to fly on 1 engine & once shut down the popping and exhause flames stopped. Of course you have 200 souls in the back, so company SOPs (and no doubt legislation) dictate you declare a mayday, and being a far more complex aeroplane than a light twin, it is hard to visually assess the amount of damage done so a mayday was appropriate, and also gave the FO something to do other than operate the gear and flaps.
If I am flying a twin, and I shut down one engine, I maybe able to climb quite happily. Where is the grave danger now? Sure I may urgently want to get on the ground, but my life is not in danger at the moment - I am flying along ok, gaining altitude, so now I have to remember my training and make the best of a bad situation. Of course if the engine lets go, takes part of the wing with it and causes a fire it is a completely different matter...
Common sense, if you feel the need to declare mayday, then do so, if not then you don't have to.....ATC can't do a whole lot on the ground other than move people out of the way.
Bye.
Last edited by englishal; 8th Oct 2007 at 04:17.
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In a multi crew turbine aircraft you have a surplus of power and resources on your side. You have a wider range of engine monitoring, fire suppression and redundancy at your disposal. Finally you have two pilots who are current and practiced in handling an engine failure. In spite of all that, the standard procedure is to declare a matday.
Yes, I hear you say, because commercial operators will bias their procedures towards safety and towards standardising the response of their pilots, but I don’t think for a moment that negates a respect for their response to an engine failure.
Yes, I hear you say, because commercial operators will bias their procedures towards safety and towards standardising the response of their pilots, but I don’t think for a moment that negates a respect for their response to an engine failure.
Not being a twin driver, but a single, every failure is an automatic emergency.
How about intermittent problems? Let's say the engine misfires once, just coughs a little (maybe, did I really hear it cough?) and recovers. Are you going to divert to Heathrow if that happens to be the nearest place with a hard runway? Thousands of pounds of costs and huge disruption for the commercial traffic -- hey, don't worry about it, you might have an engine problem. Well "As long as you can walk away from the situation". "Your survival is the most important consideration".
That's all very fine and dandy, but there's one other thing that a mayday call will achieve.
And that is to convince yourself that you have an emergency.
And that is to convince yourself that you have an emergency.
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Not sure what the point is of supposing the experience of posters. Somebody who knows only the theory has plenty contribute IMHO. To coin another naff saying "The best pilots make the worst mistakes".
With regard to commercial vs private ops, I don't see the distinction other than SOPs are an amalgam of experience of considerable depth. Not some contrived H&S initiative.
The common sense angle is the usual backstop when all other attempts at reasoning have failed When the term is used it usually implies that you don't know the answer to the problem, but that you can arrive at an unverifiable good decision by interpolating what you do know based on some subjective values (hopefully you get my drift, words aren't my strong point). The Mayday advocates are saying that there are numerous factors that can mess things up and that as an individual in a non-normal situation with a failed critical component that at best adversely affects the controllability and performance of the aircraft, your first port of call is for assistance to give you room to understand the problem and confirm that the failure is as normally non-normal as much as one can hope.
With regard to commercial vs private ops, I don't see the distinction other than SOPs are an amalgam of experience of considerable depth. Not some contrived H&S initiative.
The common sense angle is the usual backstop when all other attempts at reasoning have failed
When the term is used it usually implies that you don't know the answer to the problem, but that you can arrive at an unverifiable good decision by interpolating what you do know based on some subjective values (hopefully you get my drift, words aren't my strong point). The Mayday advocates are saying that there are numerous factors that can mess things up and that as an individual in a non-normal situation with a failed critical component that at best adversely affects the controllability and performance of the aircraft, your first port of call is for assistance to give you room to understand the problem and confirm that the failure is as normally non-normal as much as one can hope.
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Every failure? The clock? The VSI maybe? How about the second altimeter?
Thousands of pounds of costs and huge disruption for the commercial traffic -- hey, don't worry about it, you might have an engine problem.
With regard to commercial vs private ops, I don't see the distinction other than SOPs are an amalgam of experience of considerable depth. Not some contrived H&S initiative.