One for the twin drivers ...
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I agree with Chilli and Rustle......
Otherwise everytime you shut down an engine for training, or pull then power back to 40% to descend, you'd have to call Mayday.
Mayday really means "help, we could very easily die unless we get some help very soon". When an engine fails on a twin, this could be the case or it could be a "bugger, better turn around the engine has gone". Pan means "We have a problem which could get worse, can we get some help please"...
To be honest, it is just words anyway. If you have an emergency you fly the plane and then tell whoever...
Otherwise everytime you shut down an engine for training, or pull then power back to 40% to descend, you'd have to call Mayday.
Mayday really means "help, we could very easily die unless we get some help very soon". When an engine fails on a twin, this could be the case or it could be a "bugger, better turn around the engine has gone". Pan means "We have a problem which could get worse, can we get some help please"...
To be honest, it is just words anyway. If you have an emergency you fly the plane and then tell whoever...
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The problem with getting this across is highlighted in one word from HWD's post above Panic. Can someone please explain the link between Mayday and Panic?
Regardless of the opinions about what is or is not a Mayday in relation to an engine failure, the received training by people who make their living flying these things around Europe is not only specific but also totally logical. The name of the game is to give yourself room, keep as many options open as possible and account for the thing you didn't think of. As an engine is a critical component, there are potential ramifications that are not at first obvious. The absolutely last thing you need when single engine is to go-around or be generally delayed by traffic and other stuff. If you have told ATC that you are single engine, then I can't imagine that they would treat it as anything else, but it is probably be a mistake to assume that they will treat the situation as would expect unless you as commander unambiguously told them exactly what you want and expect.
So, if after trying to correct the situation, you are still with one engine, the initial Mayday will maximise the time available for everybody to ensure the above. As said by me and Foxy, downgrade if appropriate.
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 7th Oct 2007 at 08:09.
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Originally Posted by Three Yellows
... so like everything in aviation, ask a group of 'n' pilots a seemingly straightforward question and get at least 3n answers!
Simplistically these are:
On the one hand various people (myself included) are suggesting that each situation of engine failure is different and a "mayday" call is just one of many tools in the captain's toolbox;
On the other hand some people are trying to insist that the captain has no discretion about handling an event onboard his/her aircraft.
Remember, the original question wasn't about EFATO (my bolding below).
Originally Posted by FullyFlapped
If you lose a donkey whilst pootling along in your twin, do you declare a mayday ?
FF
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Being light, with no structural damage, and only a short journey I didn't even declare a PAN - it WAS NOT an emergency. I advised ATC of the scenario, told them there were no other problems with the aircraft and carried on.
Was the approach effectively "cleared" for you?
If, on the approach, a go around had proved necessary because another aircraft was slow to depart what would you have done?
Flight crew can declare emergencies at two levels: Pan and Mayday. A Pan call concerns the safety of an aircraft, or of a person on board, where immediate assistance is not required. A Mayday call is the more serious. A Mayday call does not necessarily indicate that the aircraft is in imminent danger but that the crew requires urgent attention from the air traffic controller.
This is what Lord Oldham said in the House when asked.
I wonder what definitions we each have in mind?
Just a quick re-cap for DFC et al:
So my money's with Chilli, rustle et al. If anything, declare a PAN (to warn ATC that things aren't quite hunky dory). If the second engine should go, then declare MAYDAY.
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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The video of the airliner is very interesting, I've never seen that before. Very well handled.
Incidentally, I would consider that it backs up my original post. There was a fire, therefore it's a Mayday. Fire does nasty things to materials, and I have no idea whether any structural damage has been caused, so for me, it's a Mayday every time, even if the fire has gone out.
But, as Fuji says, it makes no difference anyway, because ATC will take their own view on how serious the incident is. I remember a few years ago when I had a sticky fuel drain on a C172. It appeared to be closed, and did not drip or leak on the ground, but on rotation the extra air pressure under the wing forced it open, and we saw a slow, steady stream of fuel coming out of the drain. I did not consider it an emergency - we had full tanks of fuel and weren't going to run out, and the fuel that was escaping was vapourising and not causing any concern. With hindsight, that was probably a bad call - in the same situation again, I would declare a Mayday (because I couldn't really be sure of either of those two things). But, in any case, I just told ATC that we'd be returning with a suspected fuel leak, could we please have a visual circuit. And guess what they did? Cleared me to land on any runway, and sent the fire trucks out to meet me. Absolutely the correct thing to do, regardless of what calls I may or may not have made.
FFF
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Incidentally, I would consider that it backs up my original post. There was a fire, therefore it's a Mayday. Fire does nasty things to materials, and I have no idea whether any structural damage has been caused, so for me, it's a Mayday every time, even if the fire has gone out.
But, as Fuji says, it makes no difference anyway, because ATC will take their own view on how serious the incident is. I remember a few years ago when I had a sticky fuel drain on a C172. It appeared to be closed, and did not drip or leak on the ground, but on rotation the extra air pressure under the wing forced it open, and we saw a slow, steady stream of fuel coming out of the drain. I did not consider it an emergency - we had full tanks of fuel and weren't going to run out, and the fuel that was escaping was vapourising and not causing any concern. With hindsight, that was probably a bad call - in the same situation again, I would declare a Mayday (because I couldn't really be sure of either of those two things). But, in any case, I just told ATC that we'd be returning with a suspected fuel leak, could we please have a visual circuit. And guess what they did? Cleared me to land on any runway, and sent the fire trucks out to meet me. Absolutely the correct thing to do, regardless of what calls I may or may not have made.
FFF
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Yet another thread that's really a discussion about egos........
"I'm right and you're wrong"
"No, no, I'm right and you're wrong"
"No, no, I'm right and so's my wife!"
PLEASE STOP BITCHING. YOU'RE LIKE A BUNCH OF OLD LADIES AT BINGO!
Remember: there's no such thing as a good or a bad decision, there's just decisions.
However, NOT MAKING ONE AT ALL IS BAD!
"I'm right and you're wrong"
"No, no, I'm right and you're wrong"
"No, no, I'm right and so's my wife!"
PLEASE STOP BITCHING. YOU'RE LIKE A BUNCH OF OLD LADIES AT BINGO!
Remember: there's no such thing as a good or a bad decision, there's just decisions.
However, NOT MAKING ONE AT ALL IS BAD!
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FFF,
I agree with your personal critique from your description of your fuel scenario. I don't believe it is up to ATC to decide how the situation should be handled, but in the absence of any clear instructions from the pilot, they can be trusted to make the sensible decision on your behalf. But I don't believe that is the point.
Bravo,
For the scenario we are discussing here, I believe that a useless engine on a twin does required immediate assistance, it is a distinct threat to the safety of the aircraft and certain measures should be put in place to mitigate. I can understand why people believe that a Mayday is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but I suspect there is a distinct possibility that the size of the nut is often times not fully appreciated.
I agree with your personal critique from your description of your fuel scenario. I don't believe it is up to ATC to decide how the situation should be handled, but in the absence of any clear instructions from the pilot, they can be trusted to make the sensible decision on your behalf. But I don't believe that is the point.
Bravo,
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
Bravo,
For the scenario we are discussing here, I believe that a useless engine on a twin does required immediate assistance, it is a distinct threat to the safety of the aircraft and certain measures should be put in place to mitigate. I can understand why people believe that a Mayday is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but I suspect there is a distinct possibility that the size of the nut is often times not fully appreciated.
For the scenario we are discussing here, I believe that a useless engine on a twin does required immediate assistance, it is a distinct threat to the safety of the aircraft and certain measures should be put in place to mitigate. I can understand why people believe that a Mayday is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but I suspect there is a distinct possibility that the size of the nut is often times not fully appreciated.
In this scenario, I don't think that losing an engine requires a automatic 'MAYDAY'. If all other things remain equal (and I had no reason to believe that the cause of failure might lead to a failure of the second power unit ie contaminated fuel or icing for example), then I am now effectively flying a 'single'. I might be performance limited for certain flight profiles, but it's still a 'single'.
Does flying a single engine aircraft necessitate a 'MAYDAY' call?
And just to refresh, the 'scenario' makes no mention of VMC or IMC. My presumption is that 'pootling' implies nice, VMC conditions.
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My God - this is a Private Flying forum!
The guy asked a simple question and received all the options he needs in the first and third responses. What is the purpose of this ongoing debate; to totally confuse and demoralise him?
I think a lot of posters here need to grow up and K.I.S.S. - save the CRM discussions for a more appropriate place.
The guy asked a simple question and received all the options he needs in the first and third responses. What is the purpose of this ongoing debate; to totally confuse and demoralise him?
I think a lot of posters here need to grow up and K.I.S.S. - save the CRM discussions for a more appropriate place.
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My God - this is a Private Flying forum!
Yet another thread that's really a discussion about egos........
Egos, maybe, but that is part of flying, and best you understand it is, so when the fella's ego in the seat next to you gets the better of the safety of the flight you have a chance to spot it.
.. .. .. if you dont want to take part in the discussion, thats fine,
.. .. .. if you have nothing useful to contribute .. .. ..
.. .. .. and if you want one word answers, then Flyer is the place for you
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Originally Posted by stickandrudderman
Remember: there's no such thing as a good or a bad decision, there's just decisions.
However, NOT MAKING ONE AT ALL IS BAD!
However, NOT MAKING ONE AT ALL IS BAD!
Shutting down the wrong engine sounds like an inexcusably bad decision;
Overflying instead of landing at a suitable airfield when engine-out sounds like a bad decision in a light twin;
Leaving the PIC to decide whether any situation is a "mayday" or "PAN" (rather than decide it in advance here) sounds like a good decision
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Looks like we've got ourselves a new moderator.....
Sorry to be so forthright but I feel that neither of these posts contriubuted anything at all to the discussion, and they could probably have been made on pretty much any other thread on PPRuNe. For that reason I thought these comments were pointless and it would have been far better to just not take part.
Thinking again about this thread it does seem to me there is a reasonably subtle different between a pan and a mayday, if not in the precise meaning, certainly in the way ATC react.
My single pan in a sep produced a full ATC response with fire engines in hot pursuit down the runway.
On balance I can see Rustle and others point of view - but I still feel that you may as well have the full attention of AT. After all how often do engine failures occur in a twin or for that matter other events "justifying" a mayday. Have the full attention of AT on hopefully the very few occasions it happens and for sure if I am in the area it will not inconvenience me one bit. I will just be say a silent prayer that it all works out well for you.
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Originally Posted by Astrocaryum vulgare
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR SAFETY, IF IN DOUBT, DECLARE AN EMERGENCY!!
Myself (and a couple of others) are merely pointing out that one engine inop isn't automatically a "mayday", and may not even be a "pan".
If there's a doubt about amount of damage, flyability, making it back, existing circuit traffic, etc., etc., then a "mayday" will clear the traffic and get you the attention you need. No argument.
If there's no doubt about amount of damage, flyability, making it back, existing circuit traffic, etc., etc., then it ain't a "mayday".
This isn't bravado, it's just reaching a different conclusion when presented with similar circumstances.
BTW, coming here and calling people "dummies" because they don't subscribe to your opinion doesn't generally help either.
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DFC
You quote the pilot on the video who rightly called a Mayday. He and I are both commercial pilots who fly regularly and practice single-engine approaches and go-arounds every six months. The difference is that he had a catastrophic engine failure on departure, probably with a full pax load, which should always be a mayday on a twin unless you are perf A and very light. I had an engine stop producing thrust, at 4000 feet on 10 nm final for a decent length runway with two qualified pilots on board (a single-crew aircraft). Once I established that I could make the runway I did not "require immediate assistance", apart from the priority given anyway to a pan.
You quote the pilot on the video who rightly called a Mayday. He and I are both commercial pilots who fly regularly and practice single-engine approaches and go-arounds every six months. The difference is that he had a catastrophic engine failure on departure, probably with a full pax load, which should always be a mayday on a twin unless you are perf A and very light. I had an engine stop producing thrust, at 4000 feet on 10 nm final for a decent length runway with two qualified pilots on board (a single-crew aircraft). Once I established that I could make the runway I did not "require immediate assistance", apart from the priority given anyway to a pan.