Joining on long final...... why?
Join Date: Jun 2000
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IO540 you make some valid points, and I agree that we are, to a certain extent, trying to find the "least worst" method of joining the circuit.
However, in response to some of your points -
The straight-in approach, by definition, works only from one direction - the SOJ works from all directions.
If several aircraft arrive together, it is surely better for them to space themselves while either orbiting at 2000' or while descending deadside than to all try to barge in together? Also, if there are few gaps, how and where do they hold pending a gap, if they all arrive at circuit height?
It is not just the arriving pilot's convenience that needs to be considered. It is arguably more important to consider the matter from those who are already established in the circuit.
With the OHJ, arriving aircraft are filtered in from the crosswind leg so there is one principal area for the circuit flyer to watch for arriving traffic.
You mention a tightly packed circuit; if you are circling at 2000' waiting for a gap to join, that surely has to be better than being at the same level as and increasing the density of traffic at circuit height.
Your TCAS point is largely irrelevant for the type of GA operation we are are considering.
The SOJ is not used "to make life hard". If properly understood and carried out, it is no more difficult or risky than any other method and it has the major advantage that joiners arrive in an orderly manner. It also caters for both radio and non-radio arrivals and provides the ability to inspect the signals square from overhead and to orientate the pilot who may be at an unfamiliar airfield.
I realise there are two distinct views on the Standard Overhead Join procedure. I believe it needs to be in every pilot's repertoire for use at the appropriate time. Regrettably, that seems not to be the case - so it should have more emphasis in both initial and recurrent training. It is a Standard procedure which, if all were properly conversant with it, would serve to enhance safety on the many occasions when undisciplined arrivals just "happen".
JD
However, in response to some of your points -
The straight-in approach, by definition, works only from one direction - the SOJ works from all directions.
If several aircraft arrive together, it is surely better for them to space themselves while either orbiting at 2000' or while descending deadside than to all try to barge in together? Also, if there are few gaps, how and where do they hold pending a gap, if they all arrive at circuit height?
It is not just the arriving pilot's convenience that needs to be considered. It is arguably more important to consider the matter from those who are already established in the circuit.
With the OHJ, arriving aircraft are filtered in from the crosswind leg so there is one principal area for the circuit flyer to watch for arriving traffic.
You mention a tightly packed circuit; if you are circling at 2000' waiting for a gap to join, that surely has to be better than being at the same level as and increasing the density of traffic at circuit height.
Your TCAS point is largely irrelevant for the type of GA operation we are are considering.
The SOJ is not used "to make life hard". If properly understood and carried out, it is no more difficult or risky than any other method and it has the major advantage that joiners arrive in an orderly manner. It also caters for both radio and non-radio arrivals and provides the ability to inspect the signals square from overhead and to orientate the pilot who may be at an unfamiliar airfield.
I realise there are two distinct views on the Standard Overhead Join procedure. I believe it needs to be in every pilot's repertoire for use at the appropriate time. Regrettably, that seems not to be the case - so it should have more emphasis in both initial and recurrent training. It is a Standard procedure which, if all were properly conversant with it, would serve to enhance safety on the many occasions when undisciplined arrivals just "happen".
JD
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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I will often ask an A/G operator "Is there any other traffic about, and do you like or dislike straight-in approaches?"
I'm not asking for instructions, and it leaves them clear to say what they choose. More than once I've had "No other traffic; we prefer straight-in, offset to avoid XXX, to keep the neighbours happy". No problem.
If I've heard other traffic on frequency making an SOJ, I know what to expect and will plan for the same. Some places seem to like SOJ even if there's nobody else around - fair enough. I did one at Beccles last week!
SOJ isn't exactly difficult, once I've managed to visualise it in my mind. Something like "descending turn on the deadside to cross the upwind end of the runway in use, over the numbers, at circuit height" as I recall. But then "home" is full ATC with radar, and joins are invariably the most efficient way to slot into the existing traffic.
I fly pretty tight circuits - and still I get cut up at A/G fields by others joining on base leg, or long final. One day I'll forget my manners...
I'm not asking for instructions, and it leaves them clear to say what they choose. More than once I've had "No other traffic; we prefer straight-in, offset to avoid XXX, to keep the neighbours happy". No problem.
If I've heard other traffic on frequency making an SOJ, I know what to expect and will plan for the same. Some places seem to like SOJ even if there's nobody else around - fair enough. I did one at Beccles last week!
SOJ isn't exactly difficult, once I've managed to visualise it in my mind. Something like "descending turn on the deadside to cross the upwind end of the runway in use, over the numbers, at circuit height" as I recall. But then "home" is full ATC with radar, and joins are invariably the most efficient way to slot into the existing traffic.
I fly pretty tight circuits - and still I get cut up at A/G fields by others joining on base leg, or long final. One day I'll forget my manners...
The Original Whirly
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The way I was taught overhead joins....
Fly overhead the airfield at 2000 ft; turn in the circuit direction.
When you cross the numbers of the runway you'll be landing on, you're entering the deadside.
No visualisation needed.
Fly overhead the airfield at 2000 ft; turn in the circuit direction.
When you cross the numbers of the runway you'll be landing on, you're entering the deadside.
No visualisation needed.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Originally Posted by Whirlybird
The way I was taught overhead joins....
Fly overhead the airfield at 2000 ft; turn in the circuit direction.
When you cross the numbers of the runway you'll be landing on, you're entering the deadside.
Fly overhead the airfield at 2000 ft; turn in the circuit direction.
When you cross the numbers of the runway you'll be landing on, you're entering the deadside.
Now, why can't all pilots understand that ... ?
JD
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Now, why can't all pilots understand that ... ?
It is really about being adaptable and joining in the most expeditious way given the conditions and traffic.
Last edited by cotterpot; 14th Aug 2007 at 07:53. Reason: sp
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Actually it is amazing how many people ask for "joining instructions" from an A/G operator, or other instructions which they cannot give. I've often wondered how to request their "preferred" join without asking for "instructions"? I guess sometimes plain English is best "ABC radio, GABCD 10 miles south at 2000 for landing request airfield information and preferred join" or something?
If I am approaching from the dead side I'll always join from the dead side so long as there is an A/G operator giving me weather info. It saves numerous turns and should enable you to nicely slot in with circuit traffic.
If I am approaching from the dead side I'll always join from the dead side so long as there is an A/G operator giving me weather info. It saves numerous turns and should enable you to nicely slot in with circuit traffic.
SOJ Orientation
When conducting a Standard Overhead Join, if it's a left hand circuit turn the aircraft to place the aerodrome on the left hand side of the nose (ie 10 to 11 oclock), if it's a right hand circuit turn the aircraft to place the aerodrome on the right hand side of the nose (ie 1 to 2 oclock position). You then fly in turning flight keeping the aerodrome on the left (left hand circuit) or right (right hand circuit) at a minimum (ideally) of circuit height plus 1,000 ft until the landing runway is at the 9 oclock positon (left hand circuit) or 3 oclock position (right hand circuit). You are then on the dead side and may commence descent to circuit height in a descending turn to cross the upwind end of the runway in level flight at circuit height.
With students I find that if they get their initial orientation correct by turning to place the aerodrome on the correct side of the nose of the a/c the rest of the SOJ is quite straightforward.
Of course if the cloud base is too low a SOJ is not safe because you dont have enough vertical separation from aircraft in the circuit on the live side. For example if the circuit height is 800 ft and the cloudbase is 1,200 ft you would need to remain well clear of the live side in certain cases and let down to circuit height before joining deadside.
During training students need to be taught SOJs and "commercial joins" (ie straight in, base leg etc) because they may be called upon to do either depending on where they are intending to land. I find that in many cases those that learn to fly at controlled airports (licensed ATSU) struggle when they fly to an "airfield" with only A/G and have to start making their own decisions as to how to organise a join with respect to other traffic when previously they have been used to be instructed what to do by ATC.
Sorry to say it but in my opinion A/G operators have to be careful how they answer this sort of question due to liability in the event of an accident. They can say there is no reported traffic; if they reply in the affirm that they "like" straight-in approaches and you collide with the other a/c on finals I would not like to be in the shoes of the A/G operator at the subsequent court case. The only thing an A/G can give you is "information" and I personally think it is unfair and indeed incorrect to ask them something which they are not entitled to comment on.
With students I find that if they get their initial orientation correct by turning to place the aerodrome on the correct side of the nose of the a/c the rest of the SOJ is quite straightforward.
Of course if the cloud base is too low a SOJ is not safe because you dont have enough vertical separation from aircraft in the circuit on the live side. For example if the circuit height is 800 ft and the cloudbase is 1,200 ft you would need to remain well clear of the live side in certain cases and let down to circuit height before joining deadside.
During training students need to be taught SOJs and "commercial joins" (ie straight in, base leg etc) because they may be called upon to do either depending on where they are intending to land. I find that in many cases those that learn to fly at controlled airports (licensed ATSU) struggle when they fly to an "airfield" with only A/G and have to start making their own decisions as to how to organise a join with respect to other traffic when previously they have been used to be instructed what to do by ATC.
I will often ask an A/G operator "Is there any other traffic about, and do you like or dislike straight-in approaches?"
