piper cherokee 140 or cessna which is more dangerous to spin?
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birdlady and all the others ofcourse thank you the great info. I was also asking this question because I might be one of those new instructors as I am thinking of getting my instructor's rating and teach others to fly . birdlady did you do alot of spins in the cherokee 140 as I am trying to decide to go to a school that has cessnas in one and cherokee 140s in the other. I don't know which school to attend and take the instructor's course as both have offered my emplyment afterwards.
So, I would like to tell you about my first spin experience. My instructor took me up way back in 1981 when I first started to fly at the age of 15 and told me he will show me a stall. Well the stall ended up being a spin and down we went, scared the crap out of me and I wasn't feeling very well after that so I told him let's go back and we did. For a very long time after that flight I was very nervous of spins but eventually you have to bite the bullet and during my commercial flight test I had to and I did them very well actually and this was in a cherokee 140 as I did my commercial licence on this airplane as opposed that first stall spin in a cessna 150.
My thoughts and questions to you guys out there that know a little bit more than me, for me that has gotten much better in doing spins but is not an expert on which airplane should I attempt in getting the instructor rating which would help me learn more about spins and teaching this to my prospective future students?
I was thinking of taking an aerobatic course that teaches spin awareness in an aerobat 152 that would take me through 25 spins over a two day span down in California, I live in Canada.
Any ideas, suggestions, comments or things that you would different would be much appreciated as I am trying to make a decision.
thank you very much and looking forward to your expert comments.
kloe
So, I would like to tell you about my first spin experience. My instructor took me up way back in 1981 when I first started to fly at the age of 15 and told me he will show me a stall. Well the stall ended up being a spin and down we went, scared the crap out of me and I wasn't feeling very well after that so I told him let's go back and we did. For a very long time after that flight I was very nervous of spins but eventually you have to bite the bullet and during my commercial flight test I had to and I did them very well actually and this was in a cherokee 140 as I did my commercial licence on this airplane as opposed that first stall spin in a cessna 150.
My thoughts and questions to you guys out there that know a little bit more than me, for me that has gotten much better in doing spins but is not an expert on which airplane should I attempt in getting the instructor rating which would help me learn more about spins and teaching this to my prospective future students?
I was thinking of taking an aerobatic course that teaches spin awareness in an aerobat 152 that would take me through 25 spins over a two day span down in California, I live in Canada.
Any ideas, suggestions, comments or things that you would different would be much appreciated as I am trying to make a decision.
thank you very much and looking forward to your expert comments.
kloe
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Sounds like you have your head screwed on right.
The areo's course sounds fun. But personally I would go and do it on something more spirited than a piper or a cessna. Then when you go back to instructing in them everything will be slow time.
As for which type to do the instructors course in...... the cheapest
The areo's course sounds fun. But personally I would go and do it on something more spirited than a piper or a cessna. Then when you go back to instructing in them everything will be slow time.
As for which type to do the instructors course in...... the cheapest
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Cessna spins
Cessna 150/152/Aerobats spin very nicely, and it is a low-risk situation. The "King of Spins" is William Kirchner who now lives in Tennessee and has done several thousand (!) spins in 150s. He wrote the Aerobat manual for Cessna. If you learned to fly in the US, his name will be familiar to you.
The runner-up for this title is Rich Stowall in California, who teaches a course on unusual attitude recovery, and there is flight time involved, so it isn't just a lecture. Rich sometimes goes around to aviation events and offers his course there.
The 150/152/Aerobat spin recovery is very standard (stop rotation with rudder, yoke forward, throttle back), and the alternative is to let go of everything (as in "Oh Sh*T!") whereupon the airplane goes into a spiral.
172s are a bit different - they should NOT be spun with anything or anybody in the rear seats. The aft CG can make recovery difficult. Read the POH carefully before attempting this.
Tomahawks are a different situation. The airplane will spin, but a lot of people are nervous about Tomahawks. When Piper designed the airplane, it was to have been a modern trainer, and they talked to many flight instructors and asked them what they wanted in a trainer (what a novel idea!). One of the things they said was "we want it to do a proper stall."
Well, the original Tomahawk did proper stalls - and promptly scared the bejesus out of student pilots and instructors both, who were used to the almost non-event of Cessna or Cherokee stalls. Piper added stall strips to the wings to "tame" the airplane, and that helped. There were also a series of AD notes regarding the T-tail (and a bunch of other things as well) and a mandatory engine mount repair or replacement.
There are some flight schools which teach in Tomahawks, but when it is time to do stalls, they take out the Cessna for that. Tomahawks are starting to go away because there is an 11,000 hour life-rating on the main spar and the cost to comply is astronomical. 11,000 hours sounds like forever from now if the airplane is new, but 7,000 or 9,000 hours on trainers isn't unusual nowadays. Some Beechcraft also have this problem, and the weeping and wailing of the owners is awesome to behold.
I don't know about spins in Cherokees - anyone have experience here?
Best Regards,
Echo Mike
The runner-up for this title is Rich Stowall in California, who teaches a course on unusual attitude recovery, and there is flight time involved, so it isn't just a lecture. Rich sometimes goes around to aviation events and offers his course there.
The 150/152/Aerobat spin recovery is very standard (stop rotation with rudder, yoke forward, throttle back), and the alternative is to let go of everything (as in "Oh Sh*T!") whereupon the airplane goes into a spiral.
172s are a bit different - they should NOT be spun with anything or anybody in the rear seats. The aft CG can make recovery difficult. Read the POH carefully before attempting this.
Tomahawks are a different situation. The airplane will spin, but a lot of people are nervous about Tomahawks. When Piper designed the airplane, it was to have been a modern trainer, and they talked to many flight instructors and asked them what they wanted in a trainer (what a novel idea!). One of the things they said was "we want it to do a proper stall."
Well, the original Tomahawk did proper stalls - and promptly scared the bejesus out of student pilots and instructors both, who were used to the almost non-event of Cessna or Cherokee stalls. Piper added stall strips to the wings to "tame" the airplane, and that helped. There were also a series of AD notes regarding the T-tail (and a bunch of other things as well) and a mandatory engine mount repair or replacement.
There are some flight schools which teach in Tomahawks, but when it is time to do stalls, they take out the Cessna for that. Tomahawks are starting to go away because there is an 11,000 hour life-rating on the main spar and the cost to comply is astronomical. 11,000 hours sounds like forever from now if the airplane is new, but 7,000 or 9,000 hours on trainers isn't unusual nowadays. Some Beechcraft also have this problem, and the weeping and wailing of the owners is awesome to behold.
I don't know about spins in Cherokees - anyone have experience here?
Best Regards,
Echo Mike
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Hello Kloe, and others,
I suggest that you not worry too much about which type of aircraft you should choose for spin training, spin both types! Bear in mind that any aircraft type you are likely to find yourself training in, has shown, as a part of it's original design approval flying, the ability to enter and recover from a spin (refer to Canadian Standard AWM523.221, Spinning. It can be found on the Transport Canada website. It will probably be the same as the FAA standard).
To make the best use of your flight training dollar, I invite you to think of the instuctor not as much as a person who is going to "teach" you everything, but more as a person who will keep you safe while you learn for yourself, and offer helpful tips along the way. Yes, the instructor might demonstrate sometimes, but it is really up to you to embark on your flight prepared, and with an objective - perfecting spin recovery perhaps. (The foregoing does not apply to aerobatics - that does require qualified demonstration before attempting!) (and a 152 Aerbat is a good choice).
Before you fly, read, research ask questions of other pilots (which is why I'm responding to you). Understand what the manufacturer says about flying their aircraft. Then get in the aircraft with your instructor, and take them for a flight which is safe, and beneficial to you. They should not need to fly very much, if you were prepared when you got in.
There will be many things that you will encounter in the air, which will cause you to very rapidly have to call up an accurate recollection of what the aircraft manufacturer said to do ('cause there won't be time to look it the book then), and there will not be an instructor with you. Learn to fly - not any particular type, but as many as you can. Learn to feel what any type is telling you during each phase of flight, there's a lot more similarity there than you'd think - they are all certified to standards with very similar requirements. They don't get to pass unless they do what the test pilot is expecting them to do!
I regularly spin my Cessna 150 to keep myself fresh. I have spun many types, including Cherokees and Tomhawks, and recently, a float equipped Cessna 185 with a survey boom out the back, and a Lake Amphibian with a boom out 12' the front, and a Cessna 207 with wing pylons. These were test flights, and I was by myself. I had to learn fast! The 185 lost 1000' and went beyond straight down during the first recovery - due wholly to overly casual recovery technique on my part! The second, and subsequent spin recoveries were much better! The Lake spins beautifully, but requires a strong rudder foot to get a crisp recovery. The 207 is heavy but pleasent. I've even spun an Ercoupe, but it was really hard to get it into a spin with no rudder pedals, and of couse, I had no way of holding it in! It came out on its own, as advertised on the placard.
The 150/152/172 will find their own way out of a spin eventually, but it's a sloppy way to fly. Apply anything like what the book says to do to get out, and the recovery is quite presentable.
One comment about Cherokees, which would also apply to a Cessna 177, is that pitch control is via a stabilator, as opposed to stabilizer/elevator. At large control surface angles of attack, there is the possibility of stalling the whole flying surface. (Early C177's had an AD about this) The stabilizer/elevator combination seems more resistant to this, perhaps due to the effective increase in camber of the flying surface as a whole during high pitch angle flying. This effect is noticable during soft field takeoffs, where the stabilator seems to produce a whole lot of drag (defeating accelleration) and not the desired amount of lift (down) to keep the nose high. If you manage to get airborne this way, the lack of climb performance is alarming!
Novice vs experienced flying instructor? Fly with them both. The novice is fresh, and deserves the same chance to advance their career as you will want. And remember, they are there mostly to provide a safe environment within which you will learn for yourself. The oldtimer will be relaxed, and have lots of "been there, done that" good advice. And, they'll keep you safe too. If you don't feel safe, tell them so, and ask their opinion of your feeling. Then tell them that you are going to give yourself a bigger margin of safety and try again.
Good luck in finding the experience you are looking for. It's all out there somewhere, just find it safely!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
I suggest that you not worry too much about which type of aircraft you should choose for spin training, spin both types! Bear in mind that any aircraft type you are likely to find yourself training in, has shown, as a part of it's original design approval flying, the ability to enter and recover from a spin (refer to Canadian Standard AWM523.221, Spinning. It can be found on the Transport Canada website. It will probably be the same as the FAA standard).
To make the best use of your flight training dollar, I invite you to think of the instuctor not as much as a person who is going to "teach" you everything, but more as a person who will keep you safe while you learn for yourself, and offer helpful tips along the way. Yes, the instructor might demonstrate sometimes, but it is really up to you to embark on your flight prepared, and with an objective - perfecting spin recovery perhaps. (The foregoing does not apply to aerobatics - that does require qualified demonstration before attempting!) (and a 152 Aerbat is a good choice).
Before you fly, read, research ask questions of other pilots (which is why I'm responding to you). Understand what the manufacturer says about flying their aircraft. Then get in the aircraft with your instructor, and take them for a flight which is safe, and beneficial to you. They should not need to fly very much, if you were prepared when you got in.
There will be many things that you will encounter in the air, which will cause you to very rapidly have to call up an accurate recollection of what the aircraft manufacturer said to do ('cause there won't be time to look it the book then), and there will not be an instructor with you. Learn to fly - not any particular type, but as many as you can. Learn to feel what any type is telling you during each phase of flight, there's a lot more similarity there than you'd think - they are all certified to standards with very similar requirements. They don't get to pass unless they do what the test pilot is expecting them to do!
I regularly spin my Cessna 150 to keep myself fresh. I have spun many types, including Cherokees and Tomhawks, and recently, a float equipped Cessna 185 with a survey boom out the back, and a Lake Amphibian with a boom out 12' the front, and a Cessna 207 with wing pylons. These were test flights, and I was by myself. I had to learn fast! The 185 lost 1000' and went beyond straight down during the first recovery - due wholly to overly casual recovery technique on my part! The second, and subsequent spin recoveries were much better! The Lake spins beautifully, but requires a strong rudder foot to get a crisp recovery. The 207 is heavy but pleasent. I've even spun an Ercoupe, but it was really hard to get it into a spin with no rudder pedals, and of couse, I had no way of holding it in! It came out on its own, as advertised on the placard.
The 150/152/172 will find their own way out of a spin eventually, but it's a sloppy way to fly. Apply anything like what the book says to do to get out, and the recovery is quite presentable.
One comment about Cherokees, which would also apply to a Cessna 177, is that pitch control is via a stabilator, as opposed to stabilizer/elevator. At large control surface angles of attack, there is the possibility of stalling the whole flying surface. (Early C177's had an AD about this) The stabilizer/elevator combination seems more resistant to this, perhaps due to the effective increase in camber of the flying surface as a whole during high pitch angle flying. This effect is noticable during soft field takeoffs, where the stabilator seems to produce a whole lot of drag (defeating accelleration) and not the desired amount of lift (down) to keep the nose high. If you manage to get airborne this way, the lack of climb performance is alarming!
Novice vs experienced flying instructor? Fly with them both. The novice is fresh, and deserves the same chance to advance their career as you will want. And remember, they are there mostly to provide a safe environment within which you will learn for yourself. The oldtimer will be relaxed, and have lots of "been there, done that" good advice. And, they'll keep you safe too. If you don't feel safe, tell them so, and ask their opinion of your feeling. Then tell them that you are going to give yourself a bigger margin of safety and try again.
Good luck in finding the experience you are looking for. It's all out there somewhere, just find it safely!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
