Watch the speed!
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SAR Bloke wrote
That the controls were sloppy alerted Lister, a lowish hour pilot, to check the ASI proves that Lister had been well trained and correlated sloppy controls with reducing airspeed. He scanned the dials and his diagnosis of the situation was proven to be correct. It was the feel of the controls, not a rigid fixation with the ASI that alerted him to his predicament - I'd call that seat of the pants flying!
Very few light aircraft have AoA indicators fitted but they do have all come with an inbuilt device which alerts you to increasing Alpha and can be mentally calibrated to predict the onset of critical AoA - it is the object held in one hand, namely the stick or control column.
Every (non canard) aeroplane will only stall with that device in one of only two positions at any airspeed.
In my own bipe, I need to bring the stick-top back about 4" to cause the wings to exceed critical Alpha and she will stall, at 60mph, 120mph or at 150mph. The same amount of forward stick and she will break at 60, 120 or 150mph.
This is not rocket science, my muscle-memory causes the hairs on the back of my neck to stand on end when the stick approaches those two positions - even if I have decided to put it there!
The two incidents this week which I believe caused Lister to create this excellent thread did not happen on final, so
although excellent advice is not germane to the discussion about spinning on the base to final or downwind to base turn.
Stik
I disagree with the 'seat of the pants' brigade. As Lister said in his original post, it was the sloppy controls that alerted him to check the airspeed. This is where low speed/stall/spin awareness training comes in.
However, the way to stop yourself getting into trouble on finals in a light aircraft is to scan the speed. Forget AoA as most light aircraft do not have an AoA gauge fitted.
However, the way to stop yourself getting into trouble on finals in a light aircraft is to scan the speed. Forget AoA as most light aircraft do not have an AoA gauge fitted.
Very few light aircraft have AoA indicators fitted but they do have all come with an inbuilt device which alerts you to increasing Alpha and can be mentally calibrated to predict the onset of critical AoA - it is the object held in one hand, namely the stick or control column.
Every (non canard) aeroplane will only stall with that device in one of only two positions at any airspeed.
In my own bipe, I need to bring the stick-top back about 4" to cause the wings to exceed critical Alpha and she will stall, at 60mph, 120mph or at 150mph. The same amount of forward stick and she will break at 60, 120 or 150mph.
This is not rocket science, my muscle-memory causes the hairs on the back of my neck to stand on end when the stick approaches those two positions - even if I have decided to put it there!
The two incidents this week which I believe caused Lister to create this excellent thread did not happen on final, so
However, the way to stop yourself getting into trouble on finals in a light aircraft is to scan the speed.
Stik
Stik,
If you re-read the first post THIS incident says nothing about turning downwind to base or base to final.
I agree that 'seat of the pants' alerted him to the situation. However, monitoring the ASI would have prevented the problem arising in the first place. What if this had happened at 20 ft and there was not enough height to recover. Too late for seat of the pants then. You should always be ahead of the aircraft not trying to catch up with it. You say
I would say if you are reacting to what the aircraft is doing, you are not flying it, it is flying you.
IMO the control column does not give a reliable enough indication of AoA (a number of factors may change the AoA for the same stick position - such as the deployment of flaps). Also, if you fly more than one aircraft, especially if you fly it infrequently, you may not remember exactly where this stick position is. Relying on these sorts of sensations can get you into trouble. As a further example, if you have a trim runaway on an aircraft with electric trim the stick position at stall may be the same but feel would be entirely different. This may require you to scan the stick position. Why not just look at the ASI? This is a noddy emergency if you scan the instruments but if you rely on feel then you may be in trouble.
If you re-read the first post THIS incident says nothing about turning downwind to base or base to final.
I agree that 'seat of the pants' alerted him to the situation. However, monitoring the ASI would have prevented the problem arising in the first place. What if this had happened at 20 ft and there was not enough height to recover. Too late for seat of the pants then. You should always be ahead of the aircraft not trying to catch up with it. You say
I would suggest that you are not flying - you are merely operating an aerial conveyance to a set of prescribed parameters and IF anything were to unbalance that equilibrium, you would be in a whole heap of hurt
IMO the control column does not give a reliable enough indication of AoA (a number of factors may change the AoA for the same stick position - such as the deployment of flaps). Also, if you fly more than one aircraft, especially if you fly it infrequently, you may not remember exactly where this stick position is. Relying on these sorts of sensations can get you into trouble. As a further example, if you have a trim runaway on an aircraft with electric trim the stick position at stall may be the same but feel would be entirely different. This may require you to scan the stick position. Why not just look at the ASI? This is a noddy emergency if you scan the instruments but if you rely on feel then you may be in trouble.
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That the controls were sloppy alerted Lister, a lowish hour pilot, to check the ASI proves that Lister had been well trained and correlated sloppy controls with reducing airspeed.
What worries me is why Lister felt controls sloppy enough to warrant action on a PA28-180, on short final at 65kias.
Sure, the controls won't be as crisp as at 90kias, but (assuming 3 stages of flap, per the POH) the thing should be slightly above Vs1.3 and flying perfectly happily. In fact, I wouldn't wish to fly the last mile a lot faster than 65kias, especially if light.
So is there some position error or has Lister been trained to fly down short final at a higher airspeed?
Whatever, I do agree that being uncomfortable with the control feel and taking a positive decision is good airmanship for a low hour PPL - well done that man.
What worries me is why Lister felt controls sloppy enough to warrant action on a PA28-180, on short final at 65kias.
Sure, the controls won't be as crisp as at 90kias, but (assuming 3 stages of flap, per the POH) the thing should be slightly above Vs1.3 and flying perfectly happily. In fact, I wouldn't wish to fly the last mile a lot faster than 65kias, especially if light.
So is there some position error or has Lister been trained to fly down short final at a higher airspeed?
Whatever, I do agree that being uncomfortable with the control feel and taking a positive decision is good airmanship for a low hour PPL - well done that man.
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" Doesn't everyone learn it that way? "
Actually..NO.
Why would anyone look at the trees at the far end of the runway?
What have I been missing all these years?
Chuck E.
Actually..NO.
Why would anyone look at the trees at the far end of the runway?
What have I been missing all these years?
Chuck E.
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er...... Ok so what about my insect in the pitout this week. scanning the ASI was bugger all use to me! I had to resort to good old seat of the pants flying.
I am an IR Rated Pilot with just on 2000hrs so I am pretty happy with putting my faith in the instruments and flying "hotships" including ex mil jets. But I like to think I have never forgotten seat of the pants flying.
FLYING is Not just operating a mode of transport.
I am an IR Rated Pilot with just on 2000hrs so I am pretty happy with putting my faith in the instruments and flying "hotships" including ex mil jets. But I like to think I have never forgotten seat of the pants flying.
FLYING is Not just operating a mode of transport.
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Originally Posted by MichaelJP59
What I don't quite understand is that everyone's done basic handling - i.e. taking the aircraft up to a safe height and playing with speed, angles of bank, different configs, finding what it takes to stall the aircraft and so on. In my experience in the trainers I've flown I've found I have to be really and deliberately unfeeling to provoke anything like a stall - such as slowing down until the controls are *really* sloppy then pulling right back ignoring all stall warners.
So it worries me with the above dire warnings of the fatal turn to final and so on - am I missing something that could catch me out big style or is there not enough "flying by feel" taught?
So it worries me with the above dire warnings of the fatal turn to final and so on - am I missing something that could catch me out big style or is there not enough "flying by feel" taught?
Originally Posted by littco
Remember also we are talking ISA here and as such a sudden drop in wind speed reduces ISA without you even doing anything, possible windsheer or gusty wind can all contribute to this. A 10Knt drop in ISA due to drop in wind speed isn't that impossible, especially if there are buildings or trees in the local area .
A second reason, which I think is closer to what worries MichaelJP59, is how you can screw up the final turn when you handle stalls etc, fine in the upper air. Glider pilot training has worked hard on this, because we lost too many pilots from spinning in off the final turn.
The reason is that, off the final turn, the closeness of the ground changes two important factors: (1) your perspective changes - at 2,000 ft in a turn you see very little more ground as you bank, but making the final turn you see lots more ground, and it's easy for your subconscious to pull back to make the picture right; and (2) you *know* you don't want to hit that nasty ground, so you have to stop yourself easing back on the stick to make it go away.
If you're monitoring your airspeed you can catch these trends. If you're flying solely by feel you might miss them.
More experienced pilots internalise these, so that the low and slow final turn feels wrong. However, I'm sure the only safe way is to consciously monitor your airspeed on the final turn and approach.
er...... Ok so what about my insect in the pitout this week. scanning the ASI was bugger all use to me! I had to resort to good old seat of the pants flying.
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Bose-X, you beat me to it. I was about to mention POWER ATTITUDE TRIM.
You should all know the required power and attitude for the various speeds and configuraions for each of your aircraft. If you select the required power, and set the required attitude you will fly at the correct speed.
Forgive me if it's all ready been mentioned, I've only had a quick scan through this thread.
SARBloke
What about turbulence, gusty conditions, windshear etcetera? IMHO this is reacting to what the aircraft is doing, you are however, CONTROLLING the aircraft!
There are pros for "seat of the pants flying" and there are pros for instrument flying and correct scanning. However, to rely on only one is detrimental to your safety.
To become proficient in both disciplines is the advice I would try to impress on you from my 17 years flying.
Chesty
You should all know the required power and attitude for the various speeds and configuraions for each of your aircraft. If you select the required power, and set the required attitude you will fly at the correct speed.
Forgive me if it's all ready been mentioned, I've only had a quick scan through this thread.
SARBloke
I would say if you are reacting to what the aircraft is doing, you are not flying it, it is flying you.
There are pros for "seat of the pants flying" and there are pros for instrument flying and correct scanning. However, to rely on only one is detrimental to your safety.
To become proficient in both disciplines is the advice I would try to impress on you from my 17 years flying.
Chesty
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It's all very well for 1000+ hour pilots to argue about how to avoid stall/spin.
Frankly I don't think many 1000+ hour pilots are going to stall on the base/final turn, and one would need to be doing something quite "curious" to stall anywhere else.
The point here, bearing in mind what recent event got this thread started (!!), is how PPL students flying solo, and low-hour PPLs who have just dropped off the end of the PPL sausage machine, can avoid it happening.
My view is that careful airspeed maintenance is the only way at that stage of the game, and that means paying attention to correct trimming at each phase of the flight.
It may well be true that every plane will stall with the yoke in exactly two positions (I can see where that comes from physically but I am not entirely sure it is true in all flight regimes especially if turbulence / windshear is present) but this subtle point of aerodynamics will be completely lost on new pilots.
You may as well try to make the point that - for all flying machines - the best range speed is equal to the best glide speed which is equal to the best rate of climb speed (Vy), ignoring engine efficiency issues of course.
Frankly I don't think many 1000+ hour pilots are going to stall on the base/final turn, and one would need to be doing something quite "curious" to stall anywhere else.
The point here, bearing in mind what recent event got this thread started (!!), is how PPL students flying solo, and low-hour PPLs who have just dropped off the end of the PPL sausage machine, can avoid it happening.
My view is that careful airspeed maintenance is the only way at that stage of the game, and that means paying attention to correct trimming at each phase of the flight.
It may well be true that every plane will stall with the yoke in exactly two positions (I can see where that comes from physically but I am not entirely sure it is true in all flight regimes especially if turbulence / windshear is present) but this subtle point of aerodynamics will be completely lost on new pilots.
You may as well try to make the point that - for all flying machines - the best range speed is equal to the best glide speed which is equal to the best rate of climb speed (Vy), ignoring engine efficiency issues of course.
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As stated by others, the approach speed in a PA28 with full flap is 65 (66 in the Archer II). So what speeds were you using for the approach.
Far more problems are caused by the "Add 5 kts for the wife and kid's" brigade than by being a bit slow. What are the statistics for over-runs, nose wheel wipeouts etc. compared to stall/spin accidents on approach? I'm betting they are very different.
I teach people to fly the given numbers initially until they gain a feel for the machine. BUT.....
Anyone who thinks that flying isn't about feel is fooling themselves, or they are wearing mittens. I personally don't look at the ASI on the approach very often. I know what it feels like, how it should sound and how the a/c should respond. I will often cover the ASI completely on final with students and when I reveal it at points, they are always amazed at how close they can get to the given speeds without reference to an instrument.
This "feel" has saved my bacon on a couple of occasions, firstly when a load sheet was compiled incorrectly and I thought it felt a bit heavy, so I increased our Vref speeds. On subsequent investigation we were found to be nearly 700kgs heavier than we thought, due to the handling agent's making a mistake. Now, this may not have resulted in our demise, but it shows that the innate ability to know when something is wrong is essential. Without it, we may have never known there was a problem.
Whilst a PA28 has a speed given for final approach, in reality the only time speed is really important is when you are touching down, can anyone really tell me they are looking at the ASI in the flare? Or are you relying on your hands, eyes and experience to judge what's going on?
I have often approached at far in excess of 65/66 kts, especially if I have had someone puking in the back (Don't ask....) and then pulled the throttle closed when at the last possible moment so that I take the least possible time to get on the ground possible. (I don't recommend it. It tends to stuff engines, but sometimes circumstances dictate your actions!) So final approach speed isn't as critical as some make out.
It is true that a stable and controlled approach is more likely to lead to a successful landing, but we mustn't be over-reliant on anything. I try and get students to "tick tock" on approach, between aiming point, windsock and speed. If it's gusty, then you add 50% of the gust factor and be ready for a go around at anytime. Other than that, it's down to what's going on between your backside, hands, eyes, ears and brain. Listen to what they are ALL telling you and you won't go far wrong!
Getting the thing trimmed properly as stated by IO is also absolutely essential, an a/c should be in trim at all times, otherwise you are just creating work for yourself.
Far more problems are caused by the "Add 5 kts for the wife and kid's" brigade than by being a bit slow. What are the statistics for over-runs, nose wheel wipeouts etc. compared to stall/spin accidents on approach? I'm betting they are very different.
I teach people to fly the given numbers initially until they gain a feel for the machine. BUT.....
Anyone who thinks that flying isn't about feel is fooling themselves, or they are wearing mittens. I personally don't look at the ASI on the approach very often. I know what it feels like, how it should sound and how the a/c should respond. I will often cover the ASI completely on final with students and when I reveal it at points, they are always amazed at how close they can get to the given speeds without reference to an instrument.
This "feel" has saved my bacon on a couple of occasions, firstly when a load sheet was compiled incorrectly and I thought it felt a bit heavy, so I increased our Vref speeds. On subsequent investigation we were found to be nearly 700kgs heavier than we thought, due to the handling agent's making a mistake. Now, this may not have resulted in our demise, but it shows that the innate ability to know when something is wrong is essential. Without it, we may have never known there was a problem.
Whilst a PA28 has a speed given for final approach, in reality the only time speed is really important is when you are touching down, can anyone really tell me they are looking at the ASI in the flare? Or are you relying on your hands, eyes and experience to judge what's going on?
I have often approached at far in excess of 65/66 kts, especially if I have had someone puking in the back (Don't ask....) and then pulled the throttle closed when at the last possible moment so that I take the least possible time to get on the ground possible. (I don't recommend it. It tends to stuff engines, but sometimes circumstances dictate your actions!) So final approach speed isn't as critical as some make out.
It is true that a stable and controlled approach is more likely to lead to a successful landing, but we mustn't be over-reliant on anything. I try and get students to "tick tock" on approach, between aiming point, windsock and speed. If it's gusty, then you add 50% of the gust factor and be ready for a go around at anytime. Other than that, it's down to what's going on between your backside, hands, eyes, ears and brain. Listen to what they are ALL telling you and you won't go far wrong!
Getting the thing trimmed properly as stated by IO is also absolutely essential, an a/c should be in trim at all times, otherwise you are just creating work for yourself.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 21st Jul 2006 at 22:15.
Gender Faculty Specialist
IO540, Your post comes across as a little bit naive. I hope that isn't really the case.
You ask how low houred PPL pilots can avoid spinning/stalling.
The same way every pilot learns it. Listen to your instructor, listen to the 1000+ hour pilots who aren't arguing but trying to pass on their valuable experience. That is, after all, how we learnt to fly isn't it?
.........Exactly!
We don't post on here just for the hell of it. There is a lot of experience on this forum and people would be well advised to heed it.
"The trick is to fill the empty bag of experience before the full bag of luck is emptied"
Listen. Remember. Practice. Discipline..............Pass it on!
You ask how low houred PPL pilots can avoid spinning/stalling.
The same way every pilot learns it. Listen to your instructor, listen to the 1000+ hour pilots who aren't arguing but trying to pass on their valuable experience. That is, after all, how we learnt to fly isn't it?
Frankly I don't think many 1000+ hour pilots are going to stall on the base/final turn
We don't post on here just for the hell of it. There is a lot of experience on this forum and people would be well advised to heed it.
"The trick is to fill the empty bag of experience before the full bag of luck is emptied"
Listen. Remember. Practice. Discipline..............Pass it on!
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SAS
So final approach speed isn't as critical as some make out.
I see where you'e coming from, but its probably more critical for low houred pilots.
I'm not averse to coming down short final at 90kias if I needed to (e.g. faster traffic behind), probably slipping to increase the sink rate and then slowing up quickly, dirtying up or even landing flapless. If I wasn't happy at ay stage, I'd go around without hesitation.
But I wouldn't have liked to have tried this when low houred, as the judgment required and workload were beyond my ability.
And if carrying pax (unless I knew that they didn't mind some excitement), I'd still wish to float down the last mile at 65 (+ half the gust) with as little drama as poss (haven't had a puker yet
)
And I do agree that feel is very important, which is why I am concerned that Lister Noble felt the controls were too sloppy - someone should be having a look at that to close the loop and understand why.
So final approach speed isn't as critical as some make out.
I see where you'e coming from, but its probably more critical for low houred pilots.
I'm not averse to coming down short final at 90kias if I needed to (e.g. faster traffic behind), probably slipping to increase the sink rate and then slowing up quickly, dirtying up or even landing flapless. If I wasn't happy at ay stage, I'd go around without hesitation.
But I wouldn't have liked to have tried this when low houred, as the judgment required and workload were beyond my ability.
And if carrying pax (unless I knew that they didn't mind some excitement), I'd still wish to float down the last mile at 65 (+ half the gust) with as little drama as poss (haven't had a puker yet
)And I do agree that feel is very important, which is why I am concerned that Lister Noble felt the controls were too sloppy - someone should be having a look at that to close the loop and understand why.
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Originally Posted by ProfChrisReed
and
Littco give one reason why you could get caught out near the ground. I've seen 20kt plus wiped off my airspeed flying a glider. The fact that everything felt fine 3 seconds ago is not good enough - you have to fly with sufficient margin of airspeed to cope with this if it happens. .
Littco give one reason why you could get caught out near the ground. I've seen 20kt plus wiped off my airspeed flying a glider. The fact that everything felt fine 3 seconds ago is not good enough - you have to fly with sufficient margin of airspeed to cope with this if it happens. .
Sorry but I've missed you point!
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SAR Bloke
#1 - Stick position v critical Alpha; I admit that I had omitted flaps from my ever so basic Pitts-centric view of the world but still maintain that the same Stick/yoke lessons could be learned with flap deployed in various configs.
#2 - run away trim. I have had the misfortune to experience this at FL220 in a Be200. Maybe it was because the nose kept rising, the attitude looked different, the airspeed began to bleed - but whatever alerted me to it, I don't think it was ASI scan in the cruise that alerted me to it. The lecky trim disengage was a thumb-nudge. Manualy dialling in correct trim was no big deal, nor was overpowering it with one hand at Vcruise.
I hear what you say perhaps we are confusing the term "seat of the pants"?
Stik
IMO the control column does not give a reliable enough indication of AoA (a number of factors may change the AoA for the same stick position - such as the deployment of flaps). Also, if you fly more than one aircraft, especially if you fly it infrequently, you may not remember exactly where this stick position is. Relying on these sorts of sensations can get you into trouble. As a further example, if you have a trim runaway on an aircraft with electric trim the stick position at stall may be the same but feel would be entirely different. This may require you to scan the stick position. Why not just look at the ASI? This is a noddy emergency if you scan the instruments but if you rely on feel then you may be in trouble.
#2 - run away trim. I have had the misfortune to experience this at FL220 in a Be200. Maybe it was because the nose kept rising, the attitude looked different, the airspeed began to bleed - but whatever alerted me to it, I don't think it was ASI scan in the cruise that alerted me to it. The lecky trim disengage was a thumb-nudge. Manualy dialling in correct trim was no big deal, nor was overpowering it with one hand at Vcruise.
I hear what you say perhaps we are confusing the term "seat of the pants"?
Stik
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Originally Posted by littco
Sorry but I fail to see your point? what exactly are you trying to tell me? I was simply stating that we are talking about Indicated air speed and such while people are talking about flying at 65-70knts for a base/final it is more than important that just because you're flying at that one second doesn't mean that the ISA can't change through no fault of your own. You've asked me you to give one good reason you could get caught out near the ground yet in your next sentence "crop along the upwind side of the runway can cause a sudden drop in wind speed" which to me is one good reason! . Yes you do have to fly with sufficient speed to compensate for this but as people have said earlier they have been in a situation where their ISA got worrying low. My point was it's not always something you have control over but be prepared!
Sorry but I've missed you point!
Sorry but I've missed you point!
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Genghis,my sincere apologies,I meant 65mph and controls were sloppy!
115 mph downwind,turn onto base,carb heat ,reduce power,two stages flap,80 mph on final,third stage flap,I prefer a little less speed on final ,around 75-80 mph,control speed with elevator and height with throttle,in fact it is a combination of both.
We are are taught correct trim right from first lesson,setting it up for flaps on base and on final glide path.
The aircraft should always be trimmed to fly itself,except in transitory movements,ie steep turns etc.
I had better go back and edit my first post!
Lister
115 mph downwind,turn onto base,carb heat ,reduce power,two stages flap,80 mph on final,third stage flap,I prefer a little less speed on final ,around 75-80 mph,control speed with elevator and height with throttle,in fact it is a combination of both.
We are are taught correct trim right from first lesson,setting it up for flaps on base and on final glide path.
The aircraft should always be trimmed to fly itself,except in transitory movements,ie steep turns etc.
I had better go back and edit my first post!
Lister
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Lister
Thanks for clarifying that you meant mph.
It is quite understandable that the controls felt unacceptably sloppy at that indicated airspeed, well done for spotting it and taking appropriate action.
Did the stall warner light illuminate? That is if you noticed the thing :-) I always found it ineffective compared to an aural warner, especially in bright sunshine.
Thanks for clarifying that you meant mph.
It is quite understandable that the controls felt unacceptably sloppy at that indicated airspeed, well done for spotting it and taking appropriate action.
Did the stall warner light illuminate? That is if you noticed the thing :-) I always found it ineffective compared to an aural warner, especially in bright sunshine.
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Lister I think you summed up well what you should be doing to avoid this situation again.
Try thinking about elevator in a different way, it controls your attitude, which in turn controls your speed, at least in a lighty. Power controls your rate of descent or climb.
Some one touched on attitude flying. I think this is the least well taught aspect in inital training, I had it hammered home during my commercial training. Lister go flying, possibly with an instructor who can teach attitude flying well and look closely at attitudes on base with two stages of flap, final with full flap.
If you fly the attitude that gives you the required speed very accurately and trim out all forces accurately I think you will discover the speed looks after itself , power then takes care of the rate of descent and if an accurate approach is flown you will need little in the way of power changes, leading to very little trim change.
It takes practice to fly attitudes accurately but well worth the effort in the long run.
Hope this helps FF
Try thinking about elevator in a different way, it controls your attitude, which in turn controls your speed, at least in a lighty. Power controls your rate of descent or climb.
Some one touched on attitude flying. I think this is the least well taught aspect in inital training, I had it hammered home during my commercial training. Lister go flying, possibly with an instructor who can teach attitude flying well and look closely at attitudes on base with two stages of flap, final with full flap.
If you fly the attitude that gives you the required speed very accurately and trim out all forces accurately I think you will discover the speed looks after itself , power then takes care of the rate of descent and if an accurate approach is flown you will need little in the way of power changes, leading to very little trim change.
It takes practice to fly attitudes accurately but well worth the effort in the long run.
Hope this helps FF