6 months to plan a long trip?
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oops sorry I did not mention any aircraft in my post. I have been there many times with the military and many times running diving expeditions.
I was making the point that I did not think Spitzbergen was that hostile, I have many fond memories of the place. I was making the point that 6 months to plan a trip may have been excessive that was all.
Royal Marines? We had to have someone make the tea.........
I was making the point that I did not think Spitzbergen was that hostile, I have many fond memories of the place. I was making the point that 6 months to plan a trip may have been excessive that was all.
Royal Marines? We had to have someone make the tea.........
Last edited by S-Works; 6th Jun 2006 at 17:33.
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Thanks bose-x, very relieved to hear there's a few people who don't blunder about trying to predict the weather 3 months in advance 
Incidentally I read another article in Flyer about GA risk by our own John Farley - the realisation that flight test is safer then GA is fairly startling, and very true once you think about it
But that doesn't preclude long trips as long as you truely know what you're doing and have a backup plan for most situations.
Incidentally I read another article in Flyer about GA risk by our own John Farley - the realisation that flight test is safer then GA is fairly startling, and very true once you think about it
But that doesn't preclude long trips as long as you truely know what you're doing and have a backup plan for most situations.
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As the author of the article in Flyer, my attention has been drawn to this thread. It reminds me of why I don't bother with PPRuNe these days. 
If anyone is really that interested in seeing what we had to consider in the planning process, I would be happy to send them the minutes of our meetings, where we divided up the work and responsibilities.
Much of the planning was not to do with the actual flying per se, but with picking the appropriate time of year, selecting activities once we got up there and so on.
But a good deal of it was to do with ordinary flight planning, and Keef makes the most relevant point about the fuel.
But there were other issues like identifying, sourcing, having shipped and testing engine pre-heaters, having EASA certified long-range tanks fitted, the ditching courses etc.
And the weapons training was entirely due to flying. We needed weapons and a knowledge how to use them primarily in case of forced landing...the rifles were of the same status as dinghies.
Even getting appropriate charts was not as easy as it sounds, much of Svalbard is not properly mapped and the best charts we could find only said "Terrain not thought to exceed 6,500' ".
Of course you can blast off without planning to places like Spain and Greece...I do so all the time...because you are pretty confident that fuel, hotels etc will be there when you get there. Svalbard is a remote wilderness. It would be daft to pretend that it is Palma and just go.
It would not take as long to plan another flight to Svalbard now we have the experience, of course, and if anyone is thinking of doing it and wishes to use the benefit of the thorough planning we did, please get in touch and I will help as much as I can.
This having been the first thread I have read on PPRuNe for some months or years, I am not encouraged to haunt these pages on a regular basis, but if something specific comes up which requires my input, please eMail me and I will come back.
If anyone is really that interested in seeing what we had to consider in the planning process, I would be happy to send them the minutes of our meetings, where we divided up the work and responsibilities.
Much of the planning was not to do with the actual flying per se, but with picking the appropriate time of year, selecting activities once we got up there and so on.
But a good deal of it was to do with ordinary flight planning, and Keef makes the most relevant point about the fuel.
But there were other issues like identifying, sourcing, having shipped and testing engine pre-heaters, having EASA certified long-range tanks fitted, the ditching courses etc.
And the weapons training was entirely due to flying. We needed weapons and a knowledge how to use them primarily in case of forced landing...the rifles were of the same status as dinghies.
Even getting appropriate charts was not as easy as it sounds, much of Svalbard is not properly mapped and the best charts we could find only said "Terrain not thought to exceed 6,500' ".
Of course you can blast off without planning to places like Spain and Greece...I do so all the time...because you are pretty confident that fuel, hotels etc will be there when you get there. Svalbard is a remote wilderness. It would be daft to pretend that it is Palma and just go.
It would not take as long to plan another flight to Svalbard now we have the experience, of course, and if anyone is thinking of doing it and wishes to use the benefit of the thorough planning we did, please get in touch and I will help as much as I can.
This having been the first thread I have read on PPRuNe for some months or years, I am not encouraged to haunt these pages on a regular basis, but if something specific comes up which requires my input, please eMail me and I will come back.
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Timothy,
Welcome back!
Even if not for long. 
Some of us understood perfectly well what you were saying. The ones who didn't, well, some haven't even started flying yet, I think. They asked; they got an answer....several, actually. Nothing wrong with that, is there? IMHO some of the others who should have known better were talking crap, but that's PPRuNe for you - if we all agreed, threads would die very quickly.
But it would be really, really nice to have more people with your experience on here. Just occasionally, mind you; you don't have to read it every day. There's some good stuff here now and then. Why not drop in once in a while, and speed-read PPRuNe, selectively, that won't take long.
Meanwhile, I'll remember that you're willing to come back if emailed for a good reason.
Welcome back!
Even if not for long. Some of us understood perfectly well what you were saying. The ones who didn't, well, some haven't even started flying yet, I think. They asked; they got an answer....several, actually. Nothing wrong with that, is there? IMHO some of the others who should have known better were talking crap, but that's PPRuNe for you - if we all agreed, threads would die very quickly.
But it would be really, really nice to have more people with your experience on here. Just occasionally, mind you; you don't have to read it every day. There's some good stuff here now and then. Why not drop in once in a while, and speed-read PPRuNe, selectively, that won't take long.
Meanwhile, I'll remember that you're willing to come back if emailed for a good reason.
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Originally Posted by drauk
Timothy, I find your attitude amusing.
Originally Posted by Confabulous
Granted, the flight was for two aircraft going from the UK to Spitzbergen/Svalbard and back...
Maybe he/she should have spent longer reading it
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I think that everyone is confusing "Planning" with "Preparation".
Everyone should be able to plan a flight to the limit of the endurance of the aircraft within 45 minutes to 1 hour from scratch. That includes getting the weather and notams and having the plog prepared and being ready to walk to the aircraft. IFR or VFR, makes no difference. If you can't then get some practice. It is amazing how you can get a nice system in place which will allow you to spend more time flying or at the destination than lounging round the planning room.
However, making preparations for a flight to an unusual destination can take longer and dela with the more basic aspects of operating the aircraft rather than the flight itself.
----------
QUOTE=Timothy]This having been the first thread I have read on PPRuNe for some months or years, I am not encouraged to haunt these pages on a regular basis, but if something specific comes up which requires my input, please eMail me and I will come back[/QUOTE]
Email you to come back? You will be asking a fee for your input next
Regards,
DFC
Everyone should be able to plan a flight to the limit of the endurance of the aircraft within 45 minutes to 1 hour from scratch. That includes getting the weather and notams and having the plog prepared and being ready to walk to the aircraft. IFR or VFR, makes no difference. If you can't then get some practice. It is amazing how you can get a nice system in place which will allow you to spend more time flying or at the destination than lounging round the planning room.
However, making preparations for a flight to an unusual destination can take longer and dela with the more basic aspects of operating the aircraft rather than the flight itself.
----------
QUOTE=Timothy]This having been the first thread I have read on PPRuNe for some months or years, I am not encouraged to haunt these pages on a regular basis, but if something specific comes up which requires my input, please eMail me and I will come back[/QUOTE]
Email you to come back? You will be asking a fee for your input next
Regards,
DFC
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If the Flyer article contained some useful details on the planning process, the (perfectly reasonable) question which started this thread would not have been asked.
But if the article contained enough information to enable someone to follow in the author's footsteps (gosh what a revolutionary idea that would be for a trip writeup!!!!! I should apply for a patent on that) the magazine would not have published it. As I well know, having written up a few trips in some detail. Some foreign pilot mags will publish articles like that but none of the UK ones will.
Printed magazines have to tread a narrow line between brief articles with pretty pictures, and a readership which probably contains a lot of non-pilots. They can never compete with detailed web writeups, quite a number of which can be unearthed using google in a matter of seconds and for free, but of course web writeups don't pay any money...
The other thing is that a detailed writeup (whether it goes on the web or anywhere else) takes a lot of time to do. You have to (for example) save copies of routes, weather charts from the day, etc as without that there will be essential parts missing. Private pilots are not taught most of the process (true even if they have an IR of either type) and there is a lot of info to pass on.
But if the article contained enough information to enable someone to follow in the author's footsteps (gosh what a revolutionary idea that would be for a trip writeup!!!!! I should apply for a patent on that) the magazine would not have published it. As I well know, having written up a few trips in some detail. Some foreign pilot mags will publish articles like that but none of the UK ones will.
Printed magazines have to tread a narrow line between brief articles with pretty pictures, and a readership which probably contains a lot of non-pilots. They can never compete with detailed web writeups, quite a number of which can be unearthed using google in a matter of seconds and for free, but of course web writeups don't pay any money...
The other thing is that a detailed writeup (whether it goes on the web or anywhere else) takes a lot of time to do. You have to (for example) save copies of routes, weather charts from the day, etc as without that there will be essential parts missing. Private pilots are not taught most of the process (true even if they have an IR of either type) and there is a lot of info to pass on.
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Originally Posted by IO540
If the Flyer article contained some useful details on the planning process, the (perfectly reasonable) question which started this thread would not have been asked.
I've never expected a "story" to give me all the facts and figures.
The article is there to pique my interest, maybe to make me think of doing it or something similar.
It isn't (and never could be) a plan which I could cut'n'paste and use as my own.
As for the original question, if the basic facts are wrong
I don't think it falls into the "reasonable question" bucket.
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DFC :-
And DFC will now tell us all, children, how we may obtain up to date charts of whatever part of Europe we may be aiming for within 45 minutes ....
Sorry, DFC. Couldn't resist it : but those who use absolutes should first of all be absolutely sure they're not talking b*@$$*^s .... !
FF
Everyone should be able to plan a flight to the limit of the endurance of the aircraft within 45 minutes to 1 hour from scratch.
Sorry, DFC. Couldn't resist it : but those who use absolutes should first of all be absolutely sure they're not talking b*@$$*^s .... !
FF
The Original Whirly
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But if the article contained enough information to enable someone to follow in the author's footsteps (gosh what a revolutionary idea that would be for a trip writeup!!!!! I should apply for a patent on that) the magazine would not have published it.
Of course flying mags have to cater for a wide audience. How else are they going to survive? You don't have to read them if you don't like that. And if you write for them, you ought to read them first to get some idea of the style and type of article they publish. That's what the rest of us do who write for the mags you know. I don't write my helicopter articles for a CPL level audience - I could, but they'd get rejected, and quite rightly too.
I think the original question was perfectly reasonable. Some of the answers haven't been though.
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IO540's telling the truth about the articles, it frustrates me to read a good trip article and not have the background knowledge given, or at least be pointed in the right direction. One particular blog stands out that does give a huge amount of information about planning trips is 2Donkey's UK-US-UK trip, it gives a lot insight into the whole process (I only found it a few days ago, after I had started this thread). If there are others, I'd love to know!
For me, an aircraft is multipurpose no matter what it was designed for - I'm equally happy on a long trip or trying to perfect steep turns, flaring or whatever else I have thrown at me. The more I know about everything the better off I am, from ASRS reports to AAIB investigations and other people's techniques and ideas I would have never thought about. Aviation is one world where ignorance is regularly deadly or nearly so.
One example (not related to the topic, but worth thinking about) is a recent air test that was done at my local club on a Warrior II. The actual air test went well except the aircraft wouldn't reach Vne. They came back down and assumed they just hadn't opened the throttle enough during the dive. The next day my friend (it wasn't me, I'm still a student, he's an ATPL/FI), intriuged by this problem, took to the skies in the same aircraft, opened the power and pointed the nose earthwards. It went straight through Vne, and in a few seconds he was officially a test pilot. He finally got control of the speed around Vne +20kts, heart thumping wildly as he waited for flutter onset, VSI off the low scale and the cows getting bigger. He told me later that bleeding off those 20kts felt as if it took 20 minutes, especially when aircraft age and poor repair could easily erase the flutter margin to nothing. He landed slightly shaken and very stirred.
I wondered what he'd done to check the aircraft over after. Nothing, as it turns out. He didn't even bring it to the local engineer to check over, nor did he file a CHIRP report.
What I learned is:
If you're going to do something unusual or that you've never done before, go up with someone else who has.
Plan for what to do if things go wrong
Know you aircrafts' limits, not just in terms of G, bank angle and stall speed, but know how quickly it accelerates, decelerates, increasing or decreasing (unlikely) stick force as you pull... actually know as much as you possibly can about your aircraft, from any reputable source!
Advanced training or learning DOES NOT make you invulnerable to stupidity.
True, I forgot, but not really relevant.
For me, an aircraft is multipurpose no matter what it was designed for - I'm equally happy on a long trip or trying to perfect steep turns, flaring or whatever else I have thrown at me. The more I know about everything the better off I am, from ASRS reports to AAIB investigations and other people's techniques and ideas I would have never thought about. Aviation is one world where ignorance is regularly deadly or nearly so.
One example (not related to the topic, but worth thinking about) is a recent air test that was done at my local club on a Warrior II. The actual air test went well except the aircraft wouldn't reach Vne. They came back down and assumed they just hadn't opened the throttle enough during the dive. The next day my friend (it wasn't me, I'm still a student, he's an ATPL/FI), intriuged by this problem, took to the skies in the same aircraft, opened the power and pointed the nose earthwards. It went straight through Vne, and in a few seconds he was officially a test pilot. He finally got control of the speed around Vne +20kts, heart thumping wildly as he waited for flutter onset, VSI off the low scale and the cows getting bigger. He told me later that bleeding off those 20kts felt as if it took 20 minutes, especially when aircraft age and poor repair could easily erase the flutter margin to nothing. He landed slightly shaken and very stirred.
I wondered what he'd done to check the aircraft over after. Nothing, as it turns out. He didn't even bring it to the local engineer to check over, nor did he file a CHIRP report.
What I learned is:
If you're going to do something unusual or that you've never done before, go up with someone else who has.
Plan for what to do if things go wrong
Know you aircrafts' limits, not just in terms of G, bank angle and stall speed, but know how quickly it accelerates, decelerates, increasing or decreasing (unlikely) stick force as you pull... actually know as much as you possibly can about your aircraft, from any reputable source!
Advanced training or learning DOES NOT make you invulnerable to stupidity.
oh yes, I forgot, the original person who asked the question couldn't even remember how many aircraft made the trip
Last edited by Confabulous; 6th Jun 2006 at 21:07.
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rustle
Not at all, incident or accident (I will never know) I found it a time-saving blessing. Anyway, considerably better genetic diversity here
I thought you were referring to some trip writeups being turned down. I did have some experience of this but those in question were never written for a magazine. It was the explanation that was given "we are inundated with material so can afford to be choosy" or something equivalent that speaks volumes for the stuff that does make it to publication. I get a distinct feeling (and direct feedback) that people who actually fly would prefer to read stuff that teaches them something. PPL training falls miles short of teaching people how to go places, and so many trip writeups (none meant in particular, please note) could have been compiled in an hour with pictures from "google images" with some diatribe in between.
Not at all, incident or accident (I will never know) I found it a time-saving blessing. Anyway, considerably better genetic diversity here I thought you were referring to some trip writeups being turned down. I did have some experience of this but those in question were never written for a magazine. It was the explanation that was given "we are inundated with material so can afford to be choosy" or something equivalent that speaks volumes for the stuff that does make it to publication. I get a distinct feeling (and direct feedback) that people who actually fly would prefer to read stuff that teaches them something. PPL training falls miles short of teaching people how to go places, and so many trip writeups (none meant in particular, please note) could have been compiled in an hour with pictures from "google images" with some diatribe in between.
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I'm agree with IO540 and Confabulous. I want to know what was involved. Not saying there isn't a place for travel writing, but practical information is surely more relevant to a flying mag! The seemingly forced pilot-persona style humour in one or two articles is particuarly irritating.
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Personnaly I found the article one of the better ones that Flyer has done for a while - though I'd like to have seen a bit more "technical" depth to it. I am not interested in Joe Bloggs and his first airline job which all the UK mags seem to focus on (because we all want to be airline pilots right?) and did consider letting my subscription lapse and just keep on with the US AOPA mag which is far more interesting. However, I'll give them the benefit of another year......
Exactly, I have read some of IO's writeups and this is the sort of material I find interesting. Besides it is a way of sharing info that the more experienced pilots out there may have gained, with the less experienced (which is also why I read books like "Fate is the Hunter" etc....).
As far as the question goes.....I duuno, if I were planning a first North Atlantic crossing for next spring, I'd be planning now......because it is fun, and you can never be too prepared.
I get a distinct feeling (and direct feedback) that people who actually fly would prefer to read stuff that teaches them something.
As far as the question goes.....I duuno, if I were planning a first North Atlantic crossing for next spring, I'd be planning now......because it is fun, and you can never be too prepared.
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Originally Posted by englishal
Personnaly I found the article one of the better ones that Flyer has done for a while - though I'd like to have seen a bit more "technical" depth to it. ................it is a way of sharing info that the more experienced pilots out there may have gained, with the less experienced (which is also why I read books like "Fate is the Hunter" etc....).
reading "Fate is the Hunter" while on the trip!
Of course, I had bought it six months previously but had not found the time to open it
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I actually started reading "Fate is the Hunter" while on the trip!
For what it's worth, FITH should be a part of the PPL syllabus.
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Originally Posted by FullyFlapped
DFC :-
And DFC will now tell us all, children, how we may obtain up to date charts of whatever part of Europe we may be aiming for within 45 minutes ....
And DFC will now tell us all, children, how we may obtain up to date charts of whatever part of Europe we may be aiming for within 45 minutes ....
Takes me all of 3 seconds to walk over to the chart cupoard. There are lots of online versions available if you spend the money.
However, let me say it again in simple terms.
The purchase of the chart is preparation
Preparation
Planing is where you open the chart, get weather notams etc!
Regards,
DFC