Crosswind joins (uncontrolled)

[DFC]

There is absolutely no reason why the "faster and more complicated types" can not slow down and get themselves to a reasonable speed for the circuit while joining overhead. No GA aircraft regardless of perceived complexity or possible flat out speed can not be flown at 120Kt or less over the upwind threshold.

What is the radius of turn at 120Kt and 30 deg AOB?

Regards,

DFC

[NorthSouth]

Originally Posted by tmmorris

the FISO doesn't have to look out of the window

Perhaps, but CAP 410 says "The FISO has the following specific responsibilities:
a) issuing information to aircraft flying in the aerodrome traffic zone to assist the pilots in preventing collisions...the immediate passing of accurate information could be a vital safety factor when the FISO becomes aware of a dangerous situation developing within his area of responsibility." If a FISO doesn't look out of the window in support of that task I'd say they're not very good at their job. No criticism meant of your scenario since I guess neither of us know whether your FISO did look out of the window.

Originally Posted by tmmorris

the crosswind joiner was nowhere near where he should have been

Ah I get the picture now - so this is a general point about bad positioning not just for people joining directly on crosswind but also on standard overhead joins. And it's a point well made. I find students take quite some time to grasp the principals of SOJs. Most frequent mistakes are 1) not knowing which way to turn in the overhead, 2) slowing down too much and not lowering the nose enough in the deadside descent, 3) using far too little bank, resulting in joining upwind of the runway and 4) not raising the nose enough to stop the descent at circuit height (also dangerous if there's someone going around).

[H Ferguson]

hi

could someone clarify the standard overhead join.
i know the caa version but i was taught what the instructor called the ICAO standard overhead join, which is to pass overhead the middle of the runway at 1500 aal decend on the deadside making a left hand turn. pass overhead the mid point at circuit height and then turn onto the downwind leg. i am told by my instructor that passing over the mid point is the safest place, a kind of safety zone.

[Andy_RR]

Originally Posted by unfazed

OK - So what is the difference ? apart from a descending 360 degree turn to get to the same position ?

I think the point is that the crosswind leg and crosswind over the upwind numbers are actually different places in the circuit.

BTW, how do you do an overhead join when approaching the airfield from the deadside of the circuit? The CAA piccie doesn't seem to demonstrate this eventuality. I'm presuming you need to do a 180° turn as you overfly to return to the deadside before descending?

A

[tmmorris]

As I think was explained before...

(assuming a LH circuit)

Approach the field at 2000ft AGL keeping the field on your left. Fly turning left around the airfield boundary until you are over the numbers for the runway in use. Then descend deadside. (For RH circuit substitute right for left!)

This always works, and keeps you within the UK ANO rule that all turns inside the ATZ must be in the circuit direction.

Tim

[nzmarty]

coming from a place that has only 13 or 14 controlled, and probably over 100 uncontrolled airfields, an accurate o/h rejoin is reasonably common, and something that you need to be sure you can do well. in general most GA and RPT traffic handles it pretty well (like in taupo), microlights and other nordo traffic can be a hassle, but a few things that i've picked up:

if there's other traffic in the circuit, and the runway in use is known, then a direct descent on the non-traffic (deadside) to join downwind over the numbers, instead of doing a full o/h rejoin, is quite common. a straight in approach is frowned upon, but not illegal. a mid-runway downwind joining is not really the done thing unless it's really quiet (ie no-one else on the radio in circuit).

andyrr - if you're joining the o/h from the deadside, it's no different, circle overhead until you're happy with the layout, wind direction, circuit traffic, then and only then, descend. you're only losing or gaining 1/2 a turn if you join from there.

[nzmarty]

question tmmoris: if rwy 36 is rh, and 18 is lh, and you don't know which runway is in use, what direction do you circle in the overhead?

[tonyhalsall]

With the advent of very fast, high performance microlights and LSA types I think it is time to amend the Standard Overhead Join to reflect modern day performances.
Anyone who has seen a Quik or a Pegasus CT climb skyward would realise that crossing the upwind numbers is not as safe as it once was when performance was measured by PA28 types and light Cessna's.
As the LSA category gets wider and wider acceptance there will be more and more very high performance aircraft getting up beyond circuit height at or about the upwind numbers.
It's time to re-think the procedure and I for one prefer to aim half or at least one third down the runway for my crossing point as our local circuit height is 500' and the Quiks are at that height in seconds.
It is true that a large number of Pilots make the mistake of joining crosswind somewhere along the extended centre line and even if they have joined overhead it is still poor airmanship in this phase and potentially very dangerous.

[englishal]

BTW, how do you do an overhead join when approaching the airfield from the deadside of the circuit?

I wouldn't. I'd join from the deadside - same as OHJ without the flying over, turning, flying back and descending part.......There is NO reason to join overhead if you know the layout, runway in use, wind, etc.....you just lengthen the time of possible conflicts with other aeroplanes, and irritate the neighbours due to longer time in the air.