Coventry - is this usual for GA traffic?
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Coventry - is this usual for GA traffic?
Last week I had a meeting in Coventry, and since it was a nice day elected to fly rather than drive.
Turned up, visual right base join, was asked to park on the grass next to Air Atlantique's fascinating collection of vintage aircraft (although gratified to note that my own taildragging steed was older and rarer than most of them). No problems so far.
Now what? No indication of where to go. Lacking guidance of any description walked to the tower. Waited 5 minutes for somebody to talk to me, eventually told "not here, somewhere the other side of your aeroplane". About ten minutes later, after several confused directions from passing airport staff who didn't seem to know either, eventually found my way to a place called "Anson House". Where, I must say everybody was very friendly and helpful - even got a free cup of Earl Grey tea, and a taxi ordered for me. However the £30 for landing + parking (from about 1100-1600!) was rather steep for a light single.
Went off to my meeting, got "stuff" done, returned to airport.
Sign out was easy enough - just phone the tower on a dedicated phone and pass my details. Five minute walk to my aircraft, start up, taxi to A1 hold, run-up, call ready for departure.
... and wait whilst they clear a couple of landing light aircraft
... and wait for several minutes whilst an A109 is hover-taxied across the runway for fuel.
This was about five minutes, fair enough.
... then wait (approx.) ten minutes whilst they decided to send various emergency services out on the runway to remove some "boards" (not entirely sure what).
... then remind tower I'm still waiting, told to wait for a 737 on the ILS.
... wait several minutes longer (plenty of time to get out), watch 737 land, told to line up and wait. This is 19 minutes after I originally called ready for departure.
... Now sit and watch 737 turning, backtracking half of the runway and turning off because it seemed to have landed long (I'm sure when I've been a pax in a full 737 it didn't need nearly all of 2km of dry into-wind runway to stop - brake saving measures possibly?).
... Finally, roughly 23-24 minutes after I'd called ready for departure (and after watching five aircraft movements) given take-off clearance. As a result, arrived back at my home airfield 5 minutes after closing time - not a habit I like to make.
I'm sure that every individual action that held me up was justifiable in some way (except for the lack of any clear signeage for visiting pilots to sign in), but it did appear that the general management was somewhat shambolic. Certainly inconsistent with the highest landing fee that I've paid in a couple of years, and irritating that it all made me late at both ends of my journey.
Or am I just turning into a grumpy old man?
G
Turned up, visual right base join, was asked to park on the grass next to Air Atlantique's fascinating collection of vintage aircraft (although gratified to note that my own taildragging steed was older and rarer than most of them). No problems so far.
Now what? No indication of where to go. Lacking guidance of any description walked to the tower. Waited 5 minutes for somebody to talk to me, eventually told "not here, somewhere the other side of your aeroplane". About ten minutes later, after several confused directions from passing airport staff who didn't seem to know either, eventually found my way to a place called "Anson House". Where, I must say everybody was very friendly and helpful - even got a free cup of Earl Grey tea, and a taxi ordered for me. However the £30 for landing + parking (from about 1100-1600!) was rather steep for a light single.
Went off to my meeting, got "stuff" done, returned to airport.
Sign out was easy enough - just phone the tower on a dedicated phone and pass my details. Five minute walk to my aircraft, start up, taxi to A1 hold, run-up, call ready for departure.
... and wait whilst they clear a couple of landing light aircraft
... and wait for several minutes whilst an A109 is hover-taxied across the runway for fuel.
This was about five minutes, fair enough.
... then wait (approx.) ten minutes whilst they decided to send various emergency services out on the runway to remove some "boards" (not entirely sure what).
... then remind tower I'm still waiting, told to wait for a 737 on the ILS.
... wait several minutes longer (plenty of time to get out), watch 737 land, told to line up and wait. This is 19 minutes after I originally called ready for departure.
... Now sit and watch 737 turning, backtracking half of the runway and turning off because it seemed to have landed long (I'm sure when I've been a pax in a full 737 it didn't need nearly all of 2km of dry into-wind runway to stop - brake saving measures possibly?).
... Finally, roughly 23-24 minutes after I'd called ready for departure (and after watching five aircraft movements) given take-off clearance. As a result, arrived back at my home airfield 5 minutes after closing time - not a habit I like to make.
I'm sure that every individual action that held me up was justifiable in some way (except for the lack of any clear signeage for visiting pilots to sign in), but it did appear that the general management was somewhat shambolic. Certainly inconsistent with the highest landing fee that I've paid in a couple of years, and irritating that it all made me late at both ends of my journey.
Or am I just turning into a grumpy old man?
G
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Sounds like your study of the NOTAMs wasn't as thorough as it might have been. Sorry if that sounds unduly harsh.
In particular the reason for the 737 landing long:
E)DURING DISPLACED THR RWY 05/23 OPR, BEGINNING OF LDA FOR DISPLACED
THR SHOWN BY BLACK AND WHITE MARKER BOARDS AT EDGE OF RWY.
BEGINNING OF TORA/TODA/ASDA FOR DISPLACED THR SHOWN BY ORANGE AND WHITE MARKER BOARDS AT EDGE OF RWY.
and the reason for your delay that had "something to do with boards"
E)DURING RWY WIP THE RWY WILL BE CLOSED 10 MINUTES PRIOR TO
IMPLIMENTATION OF REDUCED DISTANCES AND 10 MINUTES PRIOR TO REMOVAL OF REDUCED DISTANCES
In particular the reason for the 737 landing long:
E)DURING DISPLACED THR RWY 05/23 OPR, BEGINNING OF LDA FOR DISPLACED
THR SHOWN BY BLACK AND WHITE MARKER BOARDS AT EDGE OF RWY.
BEGINNING OF TORA/TODA/ASDA FOR DISPLACED THR SHOWN BY ORANGE AND WHITE MARKER BOARDS AT EDGE OF RWY.
and the reason for your delay that had "something to do with boards"
E)DURING RWY WIP THE RWY WILL BE CLOSED 10 MINUTES PRIOR TO
IMPLIMENTATION OF REDUCED DISTANCES AND 10 MINUTES PRIOR TO REMOVAL OF REDUCED DISTANCES
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No, I was well aware of that - other than not paying much attention to exactly what sort of boards they were. Can't say it really changes my views - I was waiting for well over double that time anyhow, and saw nothing that would have stopped them asking me to expedite before or after they did their stuff with the boards.
Put another way, what about the other 14 minutes?
G
Put another way, what about the other 14 minutes?
G
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OK then... so you understood why the 737 landed long, turned where it did and backtracked, and why there was a 10 minute wait for the boards to be put in place.
That leaves, by your own maths, only a fairly modest wait.
I think Coventry probably are unduly protective of their Commercial Traffic - a syndrome that most will recognise when any small airport suddenly starts to get proper passengers flying in and out. Cranfield gets similarly panicky when METMAN is out and about.
That may well be reflected in a slightly slow departure when commercial flights are around... but your original posting doesn't do justice to your knowledge of the WIP at the field at the moment, and the procedures associated with it.
2D
That leaves, by your own maths, only a fairly modest wait.
I think Coventry probably are unduly protective of their Commercial Traffic - a syndrome that most will recognise when any small airport suddenly starts to get proper passengers flying in and out. Cranfield gets similarly panicky when METMAN is out and about.
That may well be reflected in a slightly slow departure when commercial flights are around... but your original posting doesn't do justice to your knowledge of the WIP at the field at the moment, and the procedures associated with it.
2D
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You don't work there do you?
I fully accept that everything they specifically did was necessary. I just considered that the lack of any attempt to get me out at a convenient juncture somewhere in that 24 minutes was somewhat less than user-friendly.
Plus the lack of signeage at the parking, plus the extortionate landing and parking fee (£16+VAT is high but reasonable for a big airport, but £10 for 5 hours parking I felt a bit OTT given I apparently received no special service for this).
G
I fully accept that everything they specifically did was necessary. I just considered that the lack of any attempt to get me out at a convenient juncture somewhere in that 24 minutes was somewhat less than user-friendly.
Plus the lack of signeage at the parking, plus the extortionate landing and parking fee (£16+VAT is high but reasonable for a big airport, but £10 for 5 hours parking I felt a bit OTT given I apparently received no special service for this).
G
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I don't work there, but I do know a man that does, and have been hearing of the problems that they have been having from the other side. This includes aircraft disregarding the revised runway lengths and causing chaos.
Of the comments you make, the one I most whole-heartedly agree with has nothing to do with the delay. Rather, the total lack of organisation around getting visiting pilots from their aircraft, and out of the airport (and back again). Since the repainting of the Western Apron, that doesn't seem to have been given a moment's thought.
2D
Of the comments you make, the one I most whole-heartedly agree with has nothing to do with the delay. Rather, the total lack of organisation around getting visiting pilots from their aircraft, and out of the airport (and back again). Since the repainting of the Western Apron, that doesn't seem to have been given a moment's thought.
2D
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If you called for 'start permission' then they should probably have advised you to delay start for n minutes pending landing traffic/ inspections/ etc/ etc.
There seems to be a general 'flexing of the mussels' in the area, incl in the Class G ....
There seems to be a general 'flexing of the mussels' in the area, incl in the Class G ....
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Originally Posted by helicopter-redeye
If you called for 'start permission' then they should probably have advised you to delay start for n minutes pending landing traffic/ inspections/ etc/ etc.
There seems to be a general 'flexing of the mussels' in the area, incl in the Class G ....
There seems to be a general 'flexing of the mussels' in the area, incl in the Class G ....
Frankly if I'd known, at-least I could have shut the engine down for 20 minutes!
G
Ramasseur des pommes
Genghis,
Unfortunately, your experience is not atypical at Coventry. I've known cases of people being held for over half and hour at A1 and C2. I once went on a short, half-hour training flight only to return and orbit for ten minutes whilst the aircraft which had started up at the same time as me was still waiting for an airways clearance to be relayed from Birmingham on the runway.
Part of the trouble is the interminable runway closures which have been going on since last Autumn, including taxiway closures which create terrible bottlenecks. As a result, the commercial traffic does seem to get priority. Fortunately, my training has finished at Coventry, but it was a bit of a headache.
Generally the service at Coventry is good. During the summer, when hour-building, I visited several times and had no complaints. It is the WIP which has created a number of problems which each have a knock on effect. The only answer is to plan for it, but it's not necessarily easy to know as the WIP plans seem to change at short notice.
Unfortunately, your experience is not atypical at Coventry. I've known cases of people being held for over half and hour at A1 and C2. I once went on a short, half-hour training flight only to return and orbit for ten minutes whilst the aircraft which had started up at the same time as me was still waiting for an airways clearance to be relayed from Birmingham on the runway.
Part of the trouble is the interminable runway closures which have been going on since last Autumn, including taxiway closures which create terrible bottlenecks. As a result, the commercial traffic does seem to get priority. Fortunately, my training has finished at Coventry, but it was a bit of a headache.
Generally the service at Coventry is good. During the summer, when hour-building, I visited several times and had no complaints. It is the WIP which has created a number of problems which each have a knock on effect. The only answer is to plan for it, but it's not necessarily easy to know as the WIP plans seem to change at short notice.
High Flying Bird
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GtE - I learned to fly at Coventry ... fortunately well before it got busy with Thompson. It was never too bad, although the landing fees were steep for visitors and there was a lack of guidance on the ground. Sounds like I did well to move away before it got like this!
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As a complete contrast I went to Doncaster/Sheffield last Sunday
(I also went last year before they opened fully) £7.55 for the landing (PA28R) and an hours parking - I think it was 5p/hour for the parking.
Picked up by car from the GA parking area and very professional all round -
ground staff and ATC.
An ILS approach would've been 3 quid!!! That's for next months visit.
If you've got business in the area or just want a jolly to an 'international'
airport that welcomes GA, I'd recommend it.
7700
(I also went last year before they opened fully) £7.55 for the landing (PA28R) and an hours parking - I think it was 5p/hour for the parking.
Picked up by car from the GA parking area and very professional all round -
ground staff and ATC.
An ILS approach would've been 3 quid!!! That's for next months visit.
If you've got business in the area or just want a jolly to an 'international'
airport that welcomes GA, I'd recommend it.
7700
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Coventry
Comments ref. Cov agreed. Good experience v. helpful ATC but fees and parking not good value for money. Tried to haggle a discount for having to park on muddy grass and long walk. No chance. Try Kemble, really helpful, friendly excellent bar/restaurant and you get to do circuits with a Hunter 
.
MRG
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Coventry!
I remember 2 yrs ago flying well in open FIR from a southern airfield to midlands, calling East Mids for them complaining was I the traffic that flew near Coventry approach lane. Yes I was visual with the BAE146 but why whinge they had at the time an ATZ(2NM 2000FT) and I was 10 miles to the east!! If they are a major regional airport let us know at the time I said!! Airport operators in open FIR
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Unfortunately, I have to agree that Coventry are becoming over protective of "their" aircraft when it comes to transit traffic. It isn't uncommon for them to "control" passing VFR aircraft in Class G, in some cases to give 5nms separation.
This will result in some pilots choosing not to talk to them at all, as they are at liberty to do, which is counterproductive.
It is worth looking at the proposed large chunk of regulated airspace Coventry are demanding. The airspace they now wish to control is a main VFR and IFR GA transit route, if not THE main transit route of central UK. The proposal, if approved, will effectively close the gap between Brum and East Midlands airspaces and will cause a choke point to the east of Coventry where pilots aircraft cannot make MSA (1700 feet) but will be tempted to go under the CTA (below 1500 feet) to avoid delays.
This will result in some pilots choosing not to talk to them at all, as they are at liberty to do, which is counterproductive.
It is worth looking at the proposed large chunk of regulated airspace Coventry are demanding. The airspace they now wish to control is a main VFR and IFR GA transit route, if not THE main transit route of central UK. The proposal, if approved, will effectively close the gap between Brum and East Midlands airspaces and will cause a choke point to the east of Coventry where pilots aircraft cannot make MSA (1700 feet) but will be tempted to go under the CTA (below 1500 feet) to avoid delays.
don't think so ,unless it isn't idented
wrong again ,but thanks for your comments obviously your years of experience have paid off
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airac,
I'm not sure what your almost unintelligible post is really supposed to mean, all those "smilies" don't help. Please explain further, perhaps without so much apparent sarcasm.
The 5nm separation whilst VFR in class G has been my personal experience (and that of other pilots I have spoken to) on more than one occasion since Thompson began operating there.
Having previously looked at how the proposed new airspace interacts with the real world in the area I refer to, i.e. the choke point under the eastern end of the proposed CTZ, the MSA of 1700 ft appears correct. It certainly is no lower!
I'm not sure what your almost unintelligible post is really supposed to mean, all those "smilies" don't help. Please explain further, perhaps without so much apparent sarcasm.
The 5nm separation whilst VFR in class G has been my personal experience (and that of other pilots I have spoken to) on more than one occasion since Thompson began operating there.
Having previously looked at how the proposed new airspace interacts with the real world in the area I refer to, i.e. the choke point under the eastern end of the proposed CTZ, the MSA of 1700 ft appears correct. It certainly is no lower!
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shy torque. It was meant to be a short reply to your posting with reference to controlling VFR tfc "in some cases providing 5nm separation". That simply would not happen .IFR tfc may be vectored away from vfr a/c , if that VFR tfc was not identified ,but we in the uk have no requirement to provide standard separation between VFR flightsand or any other flights.
Your second point about the MSA .I was pointing out that yet again you were wrong ,if Rugby masts are 1122' you would not have a MSA figure of 1700' also under what rules do VFR flights have to comply with the MSA anyway??
apologies if you thought I was speaking in a foriegn tongue
Your second point about the MSA .I was pointing out that yet again you were wrong ,if Rugby masts are 1122' you would not have a MSA figure of 1700' also under what rules do VFR flights have to comply with the MSA anyway??
apologies if you thought I was speaking in a foriegn tongue
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We had a 20 minute wait at the hold while the firecrew filled these marker boards up with water to stop them blowing away! 20 mins at £200 per hour gets a little upsetting, when a GA a/c poses little threat to a big fire engine! especially when there's still 900 metres of fine tarmac ahead of us.
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Yup.
Fortunately, my steed is on a tacho not a hobbs, so only accreted 0.1 in that time, but I'd still rather have been told "you will be holding for 20 minutes" and just shut down for a while.
Actually, I'd rather have held for five and been told to expedite before they closed the runway for a while.
G
Fortunately, my steed is on a tacho not a hobbs, so only accreted 0.1 in that time, but I'd still rather have been told "you will be holding for 20 minutes" and just shut down for a while.
Actually, I'd rather have held for five and been told to expedite before they closed the runway for a while.
G
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I know where you're coming from though. I don't know what was said to you but when we called up the tower (by phone) nothing was said to us about any 737 inbound or reduced distances. Even the Atis doesn't report it on occasion.
Granted its NOTAM'd - but its completely intermittant when they decide to enforce these reduced distances (could be wrong - just seems it
)
Granted its NOTAM'd - but its completely intermittant when they decide to enforce these reduced distances (could be wrong - just seems it
)