difference in IR and IMC rating
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IO540,
As rustle says there is the initial test and then the renewal every 25months or less.
Examiners can not base a clear cut fail / pass with regard to minima on personal opinion. The reason being that the candidate who failed for using a DH of 300ft when it should have been 500ft (IR holders DH 200ft) could appeal to the CAA. Thankfully such an appeal is a waste of time because the CAA will simply say that the absolute minima which must be used is 500ft DH.
So with the CAA saying that the absolute minima is 500ft DH and 600ft MDH, the Examiners using that as a standard, the instructors teaching that as the way it is to be done do you honestly think that they are all wrong?
The IMC rating will not be round in the long term. Changes in airspace and European licensing will ause the end of the IMC rating or make is unuseable. What we are waiting to see is if a second class IR for those that can't get the IR will have requirements that are simpler to apply such as IR minima plus 300ft and RVR/VIS+1000m. That kind of limitation would be easy to understand, easy to apply and easy to understand.
Regards,
DFC
As rustle says there is the initial test and then the renewal every 25months or less.
Examiners can not base a clear cut fail / pass with regard to minima on personal opinion. The reason being that the candidate who failed for using a DH of 300ft when it should have been 500ft (IR holders DH 200ft) could appeal to the CAA. Thankfully such an appeal is a waste of time because the CAA will simply say that the absolute minima which must be used is 500ft DH.
So with the CAA saying that the absolute minima is 500ft DH and 600ft MDH, the Examiners using that as a standard, the instructors teaching that as the way it is to be done do you honestly think that they are all wrong?
The IMC rating will not be round in the long term. Changes in airspace and European licensing will ause the end of the IMC rating or make is unuseable. What we are waiting to see is if a second class IR for those that can't get the IR will have requirements that are simpler to apply such as IR minima plus 300ft and RVR/VIS+1000m. That kind of limitation would be easy to understand, easy to apply and easy to understand.
Regards,
DFC
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Not this old chestnut again!
My examiner has asked the CAA whether the minima are advisory or mandatory - the answer was they advisory. We ignored the advisory limits at my last renewal, and I was very happy to do so.
The CAA will tell you they recommend the IMCR as a "get you home rating". I would agree in terms of the standard set by the initial test and the underlying training. However the rating on grant entitles you to fly hard IFR with sector to sector IMC to minima. Thats tough with the basic IMCR training.
DFC - I have no idea what the test standard has to do with what the ANO or the CAA have to say about this issue. You pass your driving test with having never driven on a motorway, but you can do so the day after you pass.
DFC - "The important word I am told is in fact but."
By whom are you told this????
DFC - "The IMC rating will not be round in the long term. Changes in airspace and European licensing"
- who says, or is this just speculation on your part?
Fortunately if it is withdrawn at least existing holders will get grandfather rights to son of IMCR or will they just be given a full PPLIR - I for one will be seeing my MP if not!
My examiner has asked the CAA whether the minima are advisory or mandatory - the answer was they advisory. We ignored the advisory limits at my last renewal, and I was very happy to do so.
The CAA will tell you they recommend the IMCR as a "get you home rating". I would agree in terms of the standard set by the initial test and the underlying training. However the rating on grant entitles you to fly hard IFR with sector to sector IMC to minima. Thats tough with the basic IMCR training.
DFC - I have no idea what the test standard has to do with what the ANO or the CAA have to say about this issue. You pass your driving test with having never driven on a motorway, but you can do so the day after you pass.
DFC - "The important word I am told is in fact but."
By whom are you told this????
DFC - "The IMC rating will not be round in the long term. Changes in airspace and European licensing"
- who says, or is this just speculation on your part?
Fortunately if it is withdrawn at least existing holders will get grandfather rights to son of IMCR or will they just be given a full PPLIR - I for one will be seeing my MP if not!
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If I already hold an IMC rating (as I do) but decide to take an FAA IR to fly my N-reg in airways and in Europe, can anyone see any point in keeping the IMCR valid? As I see it, I can fly with greater than IMCR privilages in the UK in a G-reg aircraft if I have an FAA IR. It just seems wrong to let something that I put so much time, effort and money into getting (and keeping current) lapse.
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A good question.
The main scenario I can imagine where one might wish to keep a valid IMCR (and, by implication, a valid UK/JAA PPL and a valid CAA medical) is where one feels one can't keep up with the FAA currency requirements of 6 approaches in the past 6 months. Then, if your FAA IFR currency lapses, you can continue IFR in the UK on the IMCR privileges.
However, an aircraft owner should be able to easily maintain the 6/6 currency, but someone who is renting, and/or short of money, perhaps cannot. And very few non-owners will be flying under an FAA IR.
A rather more theoretical scenario is where you really believe that the UK Govt will succeed in their proposed prohibition on long term parking of N-reg planes in the UK. Then you would need to revert to the IMCR to have any IFR privileges at all. Or if EASA manages to do the same; however they have lately been indicating they would prefer the carrot route rather than the DfT's stick route.
I was planning to let the 150-quid UK medical lapse. I will keep paying for the JAA PPL every 5 years. It's easy enough to arrange a ride every 24 months which, in one flight, gives you the FAA BFR, the UK PPL renewal, the IMCR renewal all on one flight of an hour or so. Then, AIUI, if I ever need the UK stuff again, I will just pay up for the CAA medical.
"I can fly with greater than IMCR privilages in the UK in a G-reg aircraft if I have an FAA IR"
Sadly not. An FAA IR in a G-reg gives you IFR privileges in the UK but only in Class G, whereas the IMCR gives you IFR in D-G.
An FAA IR holder can purchase the IMCR from the CAA for just the cheque payment, but he also needs a valid UK or JAA PPL to attach that to...
The main scenario I can imagine where one might wish to keep a valid IMCR (and, by implication, a valid UK/JAA PPL and a valid CAA medical) is where one feels one can't keep up with the FAA currency requirements of 6 approaches in the past 6 months. Then, if your FAA IFR currency lapses, you can continue IFR in the UK on the IMCR privileges.
However, an aircraft owner should be able to easily maintain the 6/6 currency, but someone who is renting, and/or short of money, perhaps cannot. And very few non-owners will be flying under an FAA IR.
A rather more theoretical scenario is where you really believe that the UK Govt will succeed in their proposed prohibition on long term parking of N-reg planes in the UK. Then you would need to revert to the IMCR to have any IFR privileges at all. Or if EASA manages to do the same; however they have lately been indicating they would prefer the carrot route rather than the DfT's stick route.
I was planning to let the 150-quid UK medical lapse. I will keep paying for the JAA PPL every 5 years. It's easy enough to arrange a ride every 24 months which, in one flight, gives you the FAA BFR, the UK PPL renewal, the IMCR renewal all on one flight of an hour or so. Then, AIUI, if I ever need the UK stuff again, I will just pay up for the CAA medical.
"I can fly with greater than IMCR privilages in the UK in a G-reg aircraft if I have an FAA IR"
Sadly not. An FAA IR in a G-reg gives you IFR privileges in the UK but only in Class G, whereas the IMCR gives you IFR in D-G.
An FAA IR holder can purchase the IMCR from the CAA for just the cheque payment, but he also needs a valid UK or JAA PPL to attach that to...
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Originally Posted by 3FallinFlyer
If I already hold an IMC rating (as I do) but decide to take an FAA IR to fly my N-reg in airways and in Europe, can anyone see any point in keeping the IMCR valid? As I see it, I can fly with greater than IMCR privilages in the UK in a G-reg aircraft if I have an FAA IR. It just seems wrong to let something that I put so much time, effort and money into getting (and keeping current) lapse.
You would qualify for an IMC rating on the basis of your IR, but you'd still have to renew it every 25 months or revalidate your FAA IR through flight test (not just 6 approaches in 6 months) and re-apply for an IMC.
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Originally Posted by 3FallinFlyer
If I already hold an IMC rating (as I do) but decide to take an FAA IR to fly my N-reg in airways and in Europe, can anyone see any point in keeping the IMCR valid?
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Thanks for some very good points, I think I'll keep the IMCR current for the time being. I am interested in the concept of being able to take an IMC checkride and BFR in one flight that would also qualify for the 2-yearly 1 hour with an instructor for the JAR PPL requirement. Pressumably, this would need to be done with someone who is both a CAA examiner (for IMC renewal) and an FAA instructor qualified to sign off the BFR in an N-reg aircraft.
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3FF - correct and there are a few of these around - a very good guy at Oxford for example who will do your IMCR, FAA BFR and CoA (or whatever it is called these days) in the same check ride.
Mind you I gather some are getting a bit picky now the CAA thinks it should give some guidance on the material that should be included in the CoA
.
Mind you I gather some are getting a bit picky now the CAA thinks it should give some guidance on the material that should be included in the CoA
.
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"91.175 forbids it"
I did point this out to the FAA instructors and examiners in the USA recently, and their view is that this applies only in airspace where you need ATC clearance for flying the procedure.
In the USA, one has Class E down to a very low level (700ft or 1200ft; I can't remember the rules) which means that most or all of the IAP will require ATC clearance (because E is CAS for IFR).
But if you did the descent wholly in Class G, the view was that you are free to do what you like.
In any event, one can legally fly at the MOCA, which (in non-mountainous terrain; another expression which means one thing here and another over there) is 1000ft above the highest elevation within 4nm. This amounts to a DIY IAP with a 1000ft MDH, doesn't it?
"Pressumably, this would need to be done with someone who is both a CAA examiner (for IMC renewal) and an FAA instructor qualified to sign off the BFR in an N-reg aircraft."
One can do it all in a G-reg, but for JAA stuff needs a JAA instructor rating, the FAA BFR needs a FAA CFI rating, the FAA IPC needs an FAA CFII rating, doing any paid work in any aircraft reg in UK airspace needs the JAA instructor rating, and doing any paid work in an N-reg needs the DfT permission
There are dual JAA+FAA instructors around, but expensive, and you still need the DfT permission of doing it in an N-reg (unless he does it for nothing).
I hope I got that right.....
I did point this out to the FAA instructors and examiners in the USA recently, and their view is that this applies only in airspace where you need ATC clearance for flying the procedure.
In the USA, one has Class E down to a very low level (700ft or 1200ft; I can't remember the rules) which means that most or all of the IAP will require ATC clearance (because E is CAS for IFR).
But if you did the descent wholly in Class G, the view was that you are free to do what you like.
In any event, one can legally fly at the MOCA, which (in non-mountainous terrain; another expression which means one thing here and another over there) is 1000ft above the highest elevation within 4nm. This amounts to a DIY IAP with a 1000ft MDH, doesn't it?
"Pressumably, this would need to be done with someone who is both a CAA examiner (for IMC renewal) and an FAA instructor qualified to sign off the BFR in an N-reg aircraft."
One can do it all in a G-reg, but for JAA stuff needs a JAA instructor rating, the FAA BFR needs a FAA CFI rating, the FAA IPC needs an FAA CFII rating, doing any paid work in any aircraft reg in UK airspace needs the JAA instructor rating, and doing any paid work in an N-reg needs the DfT permission
There are dual JAA+FAA instructors around, but expensive, and you still need the DfT permission of doing it in an N-reg (unless he does it for nothing).
I hope I got that right.....
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Originally Posted by IO540
This amounts to a DIY IAP with a 1000ft MDH, doesn't it?
Last edited by slim_slag; 5th Mar 2006 at 00:01.
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Clearly 91.179 (b) is what applies to Class G and I don't see the problem, assuming the word "turning" is the same as "manoeuvering" which is what one does when landing.
I agree that on a strict reading one probably gets better privileges for a DIY IAP with an IMCR (in a G or N) than with an IR in an N-reg.
The IMCR should be valid in an N-reg (I have checked with both the CAA and the FAA) and additionally the FAA permits the exercise of foreign license privileges (FAR 61.3). So the full privileges of an IMCR should work in an N-reg. But we've been around this one before
The practical question is how low would you go on a DIY IAP anyway? 1000ft is a reasonable MDH. I know lots of people go lower, especially using the unpublished IAPs which exist at various UK airfields; sometimes these were real IAPs at one stage and were "lost" when ATC left, others are approved only for use by based commercial ops. Most have been CAA-surveyed.
I agree that on a strict reading one probably gets better privileges for a DIY IAP with an IMCR (in a G or N) than with an IR in an N-reg.
The IMCR should be valid in an N-reg (I have checked with both the CAA and the FAA) and additionally the FAA permits the exercise of foreign license privileges (FAR 61.3). So the full privileges of an IMCR should work in an N-reg. But we've been around this one before
The practical question is how low would you go on a DIY IAP anyway? 1000ft is a reasonable MDH. I know lots of people go lower, especially using the unpublished IAPs which exist at various UK airfields; sometimes these were real IAPs at one stage and were "lost" when ATC left, others are approved only for use by based commercial ops. Most have been CAA-surveyed.
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we all know that DFc has an ABSOLUTE viw that he is always correct, when most of the time his interpretation is just that his interpretation......
However for a man who does not fly (he cant possibley fly with the time he spends making up rules and speculating) he does pretty well at interpretation....
However for a man who does not fly (he cant possibley fly with the time he spends making up rules and speculating) he does pretty well at interpretation....
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I think DFC is right. The lowest DA for an IMC pilot is 500' + PEC and the lowest MDA is 600. I admit to having to rummage through my notes and the Thom book for confirmation. I was taught to add 200' to the OCH and use the greater of 500'/600' and the OCH+200 and then add the PEC for a precision approach. If I recall my conversations with the CFI correctly, the adding 200' bit is recommended. the 500'/600' is a must.
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DFC is wrong, I and a number of others have it in WRITING from the CAA that they are ADVISORY limits and not legal limits. The only LEGAL limit is the 1800m horizontal vis.
There is a lot of myth generated on these and other forums. Dont you know it is a great British tradition to make up new and ever more restrictive laws and live by them? The French have many flaws but at least the know when to ignore stupidity.
Someone pass me the salt please.....
There is a lot of myth generated on these and other forums. Dont you know it is a great British tradition to make up new and ever more restrictive laws and live by them? The French have many flaws but at least the know when to ignore stupidity.
Someone pass me the salt please.....
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"Trevor Thom book for confirmation"
The last thing I would use a TT book for is confirmation of some relatively obscure point of aviation regs.
"If I recall my conversations with the CFI correctly"
Likewise. Most instructors don't understand any of this stuff, no need to.
Much of the ANO is badly drafted anyway, and the CAA has issued countless flyers which are equally ambiguous and which don't make it clear that something is advisory. I don't know why they do that. I suppose they have a number of people in there who like writing all these flyers and who can't be bothered to pass everything by their legal department. I know they can do it right, because some of their stuff is very well written, and has obviously been gone over.
The aviation mags will (usually) publish any old nonsense without checking (unsuprising; are they going to pay an aviation lawyer for an opinion on each point?) so this stuff makes its way into airport bars. The copious number of online pilot forums just keeps propagating the stuff...
The last thing I would use a TT book for is confirmation of some relatively obscure point of aviation regs.
"If I recall my conversations with the CFI correctly"
Likewise. Most instructors don't understand any of this stuff, no need to.
Much of the ANO is badly drafted anyway, and the CAA has issued countless flyers which are equally ambiguous and which don't make it clear that something is advisory. I don't know why they do that. I suppose they have a number of people in there who like writing all these flyers and who can't be bothered to pass everything by their legal department. I know they can do it right, because some of their stuff is very well written, and has obviously been gone over.
The aviation mags will (usually) publish any old nonsense without checking (unsuprising; are they going to pay an aviation lawyer for an opinion on each point?) so this stuff makes its way into airport bars. The copious number of online pilot forums just keeps propagating the stuff...
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Originally Posted by bose-x
DFC is wrong, I and a number of others have it in WRITING from the CAA that they are ADVISORY limits and not legal limits.
If it's a paper letter can you scan it and post the image (I'm happy to host the picture if needs be)
If it's an email can you paste it (including the date and name of the signatory).
It isn't that I don't believe you (it makes no odds to me if them's the rules) but it should settle the argument once and for all.
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IO540, I know there is a lot of nonsense written on here, and I am sure I am responsible for some of it, but it simply beggars belief that in order to justify the breach of clearly written regulations you can assume
. Why can it be that
when they don't give you the answer you want, yet you will say
when an instructor does give you the answer you want?
How do you expect an FAA instructor to understand the way airspace is used in the UK, I can only assume your questions were leading and you stopped once they agreed with you. Your knowledge of the FARs is fundamentally lacking.
the word "turning" is the same as "manoeuvering" which is what one does when landing'
most instructors don't understand any of this stuff, no need to
I did point this out to the FAA instructors and examiners in the USA recently, and their view is that this applies only in airspace where you need ATC clearance for flying the procedure.
How do you expect an FAA instructor to understand the way airspace is used in the UK, I can only assume your questions were leading and you stopped once they agreed with you. Your knowledge of the FARs is fundamentally lacking.