Approach to Stansted
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Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Ware, Herts. England
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Approach to Stansted
I fly a non radio vintage aircraft around the Ware area,(J1 Auster) around 1000', but am getting more reluctant to do so due to the Stansted airport situation as regards Ware-a lot of my friends there are commenting adversely to me about aircraft noise over the town, especially late at night and early morning. I try and explain that it is not us GA guys, but is due to the huge expansion of Stansted flights in last 2 years, and the fact that they appear to be on a curving approach(CDA?) over the town at altitudes of down to approx 2500'. As I'm not familiar with Stansted approaches can anyone explain why a higher approach (obviously not infringing Luton or such) or moving the approach path slightly off the path of the town, could not be flown? I feel a bit of a dummy not being able to explain to people why this may not be possible so any advice would be appreciated from someone who knows.
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I think what you are asking is a fair question. However I think a fairer question should be put to those who are complaining about a/c noise.
Ask them when they moved to the area? Chances are they moved when STN was already there. If this is the case, and some may feel this view is a bit clinical, then I would point out to them that their right to complain about noise is greatly, if not completely, removed.
Do not live near an international airport and expect it to be peaceful! Its not going to happen. Do point out to those whingers that a/c flying into STN have a limit that they will descend to at ATC's request, but not lower. Also advise them that many companies perform low drag approaches to try and reduce noise as much as possible, but on occasions this is not always feasible and also point out to them that engines today are generally more environmentally friendlier than in the past.
If they further ask questions and nag then suggest they call the hotline on: 0898 TUF LUCK!
Bit harsh....
? maybe but seriously!
Ask them when they moved to the area? Chances are they moved when STN was already there. If this is the case, and some may feel this view is a bit clinical, then I would point out to them that their right to complain about noise is greatly, if not completely, removed.
Do not live near an international airport and expect it to be peaceful! Its not going to happen. Do point out to those whingers that a/c flying into STN have a limit that they will descend to at ATC's request, but not lower. Also advise them that many companies perform low drag approaches to try and reduce noise as much as possible, but on occasions this is not always feasible and also point out to them that engines today are generally more environmentally friendlier than in the past.
If they further ask questions and nag then suggest they call the hotline on: 0898 TUF LUCK!
Bit harsh....
? maybe but seriously!
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Some Ware residents are complaining on a local website regarding the noise
http://www.wareonline.co.uk/haveyour...?TOPIC_ID=1329
http://www.wareonline.co.uk/haveyour...?TOPIC_ID=1329
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I know nothing about the UK aviation system, let alone the situation at Stanstead, but the thought occurs to me that aircraft flying CDAs should be less noisy than those that don't. And why on earth would they only fly a CDA down to 2500 feet?
I'd have thought that ATCOs would prefer to encourage CDA wherever possible because of their own obligations for noise abatement. Maybe someone can enlighten us all?
I'd have thought that ATCOs would prefer to encourage CDA wherever possible because of their own obligations for noise abatement. Maybe someone can enlighten us all?
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don't know if this helps but the IFR routes for all the airliners ARE very defined in respect to routes to avoid the towns.
on a clear day if you look out he window you can see the towns the route planners had in mind as we skirt them. The only changes I've seen recently is that we get kept lower for longer but with fewer speed restrictions. so for example you might get held a 3 or 5000 feet but have no speed limitation which means you have full climb power on in level flight until reaching 280 - 300 knots depending on the aircraft.
the CDA if anything will make the whole approach quieter unless your live a 3 mile final where it always gets noisier as most airline require aircraft to be fully configured by 1000' with the power up. on the CDA that usually means the flaps and gear are out and the thrust increases just before that point.
the only obvious exception I know is landing on 05 from the north or north west as you fly to the west of STN then join a low alt vectored approach on downwind where most guys get it down quickly as the final turn to intercept the ILS is always about 7 miles so you need to be 'set up' or have anticipated the turn. the easiest way (if not quite the prettiest) is high speed, altitude off and configure in the final turn - all unfortunately noisey.
having lived at 2 mile final at in international airport I can sympathise with your friends. they really have to move if it annoys them. not fair, always expensive but unfortunately it can only get worse round there.
on a clear day if you look out he window you can see the towns the route planners had in mind as we skirt them. The only changes I've seen recently is that we get kept lower for longer but with fewer speed restrictions. so for example you might get held a 3 or 5000 feet but have no speed limitation which means you have full climb power on in level flight until reaching 280 - 300 knots depending on the aircraft.
the CDA if anything will make the whole approach quieter unless your live a 3 mile final where it always gets noisier as most airline require aircraft to be fully configured by 1000' with the power up. on the CDA that usually means the flaps and gear are out and the thrust increases just before that point.
the only obvious exception I know is landing on 05 from the north or north west as you fly to the west of STN then join a low alt vectored approach on downwind where most guys get it down quickly as the final turn to intercept the ILS is always about 7 miles so you need to be 'set up' or have anticipated the turn. the easiest way (if not quite the prettiest) is high speed, altitude off and configure in the final turn - all unfortunately noisey.
having lived at 2 mile final at in international airport I can sympathise with your friends. they really have to move if it annoys them. not fair, always expensive but unfortunately it can only get worse round there.
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Oh joy. Just had a quick look and having read 7 or 8 posts I am now convinced that no one posting there has a clue. They should be fwded the 0898 number or be sent on a course about fact finding!
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I've looked at that site, its full of whingers whom clearly havent got a clue.
"Oh my that planes flying a bit low"...and "they fly according to the direction of the wind"
Thats it, dont move near an airport if you cant stand the noise.
"Oh my that planes flying a bit low"...and "they fly according to the direction of the wind"
Thats it, dont move near an airport if you cant stand the noise.
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The airspace to the north of BPK, the BKY area and east out to ABBOT then CLN is highly congested, not just with inbounds to EGSS and EGGW but all it's outbounds. When you factor in just how close EGGW and EGLC are too, then you have a real mess which is basically what that area is. The reason you can't fly the approaches higher is that all that airspace intersects and conflicts and there are rules on what level all a/c have to be round there just to keep things shifting. If EGSS inbounds on 05 were allowed to have a nice quiet CDA no eastbound departures from EGGW 08 could get airborne or any northbound departures of EGLC and it may even affect EGLL departures via BPK. God only knows how we are going to cope with FLYBE putting 6 ( I await correction) aircraft into EGMC. If the approach was higher for 23 then the 2 holds for EGGW and EGSS (for they are shared) would have to be moved and there is no controlled airspace to the north of EGSS. NATS is unable to get the GA community and the military to asllow them to have any more.
The reason it's noisier early and late is because that basically is when the Ryanairs and Easyjets start and finish their day. As for curved approaches - not an option on 05 anyway - but MLS got superceded by GPS and aircraft can't fly an RNAV approach (not that one exists for EGSS) if there are any other aircraft in the close proximity.
So I hope that answers some of your questions. As ever the basic problem is that we try to fit a pint into a half pint pot. A la british aviation standard.
The reason it's noisier early and late is because that basically is when the Ryanairs and Easyjets start and finish their day. As for curved approaches - not an option on 05 anyway - but MLS got superceded by GPS and aircraft can't fly an RNAV approach (not that one exists for EGSS) if there are any other aircraft in the close proximity.
So I hope that answers some of your questions. As ever the basic problem is that we try to fit a pint into a half pint pot. A la british aviation standard.
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You are wrong about light a/c being free of blame. Ware is a much used VRP in and outbound to/from the various N London airfields, bottlenecked by the Luton and Stansted zones.
In my experience, Essex radar are experts in the art of giving contant descent profiles, and I have stood in this general area, and remarked on how quiet the commercial traffic is compared to the repeated droning of various light aeroplanes.
In my experience, Essex radar are experts in the art of giving contant descent profiles, and I have stood in this general area, and remarked on how quiet the commercial traffic is compared to the repeated droning of various light aeroplanes.
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My favourite comment:
That'll be the Stanstead to JFK lunchtime Chinook formation, love.
Did anyone see the two aircraft flying low over Ware South this lunchtime (1pm ish)? I say aircraft, the best I can do is that they looked like Chinooks
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Originally Posted by ALLDAYDELI
I've looked at that site, its full of whingers whom clearly havent got a clue.
"Oh my that planes flying a bit low"...and "they fly according to the direction of the wind"
Thats it, dont move near an airport if you can't stand the noise.
"Oh my that planes flying a bit low"...and "they fly according to the direction of the wind"
Thats it, dont move near an airport if you can't stand the noise.
So if you buy a house on a "B" road and someone decides it would make a nice motorway (demand's up, don't you know) you'd have no objection to me suggesting "don't move near a road if you can't stand the noise"?
Rather than pissing on those folk for complaining, why doesn't someone remind them that since Buncefield(sp?) burnt down they're now seeing a lot more heavies into Stansted for fuel...
Heavies that wouldn't normally be there, and that probably aren't covered by the early morning / late evening embargo.
Heavies that might look lower than the 737-800s they're used to seeing because they're bigger.
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B737NewGen.. think you need to be careful on this one. If you go back only 15 years or so Stansted was used much more infrequently, mainly for freight, so it is possible the residents came first. It is also 15 miles odd away from STN.. close ?
Many valid points here re CTR, it starts at 1500 over Ware which forces GA lower, however its only a small town so no real reason not to go around or transit south of A10 and the Meads. But there lies another issue in that on the outskirts from the ground you may be accused of overflying the town.
When I lived in Ware, under the flightpath, the local chavs racing their Cherry bomb Novas caused more nuisance.
Strafer. The chinooks are pretty intrusive. Certainly give enough warning to go and have a fag break.
Sturmvogel.. will keep an eye out for you. Are you based at High Cross? I flew from Benington a bit last year.
Many valid points here re CTR, it starts at 1500 over Ware which forces GA lower, however its only a small town so no real reason not to go around or transit south of A10 and the Meads. But there lies another issue in that on the outskirts from the ground you may be accused of overflying the town.
When I lived in Ware, under the flightpath, the local chavs racing their Cherry bomb Novas caused more nuisance.
Strafer. The chinooks are pretty intrusive. Certainly give enough warning to go and have a fag break.
Sturmvogel.. will keep an eye out for you. Are you based at High Cross? I flew from Benington a bit last year.
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reply to ARLG
Now, not High Cross-Little Gransden. Incidentally, talking of Chinooks in Ware area, one needs to keep extra sharp lookout generally as Fanhams Hall has now turned into an 'upmarket' hotel-weekend weddings, etc. so one can expect private helicopters around there I would think.
