NPPL restrictions
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 81
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NPPL restrictions
Help needed please.
Talking to some pals about where I would like to visit when I obtain my NPPL and also after I have some more flying experience.
We used to sail to Alderney which is one of the nicest places we reckon we ever visited by sea.
The trouble is, I believe it's in French air space so does this mean I can't officially go there with my NPPL licence?
I think there are plans afoot to liberalise the rights of a NPPL in Europe,but that could take years.
Lister
Talking to some pals about where I would like to visit when I obtain my NPPL and also after I have some more flying experience.
We used to sail to Alderney which is one of the nicest places we reckon we ever visited by sea.
The trouble is, I believe it's in French air space so does this mean I can't officially go there with my NPPL licence?
I think there are plans afoot to liberalise the rights of a NPPL in Europe,but that could take years.
Lister
Last edited by Lister Noble; 28th Dec 2005 at 09:51.
Mr Lister, Sir.
I'll start it off, so at least there's someone to shoot down in flames, if necessary.
I would think that you can't go to Alderney on an NPPL as it isn't UK airspace.
However if you had an NPPL (M) and any old microlight you like, well feel free Mr Lister, old chap.
Ridiculous.
I'll start it off, so at least there's someone to shoot down in flames, if necessary.
I would think that you can't go to Alderney on an NPPL as it isn't UK airspace.
However if you had an NPPL (M) and any old microlight you like, well feel free Mr Lister, old chap.
Ridiculous.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 81
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys,
Looks like I will have to be happy with UK airspace for a while unless I fly on a microlight licence,which then cuts out the older planes I want to fly.
Unless I had both microlight and NPPL licences?
Anyway by the time I'm ready to try the Channel Isles I think the rules may have changed,if not, then the old body permitting an upgrade to PPL seems logical.
The flight training and exams are almost identical it's just the medical that's tougher.
It's all a bit of a jungle type maze sorting out the "reasons" for these different licence privileges.
Lister
Looks like I will have to be happy with UK airspace for a while unless I fly on a microlight licence,which then cuts out the older planes I want to fly.
Unless I had both microlight and NPPL licences?
Anyway by the time I'm ready to try the Channel Isles I think the rules may have changed,if not, then the old body permitting an upgrade to PPL seems logical.
The flight training and exams are almost identical it's just the medical that's tougher.
It's all a bit of a jungle type maze sorting out the "reasons" for these different licence privileges.
Lister
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Surrey
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have very often flown VFR to the CI, and I'd like to see an expert interpretation on this. For example, I have been definatively told by a manager at Guernsey Airport that the IMC rating is valid in the Jersey Zone. If the IMCR, why not the NPPL?
The IMCR is invaluable, as for non IMC PPLs, the minimum vis for VFR in the Class A zone is 10K, but for IMCR holders its 3K. Not many days can you be sure that the common sea haze will not drop below 10K during the day, whatever the forecast.
Also, a few years ago they made the CTRs Class D up to 2000ft, and with a common haze top of 1200ft - 1500ft, gin clear above, one can legally fly in the Class A SVFR above the haze top, descending within the CTR for an instrument approach down to a 1800m vis with an IMCR.
Its a different subject, but to me, I think the opportunity to attach an IMCR to the NPPL is a priority. In the unpredictable conditions of vis in the CI, especially in settled weather, I wouldn't go there without.
But, as I said above, lets hear from an expert on the original point.
Mike.
The IMCR is invaluable, as for non IMC PPLs, the minimum vis for VFR in the Class A zone is 10K, but for IMCR holders its 3K. Not many days can you be sure that the common sea haze will not drop below 10K during the day, whatever the forecast.
Also, a few years ago they made the CTRs Class D up to 2000ft, and with a common haze top of 1200ft - 1500ft, gin clear above, one can legally fly in the Class A SVFR above the haze top, descending within the CTR for an instrument approach down to a 1800m vis with an IMCR.
Its a different subject, but to me, I think the opportunity to attach an IMCR to the NPPL is a priority. In the unpredictable conditions of vis in the CI, especially in settled weather, I wouldn't go there without.
But, as I said above, lets hear from an expert on the original point.
Mike.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are we 100% sure that it's not UK airspace? I seem to remember someone here saying something like, it being UK airspace during the day, and reverting to French airspace at night; or some such strange arrangement.
Anyway, if you can't go there on a NPPL, don't forget that that doesn't really prevent you from flying there. It just means that you can't be the pilot in command. You could of course link up with a JAA PPL friend, who would act as the pilot in command for the flight, while you could be the pilot handling the aircraft. Of course you could not log the flight (unless the friend was an instructor). But at least you could make the trip, and add to the experience bag, and halve the costs & workload of the trip.
dp
Anyway, if you can't go there on a NPPL, don't forget that that doesn't really prevent you from flying there. It just means that you can't be the pilot in command. You could of course link up with a JAA PPL friend, who would act as the pilot in command for the flight, while you could be the pilot handling the aircraft. Of course you could not log the flight (unless the friend was an instructor). But at least you could make the trip, and add to the experience bag, and halve the costs & workload of the trip.
dp
Its got nothing to do with whos FIR it is so don't blame the French. The CI have their own rules, they are neither in the UK nor the JAA for that matter, and for some reason they have deceided not to permit the NPPL (SSEA) in their airspace. Microllights and Motorgliders seem to be OK.
So, fly to the Channel Islands and at the boundary turn off the engine and glide in.
Makes as much sense as their rules.
Whopity - couldn't we just pretend and blame the French, anyway?
Makes as much sense as their rules.
Whopity - couldn't we just pretend and blame the French, anyway?
Intelligent Idiot
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cleethorpes, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whopity - couldn't we just pretend and blame the French, anyway?
Make em move France down to Portugal.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some months ago, somebody here who sort-of pretended to know so much he sounded like he worked for the CAA ("cathar"?) stated that the CI are always UK airspace, and the other well circulated story about the whole lot reverting to French airspace at night is not true.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahem,
The CI CTR lies within the BREST FIR.
The airspace is DELEGATED to JERSEY ATC during their hours of operation.
Outside of these hours (nightime) the airspace reverts to BREST CONTROL (ID sector 125.5).
The airspace is then Class G SFC to FL115 and CLass E FL120 to FL195. FL200-FL255 IS Class B.
(Above that is the JS and JU sectors).
Rgds BEX
The CI CTR lies within the BREST FIR.
The airspace is DELEGATED to JERSEY ATC during their hours of operation.
Outside of these hours (nightime) the airspace reverts to BREST CONTROL (ID sector 125.5).
The airspace is then Class G SFC to FL115 and CLass E FL120 to FL195. FL200-FL255 IS Class B.
(Above that is the JS and JU sectors).
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Channel Islands are not part of the UK. As far as I am aware the only link they have with the UK is that like Canada and Australia, they have the same person as Head of State(s). The teritories and their teritorial waters and airspace belong to the State of Jersey and the State of Guernsey (not France and not the UK). They are also not part of the EU.
For ATS regional reasons, the Channel Islands lie within the Brest FIR. As independent States, the CI decide what and who can fly in their airspace and what regulations pertain including what class of Airspace. These details are published in the French AIP and by agreement the UK AIP.
The Manager at Guernsey was perfectly correct to say that holding an IMC rating removes the requirement for 10K visibility when on a special VFR clearance. However, that applies world wide provided local regulations are not more restrictive.
When it comes to flying a UK aircraft abroad, there are two issues.
1. The aircraft must have a valid and appropriate ICAO C of A. If it only has a permit to fly then prior permission of the non-UK state is required. Some countries within Europe have given automatic right of access to certain UK permit to fly aircraft and the UK recriprocates.
2. The pilot must hold a valid ICAO standard licence. National licenses and Ratings may be accepted if an application is made (has anyone applied to visit France on an NPPL in a C172?) and approved. Microlight pilots are not licensed under JAA or ICAO. Thus only National Licenses exist for Microlight Pilots. For that reason, many European countries accept National Microlight Pilots from the UK without prior permission and the UK recriprocates.
The holder of a valid NPPL SSEA rating can fly Microlight aircraft provided differences training has been completed and signed off by an instructor. This means that there is no need for a pilot who keeps a valid SSEA rating to obtain a microlight rating to fly microlights.
Overall, the biggest difficulty that other countries have with the NPPL is the medical standard. If you can drive a private car you are fit to fly solo or with another qualified pilot as the passenger. How many private cars are driven by people with poor eyesight? For these countries, to use an NPPL even with a microlight rating requires the pilot to at least hold an ICAO standard medical (JAA class 2).
So I expect that it is easy to apply for an obtain permission to fly a UK C172 round Europe if not the world on an NPPL provided one has a JAA Class 2 medical!
Regards,
DFC
For ATS regional reasons, the Channel Islands lie within the Brest FIR. As independent States, the CI decide what and who can fly in their airspace and what regulations pertain including what class of Airspace. These details are published in the French AIP and by agreement the UK AIP.
The Manager at Guernsey was perfectly correct to say that holding an IMC rating removes the requirement for 10K visibility when on a special VFR clearance. However, that applies world wide provided local regulations are not more restrictive.
When it comes to flying a UK aircraft abroad, there are two issues.
1. The aircraft must have a valid and appropriate ICAO C of A. If it only has a permit to fly then prior permission of the non-UK state is required. Some countries within Europe have given automatic right of access to certain UK permit to fly aircraft and the UK recriprocates.
2. The pilot must hold a valid ICAO standard licence. National licenses and Ratings may be accepted if an application is made (has anyone applied to visit France on an NPPL in a C172?) and approved. Microlight pilots are not licensed under JAA or ICAO. Thus only National Licenses exist for Microlight Pilots. For that reason, many European countries accept National Microlight Pilots from the UK without prior permission and the UK recriprocates.
The holder of a valid NPPL SSEA rating can fly Microlight aircraft provided differences training has been completed and signed off by an instructor. This means that there is no need for a pilot who keeps a valid SSEA rating to obtain a microlight rating to fly microlights.
Overall, the biggest difficulty that other countries have with the NPPL is the medical standard. If you can drive a private car you are fit to fly solo or with another qualified pilot as the passenger. How many private cars are driven by people with poor eyesight? For these countries, to use an NPPL even with a microlight rating requires the pilot to at least hold an ICAO standard medical (JAA class 2).
So I expect that it is easy to apply for an obtain permission to fly a UK C172 round Europe if not the world on an NPPL provided one has a JAA Class 2 medical!
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montsegur
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some months ago, somebody here who sort-of pretended to know so much he sounded like he worked for the CAA ("cathar"?) stated that the CI are always UK airspace,
I think that there are two different issues which can become confused.
Article 1 to the Chicago Convention states that "The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory" Article 2 to the Convention states that "For the purposes of this Convention the territory of a State shall be deemed to be the land areas and territorial waters adjacent thereto under the sovereignty, suzerainty, protection or mandate of such State."
The Channel Islands are covered by the UK's ratification of the Convention as they are dependencies of the UK. The airspace above the Channel Islands is therefore always UK territorial airspace and all relevant UK/Channel Islands legislation will apply. In the case of pilots licences this will be either the Air Navigation (Jersey) Order or the Air Navigation (Guernsey) Order. Without checking the Orders I believe that they would only permit the use of the NPPL in the CI airspace with the approval of the relevant authorities in the islands' governments. It is my understanding that they are unwilling to give that approval.
The provision of air traffic services in Channel Islands airspace is another matter and the subject of international agreements. The fact that France may provide the ATC service in Channel Islands airspace at certain times of day does not make this French territorial airspace. It will still be Guernsey/Jersey ANO and not any French legislation which will govern whether the NPPL can be used. Nor will French legislation on pilots licences (other than for French aircraft) apply in any international airspace for which they provide an ATC service.
Cathar - that's as I see it as well. Perhaps the fact that the Isle of Man now permits the NPPL to be used in its airspace might be of relevance to the Channel Islands authorities?
Hopefully in Brave New Easaland, we'll eventually have a pan-European NPPL with pan-European night and IMC ratings available to those with the relevant medical standards?
Hopefully in Brave New Easaland, we'll eventually have a pan-European NPPL with pan-European night and IMC ratings available to those with the relevant medical standards?
Hopefully in Brave New Easaland, we'll eventually have a pan-European NPPL with pan-European night and IMC ratings available to those with the relevant medical standards?
What we can hope for is an IR that is more practical to obtain for the PPL, though don't expect any change from 40 hours training. One of the key issues is going to be making sure that the IR can be added to the RPPL, even if that comes with some restrictions. The safety case needs to be put to EASA sooner rather than later.
