flying under CBs is OK
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talking on a mobile phone while driving can be proven, hence it is illegal! i have bene pulled over driving eating a sandwitch, but he thought it was a phone! when he discovered i was eating instead of talking, he went his own way and never booked me!
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English Al, the exemptions for glider pilots from IMC or IR ratings, and for gliders re CofA etc., are in the legislation.
As I have posted elsewhere in the past, re GA collision with gliders:
I doubt if anyone has the statistics. For what it's worth, my information on UK gliding collisions, and much less reading on power in the UK, led me to post this on a gliding web site, after an ATPL recently come here, and doing some gliding too, asked about collision risks in cloud:
13.9.04 to uras:
". . . gliders that cloud fly normally call out on 130.4. It is not a legal requirement, but most conform. Power pilots could listen out on that, but I believe most don't. That is their choice.
Power in IFR in class G is taking that risk. They also take the risk of colliding with each other - there is no one frequency that all power without exception will be using in class G IMC, and there may be some non-radio power anyway (just as some cloud-flying gliders may be non-radio). That's how things developed here, and there is no significant accident rate from these causes - unlike VMC/VFR where there are more frequent collisions between G/G, G/P and P/P.
Take care out there - especially in VMC. Based on actual collisions, the most likely place for a collision when glider flying is in VMC close to a gliding club - with other gliders, tugs, or cables. The next is in VMC on a cross country, with other gliders. After that, with other gliders in cloud. The least likely is with a power plane not connected with gliding. I know of none with power in cloud.
The most frequent collisions for power planes are with the ground, in IMC. I understand that there are usually several every year in the UK. The next most frequent (excluding tugs) is with other power planes. Tugs can and have collided with gliders at the gliding site they are based at - in VMC. The least frequent power collision is with a glider on a cross country - only one that I know of since 1970; that was in VMC when the power plane went straight into the back of a glider, neither front seat person having seen it in front of them. (A Rockwell Commander/Cirrus, IIRC.) "
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I would be interested to know if there are data available re power/power collisions in the UK . Short of analysing all the AAIB reports for it, and reading the details to get class of airspace, and recategorising the older ones to equate to current classes, I would not know where to start.
Chris N.
As I have posted elsewhere in the past, re GA collision with gliders:
I doubt if anyone has the statistics. For what it's worth, my information on UK gliding collisions, and much less reading on power in the UK, led me to post this on a gliding web site, after an ATPL recently come here, and doing some gliding too, asked about collision risks in cloud:
13.9.04 to uras:
". . . gliders that cloud fly normally call out on 130.4. It is not a legal requirement, but most conform. Power pilots could listen out on that, but I believe most don't. That is their choice.
Power in IFR in class G is taking that risk. They also take the risk of colliding with each other - there is no one frequency that all power without exception will be using in class G IMC, and there may be some non-radio power anyway (just as some cloud-flying gliders may be non-radio). That's how things developed here, and there is no significant accident rate from these causes - unlike VMC/VFR where there are more frequent collisions between G/G, G/P and P/P.
Take care out there - especially in VMC. Based on actual collisions, the most likely place for a collision when glider flying is in VMC close to a gliding club - with other gliders, tugs, or cables. The next is in VMC on a cross country, with other gliders. After that, with other gliders in cloud. The least likely is with a power plane not connected with gliding. I know of none with power in cloud.
The most frequent collisions for power planes are with the ground, in IMC. I understand that there are usually several every year in the UK. The next most frequent (excluding tugs) is with other power planes. Tugs can and have collided with gliders at the gliding site they are based at - in VMC. The least frequent power collision is with a glider on a cross country - only one that I know of since 1970; that was in VMC when the power plane went straight into the back of a glider, neither front seat person having seen it in front of them. (A Rockwell Commander/Cirrus, IIRC.) "
- - - - - - - - -
I would be interested to know if there are data available re power/power collisions in the UK . Short of analysing all the AAIB reports for it, and reading the details to get class of airspace, and recategorising the older ones to equate to current classes, I would not know where to start.
Chris N.
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It was no so much the risk of collision I was noting but why a perfectly good permit aircraft with suitable avionics are not allowed in cloud in IMC in class G, yet gliders with minimal instrumentation and / or qualifications are...?
cheers
cheers
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Al, sorry, but I don't know! I believe that the gliding exemptions dated back to before there was any legislation, and the CAA (or Board of Trade or whatever) saw no case for covering them with legislation when powered aircraft became controlled. As far as gliders were concerned, it was legislation with a light hand, nothing was broke, so they didn't fix it.
I don't know if "perfectly good permit aircraft with suitable avionics" existed when the legislation came in - I suspect not. Meanwhile, however, the powered world suffered considerably from CFIT, and other accidents from loss of control, from its early days, in VMC and IMC, and I guess controls were put in reflecting that. PFA types got swept into it later by default, perhaps.
It seems to me that it remains true that much greater numbers/proportions of powered a/c get into trouble in IMC than gliders, whether measured as per flight, per hour, per pilot, per flying unit or anything else (my subjective impression based on many power a/c CFIT - and unCFIT - accidents and almost no gliding ones of that type).
Behind the lack of gliding accidents of that type, I am aware of one factor at least which might explain (partly?) the different accident rates. Old fashioned gliders were draggy, and since WW2 have mostly if not all had speed limiting brakes. Loss of control in IMC can then be countered by opening the brakes, sitting back, and waiting for clear air to appear; then recovery is relatively easy. Gliders are rarely flying when cloud base is close to the ground.
Modern gliders are not draggy and don't have speed limiting brakes mostly, so are rarely flown in cloud. Few "modern" pilots have had the advantage of "old" gliders to learn cloud flying on, so it is less practised than it used to be. Old fogeys like me who learnt the old way are declining in numbers.
Chris N.
==========================
I don't know if "perfectly good permit aircraft with suitable avionics" existed when the legislation came in - I suspect not. Meanwhile, however, the powered world suffered considerably from CFIT, and other accidents from loss of control, from its early days, in VMC and IMC, and I guess controls were put in reflecting that. PFA types got swept into it later by default, perhaps.
It seems to me that it remains true that much greater numbers/proportions of powered a/c get into trouble in IMC than gliders, whether measured as per flight, per hour, per pilot, per flying unit or anything else (my subjective impression based on many power a/c CFIT - and unCFIT - accidents and almost no gliding ones of that type).
Behind the lack of gliding accidents of that type, I am aware of one factor at least which might explain (partly?) the different accident rates. Old fashioned gliders were draggy, and since WW2 have mostly if not all had speed limiting brakes. Loss of control in IMC can then be countered by opening the brakes, sitting back, and waiting for clear air to appear; then recovery is relatively easy. Gliders are rarely flying when cloud base is close to the ground.
Modern gliders are not draggy and don't have speed limiting brakes mostly, so are rarely flown in cloud. Few "modern" pilots have had the advantage of "old" gliders to learn cloud flying on, so it is less practised than it used to be. Old fogeys like me who learnt the old way are declining in numbers.
Chris N.
==========================
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english al and others,
I do wish you wouldn't keep on about "gliders with minimal instrumentation and pilots with minimal qualifications".
the instrumentation will be as good or better than in your Spam Can and the certification of the pilot will be different not less than yours. A keen glider pilot will quite likely do 10 or more hours in a suitable weekend so he probably has more experience than you unless someone pays you to fly. Anyway, glider pilots are better than power pilots so there!!!
Mike W
I do wish you wouldn't keep on about "gliders with minimal instrumentation and pilots with minimal qualifications".
the instrumentation will be as good or better than in your Spam Can and the certification of the pilot will be different not less than yours. A keen glider pilot will quite likely do 10 or more hours in a suitable weekend so he probably has more experience than you unless someone pays you to fly. Anyway, glider pilots are better than power pilots so there!!!
Mike W
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Its amazing how sensitive some people are 
I was just curious as to why the CAA deem that the average "spam can" requires FM immune nav equipment and pilots with at least an IMC rating to go flying "out of sight of the surface" where as gliders seem to be allowed to pop in and out of IMC willy nilly. Same sky after all.
No offence meant, I am just curious. Also from a self preservation point of view. I've had, when flying IFR, on an IFR flight plan, in IMC with a RIS and the controller tells me "multiple targets along your route of flight, no height information, could be gliders" what do I do, do I expect to meet one in there or not? I always assumed gliders were restricted to VMC and hence I was safe, but now I know I'm not
Glider pilots may be better "stick and rudder" pilots than your average PPL, but they need a Powered plane or elastic band to get them up in the first place
I was just curious as to why the CAA deem that the average "spam can" requires FM immune nav equipment and pilots with at least an IMC rating to go flying "out of sight of the surface" where as gliders seem to be allowed to pop in and out of IMC willy nilly. Same sky after all.
No offence meant, I am just curious. Also from a self preservation point of view. I've had, when flying IFR, on an IFR flight plan, in IMC with a RIS and the controller tells me "multiple targets along your route of flight, no height information, could be gliders" what do I do, do I expect to meet one in there or not? I always assumed gliders were restricted to VMC and hence I was safe, but now I know I'm not
Glider pilots may be better "stick and rudder" pilots than your average PPL, but they need a Powered plane or elastic band to get them up in the first place
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Al,
Not sensitive at all. just pointing out that you are regurgitating a comment you have made before which indicates a lack of understanding of the conditions and rules under which you and others fly. You didn't know that clouds could have gliders in them? That's a very dangerous lack of knowledge? If the controller says his targets are "probably gliders" the chances are that you are routing through a gliding site. Powered aircraft operate non radio non txpdr too you know.
In fact, if you are flying IFR one assumes it is because you are in solid clag and you are not normally going to find gliders about in that. Gliders will usually be inside clouds which are "Freestanding" Cu in an otherwise clear sky in which case you do not need to fly through the cloud at all. You are just going to be thrown around all over the place and make yourself sick.
I suggest that. if you are worried, give a call on 130.4 and ask if anyone is in cloud near englishal. (I know its illegal but I'm not going to snitch on you). If you get no reply go into the cloud and anything you hit will have an engine.
Chris Ns post has more information much more eloquently put than I could have done.
Mike W
Not sensitive at all. just pointing out that you are regurgitating a comment you have made before which indicates a lack of understanding of the conditions and rules under which you and others fly. You didn't know that clouds could have gliders in them? That's a very dangerous lack of knowledge? If the controller says his targets are "probably gliders" the chances are that you are routing through a gliding site. Powered aircraft operate non radio non txpdr too you know.
In fact, if you are flying IFR one assumes it is because you are in solid clag and you are not normally going to find gliders about in that. Gliders will usually be inside clouds which are "Freestanding" Cu in an otherwise clear sky in which case you do not need to fly through the cloud at all. You are just going to be thrown around all over the place and make yourself sick.
I suggest that. if you are worried, give a call on 130.4 and ask if anyone is in cloud near englishal. (I know its illegal but I'm not going to snitch on you). If you get no reply go into the cloud and anything you hit will have an engine.
Chris Ns post has more information much more eloquently put than I could have done.
Mike W
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englishal wrote:
"Also from a self preservation point of view. I've had, when flying IFR, on an IFR flight plan, in IMC with a RIS and the controller tells me "multiple targets along your route of flight, no height information, could be gliders" what do I do, do I expect to meet one in there or not? I always assumed gliders were restricted to VMC and hence I was safe, but now I know I'm not"
If you're in controlled airspace, there should be no gliders taking cloud climbs.
Outside controlled airspace, there might be a glider climbing (or in my case, more likely undertaking forced practice in "recovery from unusual attitudes") in isolated cumulus. I think your biggest risk of meeting such a glider would be flying through a series of these clouds - but is this what power pilots do? I would have thought the constant transition from VMC to IMC and back would be tiring and disorientating, and it would be more pleasant to fly round. Only asking, because I don't know.
So far as I can discover there have been no collisions between powered aircraft and gliders in cloud, and gliders have been cloud flying in the UK since the 1930s. The risk seems pretty low. I'd say you're at greatest risk from gliders if you do what at least one pilot most weekends does by overflying our winch launch site at 1500 ft, as we're regularly chucking 3000ft of wire into the air with a glider on the end of it! So far we've seen them all in time ...
I think the handful of glider/glider collisions in cloud have all been in major competitions when the competitive instinct takes over from self-preservation by obeying the rules (which are essentially not to enter until the preceding glider reports on 130.4 that he's 500 ft above cloudbase). I wouldn't fly in the same cloud as another glider, and if I'm attempting a cloud climb you'll hear me yelling out my height and position at regular intervals on 130.4 to keep other gliders away.
And on the topic of flying under Cbs, readers might have missed the fact that a few years ago a glider from Dunstable was flying 2 miles or more to the *side* of a Cb when a lightning strike blew the wings apart. Fortunately both pilots parachuted to safety.
I won\'t even fly *near* a Cb, let alone under one.
"Also from a self preservation point of view. I've had, when flying IFR, on an IFR flight plan, in IMC with a RIS and the controller tells me "multiple targets along your route of flight, no height information, could be gliders" what do I do, do I expect to meet one in there or not? I always assumed gliders were restricted to VMC and hence I was safe, but now I know I'm not"
If you're in controlled airspace, there should be no gliders taking cloud climbs.
Outside controlled airspace, there might be a glider climbing (or in my case, more likely undertaking forced practice in "recovery from unusual attitudes") in isolated cumulus. I think your biggest risk of meeting such a glider would be flying through a series of these clouds - but is this what power pilots do? I would have thought the constant transition from VMC to IMC and back would be tiring and disorientating, and it would be more pleasant to fly round. Only asking, because I don't know.
So far as I can discover there have been no collisions between powered aircraft and gliders in cloud, and gliders have been cloud flying in the UK since the 1930s. The risk seems pretty low. I'd say you're at greatest risk from gliders if you do what at least one pilot most weekends does by overflying our winch launch site at 1500 ft, as we're regularly chucking 3000ft of wire into the air with a glider on the end of it! So far we've seen them all in time ...
I think the handful of glider/glider collisions in cloud have all been in major competitions when the competitive instinct takes over from self-preservation by obeying the rules (which are essentially not to enter until the preceding glider reports on 130.4 that he's 500 ft above cloudbase). I wouldn't fly in the same cloud as another glider, and if I'm attempting a cloud climb you'll hear me yelling out my height and position at regular intervals on 130.4 to keep other gliders away.
And on the topic of flying under Cbs, readers might have missed the fact that a few years ago a glider from Dunstable was flying 2 miles or more to the *side* of a Cb when a lightning strike blew the wings apart. Fortunately both pilots parachuted to safety.
I won\'t even fly *near* a Cb, let alone under one.
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Thanks Prof. That is the killer argument You would normally only be IFR in controlled airspace and . Gliders do not fly in controlled airspace. Not strictly 100% true of course, but in that case they too, are controlled. If you have to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace then all sensible Glider Pilots will probably be in the bar.
Mike W
Edit: Just thought I would help out. I'm feeling good today
PPP
Mike W
Edit: Just thought I would help out. I'm feeling good today
PPP
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If the controller says his targets are "probably gliders" the chances are that you are routing through a gliding site. Powered aircraft operate non radio non txpdr too you know.
You are right of course, I really didn't know gliders could fly in IMC legally, and thats because a) I wasn't aware and b) I assumed that they were not allowed due to restrictions with other types. With powered a/c it is very unlikely to find a non radio, non txpdr aircraft in the cloud.....Permit aircraft are limited to day VFR.
Anyway, thanks for the info, I think I may have a go at a spot of gliding, one of my mates (in Norway) is a pilot as well as a glider pilot and he reckons he'd rather be gliding any day.....and we just happen to have a club 5 miles away
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englishal,
Yes, give gliding a try. It really is "better" than power in many circumstances. If you fly to get from point A to point B then power is the thing but if you fly to FLY or to look at the scenery, or to escape the Wife/kids/MIL or, even, just to prove you can, then gliding is the thing. It is a much more social event as well. You need the help of others to get you into the air but once there then it is all up to you. You will never meet a more resourceful bunch of people than a gliding club. If you want something invented / made / modified / mended, ask at your Gliding club. there's bound to be someone there who can do the job.
Final point, Gliding is cheaper.(if you don't count the time involved)
Mike W
Yes, give gliding a try. It really is "better" than power in many circumstances. If you fly to get from point A to point B then power is the thing but if you fly to FLY or to look at the scenery, or to escape the Wife/kids/MIL or, even, just to prove you can, then gliding is the thing. It is a much more social event as well. You need the help of others to get you into the air but once there then it is all up to you. You will never meet a more resourceful bunch of people than a gliding club. If you want something invented / made / modified / mended, ask at your Gliding club. there's bound to be someone there who can do the job.
Final point, Gliding is cheaper.(if you don't count the time involved)
Mike W
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Skylark 4 is right up to a point.
Gliding is cheap, until you buy your own aircraft.
And if you like it, you *will* buy your own glider, 'cause this is the only way to guarantee you unlimited access to the few really good days when you are able to fly!
Gliding is cheap, until you buy your own aircraft.
And if you like it, you *will* buy your own glider, 'cause this is the only way to guarantee you unlimited access to the few really good days when you are able to fly!
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I've never even tried gliding, but I know a few that have done a lot of it, and they did say that you do get to know the other people rather well - because you spend most of the day waiting to go up!
If that's true then the sport would appeal to a limited range of people. Mainly those with plenty of time, or keen to get away from somebody...
If that's true then the sport would appeal to a limited range of people. Mainly those with plenty of time, or keen to get away from somebody...
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Interesting point about Gliders cloud flying.
Since most glider pilots can get away without having an R/T licence provided they stick to the dedicated glider frequencies does this not cause a reduction in flight safety by discouraging glider pilots who intend flying in cloud from obtaining a service from an appropriate ATS unit that will perhaps also be providing a service to a powered IFR aircraft in the vicinity.
After all, if a glider anounces it's intentions to climb up through a Cu at position xxxx, then if a powered aircraft talking to the same ats unit is made aware of that fact then that powered aircraft can be given the best oportunioty to comply with the rules of the air (power give way to glider) by avoiding that position/ height band.
The option of an IFR enroute powered flight calling up on 130.4 is simply not sensible in most cases.........why leave the frequency providing radar information or advice to a frequency where no service is available. Would the "advice" for glider pilots to legally call up on the local ats frequency and let everyone know not be a better option?
Regards,
DFC
Since most glider pilots can get away without having an R/T licence provided they stick to the dedicated glider frequencies does this not cause a reduction in flight safety by discouraging glider pilots who intend flying in cloud from obtaining a service from an appropriate ATS unit that will perhaps also be providing a service to a powered IFR aircraft in the vicinity.
After all, if a glider anounces it's intentions to climb up through a Cu at position xxxx, then if a powered aircraft talking to the same ats unit is made aware of that fact then that powered aircraft can be given the best oportunioty to comply with the rules of the air (power give way to glider) by avoiding that position/ height band.
The option of an IFR enroute powered flight calling up on 130.4 is simply not sensible in most cases.........why leave the frequency providing radar information or advice to a frequency where no service is available. Would the "advice" for glider pilots to legally call up on the local ats frequency and let everyone know not be a better option?
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
I have a fealing that radios to be used by glider pilots without R/T licences are preset to the gliding freqs. Don't know if they need a radio licence for the glider but they certainly would if they carried a transiever (even a mobile) that works on "normal" freqs, at least that's what the iCom guy told me at the PFA do on Saturday.
I have a fealing that radios to be used by glider pilots without R/T licences are preset to the gliding freqs. Don't know if they need a radio licence for the glider but they certainly would if they carried a transiever (even a mobile) that works on "normal" freqs, at least that's what the iCom guy told me at the PFA do on Saturday.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Back in the Kimberley I used to see bases of smallish TSs at about 8000'. Didn't have to fly under them as they are isolated.
As the wet season progressed, the bases would lower to about 500' or less. These were quite well developed CBs with a height often above 50,000'.
I have flown under a cell that had a base of 3000'. Our LSALT was 2000' and we were in IMC. Fortunately it was a soft cell and was more or less dissipating by this stage. Some occassional sparks but lots and lots of water. So much rain that the alternator belt was slipping and causing gen fail lights to illuminate. Not nice. Not too much turbulence which was good.
In Europe the is a risk of hail pouring out of the base of the cell. You don't want to be in that I can tell you.
It does take a while to work out what cells are "ok" and which ones to avoid like the plague. I am talking about flying near them, as opposed to under or through them.
For more info, I recommend highly Archie Trammel's book/video on the weather radar. Even if you don't have a wx radar on board, the info about cell interpretation is invaluable.
As the wet season progressed, the bases would lower to about 500' or less. These were quite well developed CBs with a height often above 50,000'.
I have flown under a cell that had a base of 3000'. Our LSALT was 2000' and we were in IMC. Fortunately it was a soft cell and was more or less dissipating by this stage. Some occassional sparks but lots and lots of water. So much rain that the alternator belt was slipping and causing gen fail lights to illuminate. Not nice. Not too much turbulence which was good.
In Europe the is a risk of hail pouring out of the base of the cell. You don't want to be in that I can tell you.
It does take a while to work out what cells are "ok" and which ones to avoid like the plague. I am talking about flying near them, as opposed to under or through them.
For more info, I recommend highly Archie Trammel's book/video on the weather radar. Even if you don't have a wx radar on board, the info about cell interpretation is invaluable.
