Cpl Or Ppl Holder Pic???
Join Date: Feb 2002
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I think bookworms point is that there is no legal requirement for the captains name to be stated in the tech log. Hence stating it, is not conclusive, and only an indication.
In any case, it makes little or no difference. Plans change and circumstances change.
Lets take a simple situation where two pilots go flying together. One if day VFR rated only, and the other if instrument rated.
They agree that this leg is going to be the VFR guys leg, and he records this in the tech log. Half way through the flight, the conditions start to deteriorate, and the VFR pilot, being the safe and conscientious pilot he is, decides to divert to an airfield en route rather than continue to their actual destination.
The IR pilot offers to take over as P1, and continue the flight under instrument rules, so as to save them having to divert, and so that they can make their final destination. This is agreed.
Are you seriously suggesting that because the VFR pilots name was entered in the tech log at the start of the flight, that he remains P1 even though the flight is now being conducted under IFR, in IMC, and even though both pilots have agreed the change in commander?
In any case, it makes little or no difference. Plans change and circumstances change.
Lets take a simple situation where two pilots go flying together. One if day VFR rated only, and the other if instrument rated.
They agree that this leg is going to be the VFR guys leg, and he records this in the tech log. Half way through the flight, the conditions start to deteriorate, and the VFR pilot, being the safe and conscientious pilot he is, decides to divert to an airfield en route rather than continue to their actual destination.
The IR pilot offers to take over as P1, and continue the flight under instrument rules, so as to save them having to divert, and so that they can make their final destination. This is agreed.
Are you seriously suggesting that because the VFR pilots name was entered in the tech log at the start of the flight, that he remains P1 even though the flight is now being conducted under IFR, in IMC, and even though both pilots have agreed the change in commander?
I think bookworms point is that there is no legal requirement for the captains name to be stated in the tech log. Hence stating it, is not conclusive, and only an indication.
That said, the ANO seems to quite explicitly allow for switches of commander.
‘Commander’ in relation to an aircraft means the member of the flight crew designated as commander of that aircraft by the operator thereof, or, failing such a person, the person who is for the time being the pilot in command of the aircraft;
‘Pilot in command’ in relation to an aircraft means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of the aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft;
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Of course you can switch commander half way through a leg or indeed back and forth every thirty seconds if that is the wish of the two of you. The only thing that matters is agreement between the two of you - it doesn't have to be in advance, other then momentarily.
When I was doing my IR training in the US we would sometimes do an 'air-switch', which involved the pilot in the left hand seat climbing in to the back and the pilot in the back climbing forward in to the left seat. This was done typically after a missed approach at one airport in the middle of a long leg en-route to another one. It was a bit of a palaver what with headsets, hoods, oxygen and all, but it worked and the instructor actually got to touch the controls for a few minutes.
When I was doing my IR training in the US we would sometimes do an 'air-switch', which involved the pilot in the left hand seat climbing in to the back and the pilot in the back climbing forward in to the left seat. This was done typically after a missed approach at one airport in the middle of a long leg en-route to another one. It was a bit of a palaver what with headsets, hoods, oxygen and all, but it worked and the instructor actually got to touch the controls for a few minutes.
Join Date: May 2001
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Of course you can......and no signatures are required.
I've flown many times with un IR'd pilots, and when entering IMC and becoming IFR, I magically put on the PIC hat. Of course judging by some of the reasoning on here, we'd have had to make an emergency landing, phone the CAA, sign form AXTDYGDY123 in triplicate, fax it off to the CAA, get a response, fax the insurance company, swap seats, sign the tech log, then notify Brussels 24 hours in advance of the PIC swap....blah blah....
(am I getting carried away? 
)
Maybe "Common sense" should be included in the PPL written exams?
I've flown many times with un IR'd pilots, and when entering IMC and becoming IFR, I magically put on the PIC hat. Of course judging by some of the reasoning on here, we'd have had to make an emergency landing, phone the CAA, sign form AXTDYGDY123 in triplicate, fax it off to the CAA, get a response, fax the insurance company, swap seats, sign the tech log, then notify Brussels 24 hours in advance of the PIC swap....blah blah....
(am I getting carried away? )Maybe "Common sense" should be included in the PPL written exams?
When I was doing my IR training in the US we would sometimes do an 'air-switch'
I have to say that although I can't see any legal reason why you cannot change commander during flight, I think it could lead to some difficult CRM. I'd much prefer to see a commander designated pre-flight to avoid any issues over how, exactly, the job is transferred at a potentially difficult time.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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There is no problem swapping commanders in the air, we do it all the time. I say "I am going to snooze do you want to fly an hour, my mate says yes I have control, I say you have control" the P1 is swapped by agreement and I have a snooze!
Not rocket science and not difficult!!! No need to land and fill in paperwork.
If there is a problem the P1 deals with it. If he needs help he asks for it. Simple.
Not rocket science and not difficult!!! No need to land and fill in paperwork.
If there is a problem the P1 deals with it. If he needs help he asks for it. Simple.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Too right Mr Bose, lot of fuss over something simple.
I have had the same situation as EA when flying back into the LA basin at night with a mate who (at the time but not now
) didnt have an IR. The whole basin has a tendency to fill up with cloud (the marine layer). I put the magic PIC hat on as well (or the PIC hoodie for the yoof of today heehee) and flew the approach.
No paperwork, no phonecalls, no tech log signoff, just a clear understanding of who was PIC of the aircraft for that leg/portion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the journey. Whenever I fly with another pilot he/she handles the radios and the nav, I do the flying and the nav aids and likewise if we swap over.
Julian.
I have had the same situation as EA when flying back into the LA basin at night with a mate who (at the time but not now
) didnt have an IR. The whole basin has a tendency to fill up with cloud (the marine layer). I put the magic PIC hat on as well (or the PIC hoodie for the yoof of today heehee) and flew the approach. No paperwork, no phonecalls, no tech log signoff, just a clear understanding of who was PIC of the aircraft for that leg/portion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the journey. Whenever I fly with another pilot he/she handles the radios and the nav, I do the flying and the nav aids and likewise if we swap over.
Julian.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Now that my friend (yes, I have only the one) has his NPPL we were planning to do some of this, but... how does one go about getting used to flying from the RH seat? Is it a big deal? I guess I should just ask an instructor to do some with me... I'm the more experienced pilot so I was going to volunteer for this seat, though perhaps he should, as I'm the only IMC-rated one and I don't fancy IFR in the wrong seat!
Tim
Tim
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It is very easy.
I got in the RHS looked out the window and flew.
I also have never had a problem doing instrument flight from the RHS or flying a procedure. With a bit of practice you get used to correcting for paralax error.
Just go flying with your mate and swap P1 in the air and try it.
I got in the RHS looked out the window and flew.
I also have never had a problem doing instrument flight from the RHS or flying a procedure. With a bit of practice you get used to correcting for paralax error.
Just go flying with your mate and swap P1 in the air and try it.
