Flight Acadamy Scotland
Join Date: May 2003
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I don't think 50hrs for a PPL is struggling. I've not been in any particular rush, plus I had a month of over xmas. I just been enjoying my training, not trying to get it done as fast as possible.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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I've worked at a few flying schools and airfields in Scotland and will give a couple of pieces of unbiased advice.
Firstly, I'll reinforce what has been said about paying up front for flying training. Don't. Too many schools have gone down the toilet with little or no warning, taking your cash with them. I know, I worked for one...
Also, although EDI is great for learning punchy RT and mixing it with the big boys, don't underestimate the extra cash you'll spend transiting to Glenrothes to do circuit trips. There's no substitute for training at an airfield into whose own circuit you can launch for training when the weather would otherwise preclude any flying away from the airfield. I worked at EDI in my first instructing job and had to detach to Cumbernauld for circuits, adding at least 30 mins of transit time to the student's bill for each trip.
On the other hand, I have worked for a couple of schools at Cumbernauld, and students benefit from no delays, uncontrolled airspace, and the reponsibility and decision-making that comes with flying in an air-ground radio environment. In order to expose students to controlled airspace and wake-vortex separation I took them to Prestwick so that they could mix it with 747s.
I don't agree with the narrow-runway at Cumbernauld comment. If the student can hack landing safely on a narrow runway then they will be a better pilot. Same goes for the 18m wide runway at Glenrothes. It doesn't affect the crosswind limit for the student or the aeroplane.
As regards training progress, I completed an RAF flying scholarship and PPL at Dundee in March in a total of 4 weeks (a long time ago...). That included 9 non-flying days due to weather. I did fly 5 trips in one day sometimes; started on Monday, went solo on Saturday! Don't recommend it for fun ppl training though...
ST
Firstly, I'll reinforce what has been said about paying up front for flying training. Don't. Too many schools have gone down the toilet with little or no warning, taking your cash with them. I know, I worked for one...
Also, although EDI is great for learning punchy RT and mixing it with the big boys, don't underestimate the extra cash you'll spend transiting to Glenrothes to do circuit trips. There's no substitute for training at an airfield into whose own circuit you can launch for training when the weather would otherwise preclude any flying away from the airfield. I worked at EDI in my first instructing job and had to detach to Cumbernauld for circuits, adding at least 30 mins of transit time to the student's bill for each trip.
On the other hand, I have worked for a couple of schools at Cumbernauld, and students benefit from no delays, uncontrolled airspace, and the reponsibility and decision-making that comes with flying in an air-ground radio environment. In order to expose students to controlled airspace and wake-vortex separation I took them to Prestwick so that they could mix it with 747s.
I don't agree with the narrow-runway at Cumbernauld comment. If the student can hack landing safely on a narrow runway then they will be a better pilot. Same goes for the 18m wide runway at Glenrothes. It doesn't affect the crosswind limit for the student or the aeroplane.
As regards training progress, I completed an RAF flying scholarship and PPL at Dundee in March in a total of 4 weeks (a long time ago...). That included 9 non-flying days due to weather. I did fly 5 trips in one day sometimes; started on Monday, went solo on Saturday! Don't recommend it for fun ppl training though...
ST
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Flight Acadamy Scotland
Firstly this is NOT a dig at FAS, but some information.
Recent news article in Daily Mail details how FAS set up a bogus Official Cumbernauld Airfield Web Page and following some testing, gave their own school 10/10 and the other schools 2/10. FAS was forced to admit that the web-site was theirs and NOT Cumbernauld's. Some physical stuff between other school owners too I've heard.
FAS has bought Inverness Flying School - no aircraft or instructors, although they do advertise rotary wing training. Not being a whirly bird myself, I don't know if they have helo's or instructors at Inverness.
Trying to buy Aberdeen Flying School - their web site states they have already bought it, but a friend of mine went into the school recently and asked for one of their £75 gift vouchers - Aberdeen didn't know anything about it!
That's what I understand - but lets not take my word for it, and ask FAS to comment themselves..... If anyone from FAS manages to read this, and in order to provide a balanced discussion, please feel free to contribute to this thread.
Recent news article in Daily Mail details how FAS set up a bogus Official Cumbernauld Airfield Web Page and following some testing, gave their own school 10/10 and the other schools 2/10. FAS was forced to admit that the web-site was theirs and NOT Cumbernauld's. Some physical stuff between other school owners too I've heard.
FAS has bought Inverness Flying School - no aircraft or instructors, although they do advertise rotary wing training. Not being a whirly bird myself, I don't know if they have helo's or instructors at Inverness.
Trying to buy Aberdeen Flying School - their web site states they have already bought it, but a friend of mine went into the school recently and asked for one of their £75 gift vouchers - Aberdeen didn't know anything about it!
That's what I understand - but lets not take my word for it, and ask FAS to comment themselves..... If anyone from FAS manages to read this, and in order to provide a balanced discussion, please feel free to contribute to this thread.
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Warrior,
Just a couple of points:
FAS have not bought Inverness flying school, they have set up a flying base there but as yet have not done any flights. They bought Highland Helicopters and currently own one R22 which they fly out of there with a heli instructor. They have as far as Iam led to believe there are a couple of Katana's up there but no instructors to fly them!!
There is another thread on 'Professional Pilot Training' with regards to the Daily Mail article. They have requested a reply from someone within FAS, but as yet, none have been forthcoming.
I gather that all staff from FAS have been told to keep away from this site and not to post any comments/ replies etc.
The saga continues......
Just a couple of points:
FAS have not bought Inverness flying school, they have set up a flying base there but as yet have not done any flights. They bought Highland Helicopters and currently own one R22 which they fly out of there with a heli instructor. They have as far as Iam led to believe there are a couple of Katana's up there but no instructors to fly them!!
There is another thread on 'Professional Pilot Training' with regards to the Daily Mail article. They have requested a reply from someone within FAS, but as yet, none have been forthcoming.
I gather that all staff from FAS have been told to keep away from this site and not to post any comments/ replies etc.
The saga continues......
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Cumbernauld is a good location to learn flying from scratch. You are in fairly unrestricted airspace but can fly into the Edinburgh or Glasgow zones with your instructor and gradually build your confidence in more complex environments.
As for flying clubs, there is an established school at Cumbernauld - upstairs beside the coffee shop - which my spies tell me is above average. Run by a chap called Ted. I visited it two weeks ago and was quite impressed.
Hope this helps.
As for flying clubs, there is an established school at Cumbernauld - upstairs beside the coffee shop - which my spies tell me is above average. Run by a chap called Ted. I visited it two weeks ago and was quite impressed.
Hope this helps.
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I gather that all staff from FAS have been told to keep away from this site and not to post any comments/ replies etc.
Who knows where they'll try next. They aren't proving popular. As said above they haven't turned a prop at INV yet. Apparently the guys at Aberdeen aren't welcoming them with open arms either. Hard to see where next though. Would think Prestwick and Tayside are out of their league. Not much left.
Incidentally has their twin been fixed yet?
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There are no Katana's in INV there was one plane which never moved until it disappeared.
Staying completely away from the Schools at various places I will make a few comments about the WX in scotland based on 2 years VFR flying up here.
Inverness
Moray Firth has a micro climate which lends its self to good VFR training 15-20 knot winds are not uncommon but it never seemed to bother the students as they didn't know any different and it wasn't uncommon to send students solo in those conditions. Good viz (20k-45k) is the norm you can see Wick from the circuit on CAVOK days.
Perth
Can be good but suffered from low cloud and ****e viz at times microlights can be a right pain in the arse. And weekends in the summer you need your wits about you flying anywhere near the circuit.
Dundee
Suffers from sea fog certain times of year and low cloud.
Fife
Similar to Dundee apart from its in Fife and a bit higher and can get effects coming in from the Forth.
Aberdeen
Can be very windy and sea fog and low cloud are common.
Glasgow
Can't comment never had a big enough wallet to land there.
Edi.
Similar to all the East coast airfields low cloud, sea fog and strong winds which can last for days.
Wick
Can be bloody horrible strong winds low clouds. When it nice it very nice but when its horrible its very bad. Only advantage is that most of the wx only lasts a day or 2 then it changes again.
Prestwick
Similar to the Moray Firth local micro climate can allow you to fly when everywhere else in the region is closed for VFR training.
Cum
WX similar to Perth but with worse viz. Nothing wrong with the runway size or shape.
If your wanting to do a intensive PPL, Inverness is proberly your best bet (July and August is best). All the exams studied for, 3 weeks is do able.
And remember there is nothing stopping you chopping and changing schools. ie up to circuit level in one school while studying for the exams then changing to complete the circuit and x-country lessons. What ever the school says training records are transferable. I have had several "transfers" when getting the records has been some what of a trial, but after the threat of the CAA it all sorted its self out. But after seeing the student records I could see why they didn't want another school looking at them.
MJ
Staying completely away from the Schools at various places I will make a few comments about the WX in scotland based on 2 years VFR flying up here.
Inverness
Moray Firth has a micro climate which lends its self to good VFR training 15-20 knot winds are not uncommon but it never seemed to bother the students as they didn't know any different and it wasn't uncommon to send students solo in those conditions. Good viz (20k-45k) is the norm you can see Wick from the circuit on CAVOK days.
Perth
Can be good but suffered from low cloud and ****e viz at times microlights can be a right pain in the arse. And weekends in the summer you need your wits about you flying anywhere near the circuit.
Dundee
Suffers from sea fog certain times of year and low cloud.
Fife
Similar to Dundee apart from its in Fife and a bit higher and can get effects coming in from the Forth.
Aberdeen
Can be very windy and sea fog and low cloud are common.
Glasgow
Can't comment never had a big enough wallet to land there.
Edi.
Similar to all the East coast airfields low cloud, sea fog and strong winds which can last for days.
Wick
Can be bloody horrible strong winds low clouds. When it nice it very nice but when its horrible its very bad. Only advantage is that most of the wx only lasts a day or 2 then it changes again.
Prestwick
Similar to the Moray Firth local micro climate can allow you to fly when everywhere else in the region is closed for VFR training.
Cum
WX similar to Perth but with worse viz. Nothing wrong with the runway size or shape.
If your wanting to do a intensive PPL, Inverness is proberly your best bet (July and August is best). All the exams studied for, 3 weeks is do able.
And remember there is nothing stopping you chopping and changing schools. ie up to circuit level in one school while studying for the exams then changing to complete the circuit and x-country lessons. What ever the school says training records are transferable. I have had several "transfers" when getting the records has been some what of a trial, but after the threat of the CAA it all sorted its self out. But after seeing the student records I could see why they didn't want another school looking at them.
MJ
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This will be an interesting one then! At 16 pounds you say for a landing ,then the economics just dont work out do they? If the fee increases to 20 pounds then impossible to sustain an operation if those costs have to be absorbed by FAS (unless the costs go up). Presumably the current owners are not selling because the school is doing well!!! Interesting times ahead and could this signal the beginning of the end for PPL training in Aberdeen if they fail with this venture. In the current situation, I guess that not many prople would be queing up to buy a flying school!
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I think that you are right - Aberdeen is going to have problems and the fact that landing fees are going up to £20 is a non-sense. So, for a series of 5 touch and go's the student will pay an extra 80 pounds - almost doubles the cost of the lesson!!! Who can afford that??
So, if you then put on top of that the amount of time that in a lesson you spend orbiting to get back to base that is also unattractive in terms of cost. I am told by friends who have learned to fly in Aberdeen that 15 minutes may be spent orbiting whilst commercial traffic comes in - extra costs+++.
If you look at the runway configuaration in Aberdeen, its north-south and is right across the direction of the prevailing winds - limits the opportunity for flying. On top of that Aberdeen is constantly under the haar isn't it? Who on earth would think that they could make a comercial success out of this package?
The answer - come to Dundee or Perth to avoid all of these things?
So, if you then put on top of that the amount of time that in a lesson you spend orbiting to get back to base that is also unattractive in terms of cost. I am told by friends who have learned to fly in Aberdeen that 15 minutes may be spent orbiting whilst commercial traffic comes in - extra costs+++.
If you look at the runway configuaration in Aberdeen, its north-south and is right across the direction of the prevailing winds - limits the opportunity for flying. On top of that Aberdeen is constantly under the haar isn't it? Who on earth would think that they could make a comercial success out of this package?
The answer - come to Dundee or Perth to avoid all of these things?
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I guess that you are right! It will be a shame to see it go downhill, if that happens. Lets give them a chance but it seems from all the correspondence that the omens are not the best!
Lets see!!
Lets see!!
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Another 2p's worth:
1) DO NOT pay upfront for a PPL - it's not necessary.
2) Tayside don't operate from Perth anymore (since last week). You can find out more about that on the Scottish Aero Club website.
3) There are a few clubs to choose from - I personally would use the closest one unless there's a good reason not to, as lessons WILL be cancelled, delayed, whatever and it's a pain if you've just driven 2 hours to get there.
4) I can vouch for Tayside but I am biased as I worked there and still do the odd bit now and then. What I will say is they're getting some nice aircraft which will be a bit more fun than the current ones .
5) Inverness does look very nice if you want to do an intensive course.
1) DO NOT pay upfront for a PPL - it's not necessary.
2) Tayside don't operate from Perth anymore (since last week). You can find out more about that on the Scottish Aero Club website.
3) There are a few clubs to choose from - I personally would use the closest one unless there's a good reason not to, as lessons WILL be cancelled, delayed, whatever and it's a pain if you've just driven 2 hours to get there.
4) I can vouch for Tayside but I am biased as I worked there and still do the odd bit now and then. What I will say is they're getting some nice aircraft which will be a bit more fun than the current ones
.5) Inverness does look very nice if you want to do an intensive course.
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I agree with DB6, Tayside are a good outfit. The only thing I fault them on is price. They are expensive. Personally I think £120/hour for a 152 is ridiculous. I know that Tayflite are cheaper, just not sure how much. Will be interesting to watch what happens there. Perth is much better for training than Dundee, and if it is now cheaper perhaps Tayside will have some stiff competition.
I rate Highland flying school very highly. As said before the weather is good, pricing is very good and Inverness is a cracking airport/area to fly in.
I rate Highland flying school very highly. As said before the weather is good, pricing is very good and Inverness is a cracking airport/area to fly in.
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I guess that the difficulty from Aberdeen is the 2 hour drive to Inverness or the 1.5 hours to Dundee or Perth? However, there could be an opportunity for these schools to undercut FAS in Aberdeen and take any students down south or North-West!! For reasons mentined earlier this might actually be a better option due to weather and commercial pressures.
Bit of competition might also bring down the prices for all concerned! Have FAS indicated the prices that they are going to charge in Aberdeen yet?
Bit of competition might also bring down the prices for all concerned! Have FAS indicated the prices that they are going to charge in Aberdeen yet?
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Getting the knife into FAS isn't really helping Flynumpty decide which school to get his PPL at.
All the schools will get the job done.
I haven't heard much about the EDI school and no news is good news in flight training as far as i can tell.
If your worried about cost of landing fees maybe EDI isn't for you.
Tayside is quite regimented due to the RAF cadets with pre flight briefs all pre made on overheads safety question for the day etc. Which I quite liked as an instructor. It does cost a bit more than others but then again you get free landings fees at Fife, Dundee and Perth which would proberly off set the cost somewhat. And if you decide to go down that route and later on to do commercial/FI with them its not uncommon to be taken on as an instructor.
If you are planning to do it over weekends, I would go and visit them in Fife and see if you get on with the instructors. Euan if he is still there has a very good reputation. If you want to do it intensively a week at a time or in 3 weeks go to Inverness. The cost for additional travel and hotels will all work itself out to be about the same. The advantage with Inverness is the weather, the local area and the xcountry qualifier INV-WICK-KIRKWALL-INV will be very hard to beat anywhere for pure enjoyment of flying x-country.
MJ
All the schools will get the job done.
I haven't heard much about the EDI school and no news is good news in flight training as far as i can tell.
If your worried about cost of landing fees maybe EDI isn't for you.
Tayside is quite regimented due to the RAF cadets with pre flight briefs all pre made on overheads safety question for the day etc. Which I quite liked as an instructor. It does cost a bit more than others but then again you get free landings fees at Fife, Dundee and Perth which would proberly off set the cost somewhat. And if you decide to go down that route and later on to do commercial/FI with them its not uncommon to be taken on as an instructor.
If you are planning to do it over weekends, I would go and visit them in Fife and see if you get on with the instructors. Euan if he is still there has a very good reputation. If you want to do it intensively a week at a time or in 3 weeks go to Inverness. The cost for additional travel and hotels will all work itself out to be about the same. The advantage with Inverness is the weather, the local area and the xcountry qualifier INV-WICK-KIRKWALL-INV will be very hard to beat anywhere for pure enjoyment of flying x-country.
MJ
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I guess what would be very nice for anyone wanting to do a PPL would be a table of the costs afor the different schnools nd what can be anticipated in terms of overall costs. For example, those schools that don't include landing fees, those that do, those that include test fees, books, course for radiotelephony - or do not, etc etc
For a beginner trying to get their heads around all this is difficult and can make a significant difference to the final costs!
How about some keen individual making a table like this and making it available on this site? Would be very useful for all those interested in learning to fly. Of course there are things other than costs but this is the real world and its often a limiting factor in the ability of someone to learn to fly.
Another thought, and to be provocative (!), the cost of learning to fly at one of the schools in the USA could be given as well - probably about 50% of the cost here and that is including accomodation for a three week intensive course top qulaify for a JAA PPL? Last time I looked at some of these websites the whole cost was less than 3,000 pounds - now, there is a thought!!
For a beginner trying to get their heads around all this is difficult and can make a significant difference to the final costs!
How about some keen individual making a table like this and making it available on this site? Would be very useful for all those interested in learning to fly. Of course there are things other than costs but this is the real world and its often a limiting factor in the ability of someone to learn to fly.
Another thought, and to be provocative (!), the cost of learning to fly at one of the schools in the USA could be given as well - probably about 50% of the cost here and that is including accomodation for a three week intensive course top qulaify for a JAA PPL? Last time I looked at some of these websites the whole cost was less than 3,000 pounds - now, there is a thought!!
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I'm afraid Euan is not at Tayside any more, he's teaching at JEFT's now. Suits him far more I would think!!
As for a table of costs, at the end of the day it is all very subjective. Whilst it can be an influencing factor it is more important that you visit a few schools and see where you feel most comfortable. This is more important than saving a couple of quid an hour, since if you end up flying a few hours more at one school, then the difference can be wiped out very quickly.
Training in the U.S is generally cheaper, but that doesn't include the extra costs you'll incur when you arrive back in the U.K or Europe.
I would always recommend that if you are going to fly in a certain environment, you should train in it. Skimping on a bit of cost at the beginning may cost you far more at a later stage.
As for a table of costs, at the end of the day it is all very subjective. Whilst it can be an influencing factor it is more important that you visit a few schools and see where you feel most comfortable. This is more important than saving a couple of quid an hour, since if you end up flying a few hours more at one school, then the difference can be wiped out very quickly.
Training in the U.S is generally cheaper, but that doesn't include the extra costs you'll incur when you arrive back in the U.K or Europe.
I would always recommend that if you are going to fly in a certain environment, you should train in it. Skimping on a bit of cost at the beginning may cost you far more at a later stage.
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Well sorry about this but I must disagree with you here. Lets be honest, the costs in the US are 50% of those here. Having trained in both the UK and USA I would recommend anyone to train in the USA!
By all means take a few extra lessons here to make sure that you are happy with the environment but remember that we should be flying in good weather - as PPLs, we are doing this for pleasure.
As regards costs, well 3,000 pounds is a lot of costs savings and more than pays for a few extra lessons when you return here to make sure you are up to speed.
By all means take a few extra lessons here to make sure that you are happy with the environment but remember that we should be flying in good weather - as PPLs, we are doing this for pleasure.
As regards costs, well 3,000 pounds is a lot of costs savings and more than pays for a few extra lessons when you return here to make sure you are up to speed.
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Rednine
thanks for that prompt and I think that this is an important issue - I have checked costs across Scotland and they vary hugely!
In fact there is such a huge variation that I will start another foreum about Actual Costs to learn to fly, because I think that this is so important - just wait until you see the variation in costs across one small county (sorry country!)
thanks for that prompt and I think that this is an important issue - I have checked costs across Scotland and they vary hugely!
In fact there is such a huge variation that I will start another foreum about Actual Costs to learn to fly, because I think that this is so important - just wait until you see the variation in costs across one small county (sorry country!)