Zone Infringements
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squibbler,
A zone infringement is a zone transit without the required ATC clearance is it not?
To avoid infringements, always get an ATC clearance before entering and to get an ATC cleaarance, file a flight plan or abreviated plan as per the AIP!
Regards,
DFC
A zone infringement is a zone transit without the required ATC clearance is it not?
To avoid infringements, always get an ATC clearance before entering and to get an ATC cleaarance, file a flight plan or abreviated plan as per the AIP!
Regards,
DFC
Err yes I know that thankyou (being an ATCO).....what do you do again.......?
Missed the point again.......
I expect you'll be posting again (you can't seem to let things drop) but I won't be.......you're a hopeless cause. Like to see you argue your case in a room full of ATCO's but I get the feeling you'd prefer the safety of your study/bedroom behind your keyboard
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would you like the Surgeon discounting your argument simply cause you are a mere GP?
However I would fully understand that they would tire soon if I kept banging on over an issue on which they had far more experience than I had, and which in their experience had not caused a problem, other than that 'The Book' stated something different from what worked in 'Real Life'
True professionals never deride other people's views but are very good at listening to other people's views and assimilating those of proven value.
Anyway can we take it then that you fly 75s out of Welshpool?
Rustle,
Nice to see you around and honoured to be quoted by you, although not sure what contribution it makes here being a bit out of context.
Missed you at the AIS meeting in January.
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lobby,
Since you are an air traffic person, I'll explain the flight plan;
There are a number of times when RIF is used. Basically the aircraft gets airbourne for one destination but knows in advance that for some reason the flight may proceed to another aerodrome.
The one I have come across before is on long range flights - one files to a destination that is conservative with regard to fuel and ensures reserves then if one has sufucuent fuel at the decision point, one can opt for the revised destination included in the RIF.
Example - old Atlantic flights eastbound when fuel was tight could file say Shannon as destination with Cork as alternate and then in item 18 specify;
RIF/54N15W Nxx STU G1 EGLL
This means that if there is sufficient fuel available at the oceanic boundary, the flight could (subject to ATC clearance in this case) be extended to Heathrow. If not then the flight refuels in Shannon.
Up until the RIF is acted upon, the flight is planned to Shannon and Shannon expect the flight. After the RIF is used, Heathrow becomes the destination and that is basically that.
These days the fuel available trans atlantic isn't a problem except for light aircraft ferry flights where the RIF can be used to overcome the legal reserve requirements i.e. flights on the atlantic must have large reserves.....thus one files as far as Shannon or Prestwick and then once across the atlantic, the reserves are not so critical (one needs 45 min as opposed to hours) and one can use the spare fuel to reach Paris or the UK or as far as one wants to try and push it with little sleep!
There is also the old fogbound airfield (below minima) - one files to a nearby airfield and RIF to the fogbound one if the weather clears.
It's all about passing on the intentions prior to flight thus keeping everyone in the picture.
Seems that it is also a neat way of ensuring that UK ATC can't simply bin a flight plan that one has addressed to them
Regards,
DFC
Since you are an air traffic person, I'll explain the flight plan;
There are a number of times when RIF is used. Basically the aircraft gets airbourne for one destination but knows in advance that for some reason the flight may proceed to another aerodrome.
The one I have come across before is on long range flights - one files to a destination that is conservative with regard to fuel and ensures reserves then if one has sufucuent fuel at the decision point, one can opt for the revised destination included in the RIF.
Example - old Atlantic flights eastbound when fuel was tight could file say Shannon as destination with Cork as alternate and then in item 18 specify;
RIF/54N15W Nxx STU G1 EGLL
This means that if there is sufficient fuel available at the oceanic boundary, the flight could (subject to ATC clearance in this case) be extended to Heathrow. If not then the flight refuels in Shannon.
Up until the RIF is acted upon, the flight is planned to Shannon and Shannon expect the flight. After the RIF is used, Heathrow becomes the destination and that is basically that.
These days the fuel available trans atlantic isn't a problem except for light aircraft ferry flights where the RIF can be used to overcome the legal reserve requirements i.e. flights on the atlantic must have large reserves.....thus one files as far as Shannon or Prestwick and then once across the atlantic, the reserves are not so critical (one needs 45 min as opposed to hours) and one can use the spare fuel to reach Paris or the UK or as far as one wants to try and push it with little sleep!
There is also the old fogbound airfield (below minima) - one files to a nearby airfield and RIF to the fogbound one if the weather clears.
It's all about passing on the intentions prior to flight thus keeping everyone in the picture.
Seems that it is also a neat way of ensuring that UK ATC can't simply bin a flight plan that one has addressed to them
Regards,
DFC
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By golly this gets more and more boring!
DFC
When are you going to give up? You have already reached the point of no return. Your arrogance is breathtaking and your downright nerve in trying to tell some good and great controllers how to do their jobs is..................well, it makes you look stupid.
Your arguments and your so-called debate is just pontificating rubbish. Ok, so you like ATC matters - so what! The problem is that you don't truly understand what goes on in the air - in the real world of day to day ATC. You completely ignore those who do. That is NOT a debate.
DFC
When are you going to give up? You have already reached the point of no return. Your arrogance is breathtaking and your downright nerve in trying to tell some good and great controllers how to do their jobs is..................well, it makes you look stupid.
Your arguments and your so-called debate is just pontificating rubbish. Ok, so you like ATC matters - so what! The problem is that you don't truly understand what goes on in the air - in the real world of day to day ATC. You completely ignore those who do. That is NOT a debate.
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Funnily enough DFC I DO know what a FPL is and have filed probably more than most in my 15 years in ATC. I have yet to see RIF in item 18. You have still not told me what it stands for. I cannot find any reference to RIF anywhere. My other half who used to work as a International Flight Planner has also never heard of this.
As far as I am aware you are not allowed to get airbourne with the intention of going anywhere other than your filed destination. If then you find you have incorrectly calculated your fuel you divert.
I stand corrected, I have found a reference to RIF. Still never seen it or find anyone that has on a flight plan.
RIF/ changes of routing to the changed destination aerodrome and/or changed destination aerodrome
http://www.ivao.org/training/tutoria...lightplans.htm
As far as I am aware you are not allowed to get airbourne with the intention of going anywhere other than your filed destination. If then you find you have incorrectly calculated your fuel you divert.
I stand corrected, I have found a reference to RIF. Still never seen it or find anyone that has on a flight plan.
RIF/ changes of routing to the changed destination aerodrome and/or changed destination aerodrome
http://www.ivao.org/training/tutoria...lightplans.htm
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RIF/ is nothing more or less than a field in which you may elect to enter the routing that you wish to use to get to a designated alternate.
I have no idea why DFC is quoting it in this context.
Perhaps he seriously thinks that the way to get service is to nominate a large number of alternates and to bounce between them on a RIF/ routing.
2D
I have no idea why DFC is quoting it in this context.
Perhaps he seriously thinks that the way to get service is to nominate a large number of alternates and to bounce between them on a RIF/ routing.
2D
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I wonder why DFC is so coy to come out of the closet and share with us what he is doing and where he fits into the aviation spectrum as given by him:
Pilots, ATCOs, Engineers, Spotters and Pimply bums
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Lobby,
I am reading the instructions for completing the ICAO flight plan form or CA48 or 2919 depending on where you are.
Take a look in DOC4444, Aerad, Jeppesen or even the RAF Flight Information Handbook whichever you have to hand.
"RIF/ The route details to the revised destination aerodrome, followed by the ICAO four-letter location indicator of the aerodrome. Example: RIF/DTA HEC KLAX"
-----
Flower,
It is an example!
I have never knew that Seaton had an airport yet the R/T manual constantly refers to it and some ATC people have spent a long time learning it's runway and taxiway layout.
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2Donkeys,
I seems that in the UK that such drastic measures are required for the time being!
------------
One must wonder what happens to transit flights that say fly Bournemouth to BRI and back to Bournemouth......do Bristol get a copy of the flight plan?
If what is said here, they do not and if they did they would bin it...............how then do they seem to know the details when Examxx calls up for some holds at the BRI and an ILS before return to BIA...............could it be that either a flight plan has been filed or a telephone call received and details recorded?
Regards,
DFC
I am reading the instructions for completing the ICAO flight plan form or CA48 or 2919 depending on where you are.
Take a look in DOC4444, Aerad, Jeppesen or even the RAF Flight Information Handbook whichever you have to hand.
"RIF/ The route details to the revised destination aerodrome, followed by the ICAO four-letter location indicator of the aerodrome. Example: RIF/DTA HEC KLAX"
-----
Flower,
It is an example!
I have never knew that Seaton had an airport yet the R/T manual constantly refers to it and some ATC people have spent a long time learning it's runway and taxiway layout.
---------
2Donkeys,
I seems that in the UK that such drastic measures are required for the time being!
------------
One must wonder what happens to transit flights that say fly Bournemouth to BRI and back to Bournemouth......do Bristol get a copy of the flight plan?
If what is said here, they do not and if they did they would bin it...............how then do they seem to know the details when Examxx calls up for some holds at the BRI and an ILS before return to BIA...............could it be that either a flight plan has been filed or a telephone call received and details recorded?
Regards,
DFC
Thread Starter
DFC, strangely enough I didn't start this thread for you to have a terminally boring diatribe on the merits and minutae of filing flight plans. Please start a flight plan thread if you feel so strongly about it.
My original intention was to get the opinions of ACTCOs and pilots on the reaction of the second ATCO. I thought the first ATCO handled the situation admirably; the infrigement (minor and no risk) was noted, apologies were made and that was it. The second ATCO made no contribution to flight safety, ATCO / pilot relations, or ATCO / ATCO relations in the way that he dealt with the already solved problem. Ah well, maybe he's just the kind of chap who needs extra vineger for the chips he obviously has on both shoulders.
My original intention was to get the opinions of ACTCOs and pilots on the reaction of the second ATCO. I thought the first ATCO handled the situation admirably; the infrigement (minor and no risk) was noted, apologies were made and that was it. The second ATCO made no contribution to flight safety, ATCO / pilot relations, or ATCO / ATCO relations in the way that he dealt with the already solved problem. Ah well, maybe he's just the kind of chap who needs extra vineger for the chips he obviously has on both shoulders.
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Perhaps the mods would like to split this discussion up to zone infringer's and flight planning ?
Regarding the comment about Bournemouth to BRI trainers, i am not sure why on earth you think DFC that we bin every flight plan.
Training aircraft generally want a period of time in Class A airspace as part of their flight. The most common route if training at Bristol is to route Bournemouth to EXMOR to gain an airways joining clearance then either a period of time within N864 before turning to the BRI for beacon training or turn at EXMOR for the BRI.
Flight plans are not discarded in anyway and both Cardiff ( who give the initial airways joining clearance ) and Bristol will have the information supplied to them as the Flight Plan will include the various reporting points, it is an IFR flight plan and all the appropriate people will have the information they require.
I really cannot figure the point you are trying to make BTW DFC. Flight plans with the correct addresses and reporting points end up at the correct units, we do not bin them.
Regarding the comment about Bournemouth to BRI trainers, i am not sure why on earth you think DFC that we bin every flight plan.
Training aircraft generally want a period of time in Class A airspace as part of their flight. The most common route if training at Bristol is to route Bournemouth to EXMOR to gain an airways joining clearance then either a period of time within N864 before turning to the BRI for beacon training or turn at EXMOR for the BRI.
Flight plans are not discarded in anyway and both Cardiff ( who give the initial airways joining clearance ) and Bristol will have the information supplied to them as the Flight Plan will include the various reporting points, it is an IFR flight plan and all the appropriate people will have the information they require.
I really cannot figure the point you are trying to make BTW DFC. Flight plans with the correct addresses and reporting points end up at the correct units, we do not bin them.
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Perhaps the mods would like to split this discussion up to zone infringer's and flight planning ?
Great idea....and another one for people who only deal in personal abuse!
You said;
Regarding the comment about Bournemouth to BRI trainers, i am not sure why on earth you think DFC that we bin every flight plan.
and
Flight plans with the correct addresses and reporting points end up at the correct units, we do not bin them.
So you are saying that for a training flight routing say EGHH dct BRI dct CDF dct BRI EGHH......with Bristol included as an addressee would result in Bristol retaining the flight plan and expecting the flight at some stage unless the flight plan is cancelled or changed. Bristol would never bin or ignore such a flight plan?.
If that is so then it is at odds with what Chilli etc have said.........I believe he used the term "logistically impossible" and said that with automatic procesing of FPL messages only inbounds and outbounds are presented.
Could it be that some units act on the flight plans which are correctly addressed to them and some do not?
Question for enroute people - if I file a plan prior to departure for the sole purpose of completing an airway crossing enroute. Is the flight plan put in the computer so that when I call up the FIR frequency, they can pull out the details or do I have to repeat the flight plan to the FIR controller?........Is this not a similar situation to the zone transit as I may choose to underfly the airway and not call for crossing clearance?
Regards,
DFC
Great idea....and another one for people who only deal in personal abuse!
You said;
Regarding the comment about Bournemouth to BRI trainers, i am not sure why on earth you think DFC that we bin every flight plan.
and
Flight plans with the correct addresses and reporting points end up at the correct units, we do not bin them.
So you are saying that for a training flight routing say EGHH dct BRI dct CDF dct BRI EGHH......with Bristol included as an addressee would result in Bristol retaining the flight plan and expecting the flight at some stage unless the flight plan is cancelled or changed. Bristol would never bin or ignore such a flight plan?.
If that is so then it is at odds with what Chilli etc have said.........I believe he used the term "logistically impossible" and said that with automatic procesing of FPL messages only inbounds and outbounds are presented.
Could it be that some units act on the flight plans which are correctly addressed to them and some do not?
Question for enroute people - if I file a plan prior to departure for the sole purpose of completing an airway crossing enroute. Is the flight plan put in the computer so that when I call up the FIR frequency, they can pull out the details or do I have to repeat the flight plan to the FIR controller?........Is this not a similar situation to the zone transit as I may choose to underfly the airway and not call for crossing clearance?
Regards,
DFC
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DFC I suspect you are misunderstanding previous posts on this topic.
Any unit to which a flightplan is relevant will be notified in the form of a Flight progress Strip.
The important word here now is relevant.
I think , and i don't like making personal comments , that you choose to misunderstand the responses here as you have decided that ATC are not interested in you.
A correctly filed flight plan ( note the correctly), will have the appropriate addresses on it and those addressees will be informed . There is nothing complex about it, there is no collusion with units dumping flight plans and everyone who should be informed according to the flight plan will be informed.
We may receive FPS on aircraft which have no relevance to us and at that point we will Bin the FPS however the flight plan still remains in the system and should it become necessary a FPS can be obtained within moments.
Now I suggest DFC you accept what all the ATC professionals are saying to you and that all Correctly filed Flight Plans will reach the appropriate destination.
Any unit to which a flightplan is relevant will be notified in the form of a Flight progress Strip.
The important word here now is relevant.
I think , and i don't like making personal comments , that you choose to misunderstand the responses here as you have decided that ATC are not interested in you.
A correctly filed flight plan ( note the correctly), will have the appropriate addresses on it and those addressees will be informed . There is nothing complex about it, there is no collusion with units dumping flight plans and everyone who should be informed according to the flight plan will be informed.
We may receive FPS on aircraft which have no relevance to us and at that point we will Bin the FPS however the flight plan still remains in the system and should it become necessary a FPS can be obtained within moments.
Now I suggest DFC you accept what all the ATC professionals are saying to you and that all Correctly filed Flight Plans will reach the appropriate destination.
- don't let him make it 9; please!! 
