PPL(A) Training Aircraft.
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PPL(A) Training Aircraft.
Dear PPRuNe'ers
I am about to start my PPL(A) training, having taken a few trial flights, and wanted to know from those taking lessons - but instructors also - whether certain aircraft such as the CAP 10B or Robin 2160 are considered suitable for flight training. They are the aircraft I would like to fly post PPL(A) - either one. I ask because the advice I received in NZ ('fly what you want'), runs slightly counter to advice in the UK ('fly the C152/172, etc).
I have taken trial flights in the Robin (in NZ), and have previously flown in RAF Bulldogs (just a few hours a lifetime ago!), and really enjoyed it. I love the excellent visibility, stick control, and excellent handling (from a novice's point of view). I found the Robin really similar to the Bulldogs I have flown in.
My choice is based on my trial flights, but also on advice from a very good mate (who used to instruct), that I should also consider the alternative of training in a CAP10B - although slightly more expensive - which is a superb training ab initio aircraft.
I read quite a few message strings on this site, such as 'Suitable aircraft to learn in', etc, and the view seems to be, "providing its not completely unsuitable, learn in whatever aircraft you want to." Thus, could those out there who have learned in the above aircraft, or have something they think would be useful to add, give me the benefit of their advice.
Look forward to all views. Feel free to PM.
Regards
Argo
I am about to start my PPL(A) training, having taken a few trial flights, and wanted to know from those taking lessons - but instructors also - whether certain aircraft such as the CAP 10B or Robin 2160 are considered suitable for flight training. They are the aircraft I would like to fly post PPL(A) - either one. I ask because the advice I received in NZ ('fly what you want'), runs slightly counter to advice in the UK ('fly the C152/172, etc).
I have taken trial flights in the Robin (in NZ), and have previously flown in RAF Bulldogs (just a few hours a lifetime ago!), and really enjoyed it. I love the excellent visibility, stick control, and excellent handling (from a novice's point of view). I found the Robin really similar to the Bulldogs I have flown in.
My choice is based on my trial flights, but also on advice from a very good mate (who used to instruct), that I should also consider the alternative of training in a CAP10B - although slightly more expensive - which is a superb training ab initio aircraft.
I read quite a few message strings on this site, such as 'Suitable aircraft to learn in', etc, and the view seems to be, "providing its not completely unsuitable, learn in whatever aircraft you want to." Thus, could those out there who have learned in the above aircraft, or have something they think would be useful to add, give me the benefit of their advice.
Look forward to all views. Feel free to PM.
Regards
Argo
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whether certain aircraft such as the CAP 10B or Robin 2160 are considered suitable for flight training.
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Dear Evo
Many thanks to you and Maxfly for your replies. I note you state, "The tailwheel CAP10 will probably take a little longer to solo than the 2160, but will reward you in the long run. That's the one I would pick."
Can I ask what you mean, 'in the long run' in terms of the rewards? Do you think it would make one a better provate pilot on completion of the PPL(A)?
Regards
Argo
Many thanks to you and Maxfly for your replies. I note you state, "The tailwheel CAP10 will probably take a little longer to solo than the 2160, but will reward you in the long run. That's the one I would pick."
Can I ask what you mean, 'in the long run' in terms of the rewards? Do you think it would make one a better provate pilot on completion of the PPL(A)?
Regards
Argo
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Argo, it may not make you a better pilot, but I would be fairly sure that it would make you better at take-off and (especially) landing.
Landing a tailwheel aeroplane takes a bit more care than landing an aeroplane with a nosewheel; the latter will tolerate some fairly sloppy landing technique without biting back (but you only need to look at the number of broken nosewheels in the AAIB reports to see that there's room for improvement). I would expect that it would take a little longer to master the CAP10 and go solo than it would take in a PA28 or C152, but I would have thought that getting your landing technique nailed right from the start could only be a good thing.
ISTR a PPRuNer (NinjaBill?) who did his PPL on the CAP10 - maybe he could comment further?
edit: the one downside that springs to mind is that it's hard enough trying to learn to land without trying to control something that would like to groundloop on you. If your performance drops when frustrated (as mine does, as I'm sure foxmoth will confirm
) then it may not be ideal.
Landing a tailwheel aeroplane takes a bit more care than landing an aeroplane with a nosewheel; the latter will tolerate some fairly sloppy landing technique without biting back (but you only need to look at the number of broken nosewheels in the AAIB reports to see that there's room for improvement). I would expect that it would take a little longer to master the CAP10 and go solo than it would take in a PA28 or C152, but I would have thought that getting your landing technique nailed right from the start could only be a good thing.
ISTR a PPRuNer (NinjaBill?) who did his PPL on the CAP10 - maybe he could comment further?
edit: the one downside that springs to mind is that it's hard enough trying to learn to land without trying to control something that would like to groundloop on you. If your performance drops when frustrated (as mine does, as I'm sure foxmoth will confirm
) then it may not be ideal.
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PPL(A) Training Aircraft
Many thanks for the continued responses.
I have PM'd NinjaBill on the CAP10B, so hopefully (s)he (never tell with people's handles!) will get back to me.
By the by, are there reasons why more people do not train on the CAP10B or 2160? Is it financial, in that 152/172's are cheaper to buy, maintain and run, etc?
Also, do you know of many clubs that will allow an ab initio to do their PPL and beyond (night, IMC) on the CAP10B - assuming a trial flight or two proves fun (which I just know it would!!). I live in London, but am more than happy to travel to a good club - such as Sherburn, who I know have one.
Look forward to your views all.
Regards
Argo
I have PM'd NinjaBill on the CAP10B, so hopefully (s)he (never tell with people's handles!) will get back to me.
By the by, are there reasons why more people do not train on the CAP10B or 2160? Is it financial, in that 152/172's are cheaper to buy, maintain and run, etc?
Also, do you know of many clubs that will allow an ab initio to do their PPL and beyond (night, IMC) on the CAP10B - assuming a trial flight or two proves fun (which I just know it would!!). I live in London, but am more than happy to travel to a good club - such as Sherburn, who I know have one.
Look forward to your views all.
Regards
Argo
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Well, the French aren't just good at football, you know! Choosing to train on an aircraft chosen as the ab initio trainer by an Air Force (eg a Chipmunk or a Bulldog or a Slingsby) is a good idea, and the Cap 10 was the choice for the French Air Force. If you can find one available for ab initio training, go for it. (Ninjabill learned on the Cap at Sherburn). I did not get my PPL on a Cap, but now have about 150 hours on the type, so PM me if you like for further discussion of its characteristics. In summary, the Cap is delightful to fly. Learning how to land it takes a little while, not least because it is so slippery in the air and reluctant to slow down or descend, but you get used to it. In my opinion, flying any taildragger improves your all round anticipation and handling skills, especially on or close to the ground.
As for people not learning much in Caps, Robins etc, it's really a matter of what's available, coupled with what many instructors have, as a result, become used to. The Cessnas and Pipers are primarily tourers rather than trainers, but they are cheap, plentiful, put up with being bashed and thrashed, and are relatively easy to look after, so they have become the default standard.
PS: you are welcome to come flying in a Cap 10 with me from White Waltham (NB I am not an instructor).
PPS: I have sent you a PM with some suggestions re Bulldogs as well.
As for people not learning much in Caps, Robins etc, it's really a matter of what's available, coupled with what many instructors have, as a result, become used to. The Cessnas and Pipers are primarily tourers rather than trainers, but they are cheap, plentiful, put up with being bashed and thrashed, and are relatively easy to look after, so they have become the default standard.
PS: you are welcome to come flying in a Cap 10 with me from White Waltham (NB I am not an instructor).
PPS: I have sent you a PM with some suggestions re Bulldogs as well.
Last edited by FNG; 22nd Jun 2004 at 07:32.
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Learnt to fly (all those years ago) in a Robin HR200...and now fly a TB09 which, incidentally, is also used as an ab-initio trainer in some parts. Both beautiful French aircraft.
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I'm currently learning at Sherburn in a PA28. However, as I've only done 37hrs including completing the QXC, I'm a bit short of time.
So, I'm using some of the remaining time to convert onto the R2160. The instructors are only too happy to let me do this (and to let me try some aeros whilst doing it) 
As for whether they'll let you start on either the Robin or the CAP, call and ask
So, I'm using some of the remaining time to convert onto the R2160. The instructors are only too happy to let me do this (and to let me try some aeros whilst doing it)
As for whether they'll let you start on either the Robin or the CAP, call and ask
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Many thanks for the replies.
I have checked with Sherburn, and they are happy for a student to undertake a PPL ab initio on the 2160 or CAP10B. They advised that, with regard to the latter aircraft, it would take longer and cost more to complete a PPL, but the door is open.
Regards
Argo
I have checked with Sherburn, and they are happy for a student to undertake a PPL ab initio on the 2160 or CAP10B. They advised that, with regard to the latter aircraft, it would take longer and cost more to complete a PPL, but the door is open.
Regards
Argo
