How to avoid infringements - advice from the Fly on Track Team
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How to avoid infringements - advice from the Fly on Track Team
Sound advice on the CAA's web site
http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/caanews.asp?nid=894
Sir George Cayley
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http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/caanews.asp?nid=894
Sir George Cayley
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Guys , guys.....
Sorry to see the usual descent happening.
Enevill - Dont be upset. It was probably a good idea at the time
FNG - Chill baby. The lad meant no 'arm
Bar Shaker - You're a very naughty boy!
Anyway back to the main point
Sound advice from a team for whom I have a lot of respect.
As someone who enjoys x country flying but has been stuck in the local area for yonks due not enough dosh I am always concerned about inadvertent infringing.
The record seems to show that many pilots still poke off into the luft with not a care or thought about the subject.
Education is the answer and the above is welcome. As wide an audience is desirable so why not print off the details and pin it on your club notice board?
Sir George Cayley
Enevill - Dont be upset. It was probably a good idea at the time
FNG - Chill baby. The lad meant no 'arm
Bar Shaker - You're a very naughty boy!
Anyway back to the main point
Sound advice from a team for whom I have a lot of respect.
As someone who enjoys x country flying but has been stuck in the local area for yonks due not enough dosh I am always concerned about inadvertent infringing.
The record seems to show that many pilots still poke off into the luft with not a care or thought about the subject.
Education is the answer and the above is welcome. As wide an audience is desirable so why not print off the details and pin it on your club notice board?
Sir George Cayley
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Some recent (2004) infringements of CAS in the London area are detailed here at the Flyontrack website.
WF.
p.s. and no, controllers haven't been asked or instructed to report more or else I would personally have caused the total to have gone up by a few more.
WF.
p.s. and no, controllers haven't been asked or instructed to report more or else I would personally have caused the total to have gone up by a few more.
Not so N, but still FG
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Well I did try to break it to him gently, Sir George, and at least the exchange may have illustrated the point that you shouldn't simply rely on the fortuitous interventions of others to get you out of trouble.
The Original Whirly
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Good advice here. Like everything else on PPRuNe, if you don't need it, that's fine, but some people may.
Bear in mind "hints" from ATC. I was flying back to Wolverhampton once from Duxford - or somewhere in that area - and planned to go by my usual route, turning at Henley in Arden. When I told Birmingham, they pointed out that this was right on the edge of their airspace. They didn't say: "Do you really want to do that, close to hills and in worsening vis, when five minutes more flying will take you to flat ground and uncontrolled airspace near Kidderminster?". But a few seconds thought made me realise what they were actually saying, and I changed my plans.
Bear in mind "hints" from ATC. I was flying back to Wolverhampton once from Duxford - or somewhere in that area - and planned to go by my usual route, turning at Henley in Arden. When I told Birmingham, they pointed out that this was right on the edge of their airspace. They didn't say: "Do you really want to do that, close to hills and in worsening vis, when five minutes more flying will take you to flat ground and uncontrolled airspace near Kidderminster?". But a few seconds thought made me realise what they were actually saying, and I changed my plans.
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All the time PPLs are taught to navigate solely using a compass, a chart, and recognising hedges, and all the time the CAA and most of the GA media pretend this is the "proper" way to do it, there will be infringements, and absolutely nothing can be done about it.
One could chip away around the edges, do loads of safety seminars etc, but most new PPLs don't do to those.
The process itself contains too many opportunities for gross errors, never mind minor errors.
Of course one can just wait for the number of new PPLs issued each year to fall even further. This will reduce the infringements by the appropriate percentage.
The bulk of the active old-timers tend to not get lost because they know all the relevant landmarks, and most pilots don't fly very far. These are the people that read all the bumph and turn up at the CAA safety seminars and lay their logbooks out on the table to get the CAA man to rubber stamp them.
Not that anything can be done, because nobody will want the PPL training to look any more expensive to the prospective punter.
One could chip away around the edges, do loads of safety seminars etc, but most new PPLs don't do to those.
The process itself contains too many opportunities for gross errors, never mind minor errors.
Of course one can just wait for the number of new PPLs issued each year to fall even further. This will reduce the infringements by the appropriate percentage.
The bulk of the active old-timers tend to not get lost because they know all the relevant landmarks, and most pilots don't fly very far. These are the people that read all the bumph and turn up at the CAA safety seminars and lay their logbooks out on the table to get the CAA man to rubber stamp them.
Not that anything can be done, because nobody will want the PPL training to look any more expensive to the prospective punter.
Not so N, but still FG
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I0, we've discussed this before, and I agree that training standards should be improved, and that training should include the use of GPS, but I don't think that the DR process is itself to blame for people getting lost. DR itself works, pure and simple. The errors are in the application of the process, and in poor flight planning (eg, planning to fly deliberately into airspace you have not noticed is controlled), as a consequence of being taught badly, or of not paying attention if taught well.
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One of the problems with GPS is the number of times I hear Farnbrough tell somebody to descend out of controlled airspace. I assume it is because the line wasn't drawn and hence the chart wasn't used properly.
BTW, on one of the few occasions I have used GPS it placed me five miles north of my current known pos. Probably more down to the software (Skymap IIIc) but still it is a worry
FWIW, I have switched the GPS on when I have decided that I am no longer 100% sure where I am and it is becoming difficult to get a fix and I think I am near controlled airspace.
My humble point being that GPS is very very useful...but DR is essential.
My impression is that new PPLs would rather spend more on training and also in my experience, FIs are brutally honest when they need to be.
BTW, on one of the few occasions I have used GPS it placed me five miles north of my current known pos. Probably more down to the software (Skymap IIIc) but still it is a worry
FWIW, I have switched the GPS on when I have decided that I am no longer 100% sure where I am and it is becoming difficult to get a fix and I think I am near controlled airspace.
My humble point being that GPS is very very useful...but DR is essential.
Not that anything can be done, because nobody will want the PPL training to look any more expensive to the prospective punter.
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What the CAA are really saying is "don't go into or near CAS as you're not welcome"
I fly a lot in America, and I was taught to plan my flight in a most direct a route as possible (avoiding prohibited areas of course), which I do. The reason I can do it in the USA is that I know that as soon as I talk to ATC that there will be no airspace issues, I WILL be cleared through Class C and below, more than likely I WILL get a Class B clearance should I need it (A over here), I will be allowed through millitary operation areas. I can also take advantage of the numerous VFR corridors through most large Class B areas, should it prove to be quicker.
Rather than let you infringe CAS you're not cleared into, ATC will tend to give avoiding vectors, I suppose their philosophy is that its better to give you a bit of a bollocking on the radio, and not have you infringe CAS, than let you infringe it and then offer you a phone number to call when you land. Of course this depends upon your level of competence, if you are a complete f*ckwit, burbling on the radio, not really sure of where you are, they wash their hands of you and wish you a nice flight.
I'm flying oop North later this week, and I have to plan my flight around CAS, around danger areas, and over MATZs according to the CAA. I would normally route direct, but if A don't clear me through, and then B don't clear me through, I can't go above C becasue of overlaying Class A which I WONT be cleared through, I have just doubled my workload by planning a direct routing. Now add in the british weather, cloud until FL50, then clear blue sunshine. I can't get to the sunshine due to the CAS above me, so I have to do all of this in IMC.
EA
I fly a lot in America, and I was taught to plan my flight in a most direct a route as possible (avoiding prohibited areas of course), which I do. The reason I can do it in the USA is that I know that as soon as I talk to ATC that there will be no airspace issues, I WILL be cleared through Class C and below, more than likely I WILL get a Class B clearance should I need it (A over here), I will be allowed through millitary operation areas. I can also take advantage of the numerous VFR corridors through most large Class B areas, should it prove to be quicker.
Rather than let you infringe CAS you're not cleared into, ATC will tend to give avoiding vectors, I suppose their philosophy is that its better to give you a bit of a bollocking on the radio, and not have you infringe CAS, than let you infringe it and then offer you a phone number to call when you land. Of course this depends upon your level of competence, if you are a complete f*ckwit, burbling on the radio, not really sure of where you are, they wash their hands of you and wish you a nice flight.
I'm flying oop North later this week, and I have to plan my flight around CAS, around danger areas, and over MATZs according to the CAA. I would normally route direct, but if A don't clear me through, and then B don't clear me through, I can't go above C becasue of overlaying Class A which I WONT be cleared through, I have just doubled my workload by planning a direct routing. Now add in the british weather, cloud until FL50, then clear blue sunshine. I can't get to the sunshine due to the CAS above me, so I have to do all of this in IMC.
EA
Not so N, but still FG
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That's a bit pessimistic, Al. Most Class D zones will let you in if you ask nicely (OK, Stansted perhaps excepted), and Heathrow will let you cut the corner of the CTR under SVFR. I do sometimes wonder, however, why some of the Class A extends so low in various areas around London.
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I disagree that only pilots are to blame for errors in dead reckoning. I think that some infiringements might occur Following a near-infringement, I've become extra cautious when it comes to navigation. I start planning 1 weeks in advance if possible using a variety of flight planning resources and still find errors that are beyond my control. The main source of errors is that actual wx conditions can differ from forecasted/reported wx. On hazy high pressure days, most weather reports will incicate unlimited vis and high cloud bases. But on some occasions (e.g my last nav flight) pilotage can become impossible and pilot may have to revert to DR only. Couple this with a dodgy wind forecast and it becomes a gamble. Winds can vary differently form forecasts, the largest discrepancy i've encoutered is 25kts in the other direction.
I am not procient in the use of any particular GPS unit, so i only use the groundspeed and track features to back up my traditional nav techniques. I do appreciate reports such as the OnTrack report. As a once every 3 wks pilot I am aware of my limitations and weakness. Its very hard for me to guage distances (what does a ground feature look like from 5 miles? i dunno) and i dread flying over featureless terrain. So I'm not immune to infirngements and I think every pilot should be wary of being overconfident.
Capt. M
I am not procient in the use of any particular GPS unit, so i only use the groundspeed and track features to back up my traditional nav techniques. I do appreciate reports such as the OnTrack report. As a once every 3 wks pilot I am aware of my limitations and weakness. Its very hard for me to guage distances (what does a ground feature look like from 5 miles? i dunno) and i dread flying over featureless terrain. So I'm not immune to infirngements and I think every pilot should be wary of being overconfident.
Capt. M
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Capt. Manuvar,
I tend to keep my check points very close (3-5 mins depending on features) when in very confined airspace. I think the weather can be judged quite easily if you adopt a technique that allows you to measure your error. I try to (try because its hard!) only start looking for ground features 3 mins before I am due overhead. In unconfined airspace I may make my checkpoints 10-15 mins apart so for 10 mins I am FREDAing, scanning, chatting and lookout only. Once I arrive at my checkpoint, because I haven't deviated prior to arriving at the checkpoint my fix will tell me how far off I am. Was it shoddy flying or wind that pushed me off-course? Usually wind, sometimes the other
If wind then I know pretty well how accurate the forcast is and can estmiate heading corrections for the remainder of the leg or the next leg.
I tend to keep my check points very close (3-5 mins depending on features) when in very confined airspace. I think the weather can be judged quite easily if you adopt a technique that allows you to measure your error. I try to (try because its hard!) only start looking for ground features 3 mins before I am due overhead. In unconfined airspace I may make my checkpoints 10-15 mins apart so for 10 mins I am FREDAing, scanning, chatting and lookout only. Once I arrive at my checkpoint, because I haven't deviated prior to arriving at the checkpoint my fix will tell me how far off I am. Was it shoddy flying or wind that pushed me off-course? Usually wind, sometimes the other
If wind then I know pretty well how accurate the forcast is and can estmiate heading corrections for the remainder of the leg or the next leg.
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With a moving-map GPS, there is no need to "use" it. You just switch it on, then look at it occassionally, and you can see where you are on the map.
All the other stuff, like loading the route into it, is nice but optional.
All the other stuff, like loading the route into it, is nice but optional.
Not so N, but still FG
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That's a valid point, IO. Yesterday I ded-reckoned from Waltham to Compton Abbas in summer haze, with a very helpful RIS from Boscombe Down. Above the inversion at 6000 feet, the horizontal visibility was superb, but seeing the ground features through the gunge below was still not easy. Chilbolton is east to spot (partly because of the adacent Radio Telescope, but mainly because of Genghis and Aerbabe's parked-up Uglybird). The leg from Alderbury to Compton has few features, and Compton itself is a bit out on its own. A quick glance at the moving map showed me Compton ahead, and I saw the airfield just before the very helpful Boscombe guy called me to say that it was in my 12 o'clock at 4 miles.
Last edited by FNG; 8th Jun 2004 at 10:15.