Circuit Etiquette

[Saab Dastard]

Slow-rider and FFF,

Just clarify, please - for a go-around from downwind, would you inform others of your intentions and then simply fly crosswind at circuit height to the deadside (somewhere between upwind and downwind numbers), then rejoin the circuit by flying crosswind again at the upwind end of the airfield?

Ta

SD

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I watched a Twotter do a tight approach a few years ago ... something like 250 feet ...

That's high for a bush plane ... why not do the whole trip at 100' above the water?

(Oh, you're talking about one with wheels on? - sacrilege!)

[jayemm]

What I chose to do

I put what I actually did in the situation down to "a learning experience" and wasn't particularly proud of the outcome.

Dubtrub: rule 39(3) didn't help because No. 1 was ignoring it.

The problem, as FNG suggested is getting a balance between rules, common sense (safety) and experienced judgement to inform the decision. It had nothing to do with the money, as IO540 suggested, but everything to do with whether I extend the circuit or "Nip in" as Stiknruda suggested, to maintain a reasonable circuit.

I decided to "nip in". I turned base, informed ATC who replied "Call final". On final, at about 50' and having called "Final to land", I suddenly hear the now no. 2 call "going round because some is now in front of me". Clearly I had either misjudged the distance of the other aircraft or had failed to see the correct one altogether. I believe we were not close enough to cause danger, and no-one said anything else, but the other guy probably saw me as having "pushed in", which I had.

My conclusion is that, unless you're an experienced Pitts pilot like Stiknruda (correct?), follow the one in front. You can always go round if you get too close.

[DubTrub]

Thanks to FNG and others who corrected me on the Rule.

JM, if No.1 was ignoring it, then surely you can complete your circuit in accordance with the Rules. This means that you would not be "cutting them up" (a term regularly mis-quoted). I always "cut" someone "up" if they do ludicrously large circuits, but I take care not to divert them from safe conduct of their flight, nor to inconvenience them unless they have done it twice.

I should argue that pilots conducting circuits outside of the designated airspace for circuits is illegal and dangerous (Endangerment and Rules Of The Air) .

Visibility of yourself and others within the circuit is of paramount importance. Pilots operating in large cross-country circuits do not help themselves by operating away from where other circuit traffic expect them to be.

GTW, nice photo. One of yours? If so, can I have a go?

DT

[Gertrude the Wombat]

One of yours?

I wish! - I'd settle for a Beaver actually. As it is, it's rented spamcans.

[DubTrub]

GTW:

Beaver is OK, but twin jets (Twotter) on floats?

Loverleyyyyy

[Keef]

Twotter on floats is indeed a thing of beauty, but it would have trouble landing at Sahfen' without wheels.

It just looked so amazing when that (relatively) large bird did a quick pirouette from downwind onto final, and promptly sat on the runway, and equally promptly turned off and down the taxiway.

Stunning! I had to give myself a stern talking-to about not being able to afford one.

[FNG]

jayemm, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, as it sounds as though the other aircraft may not have been paying attention, either by looking or listening. He may have made his somewhat petulant call whilst still miles behind you. Some people seem to fly as if in a bubble and only listen to their own RT. I mentioned above that I'm not generally very keen on orbitting in the circuit, but recall once doing so in a slow-chugging Cub, with an instructor. It was his call, as there was a faster aeroplane behind us which appeared to be having difficulty slowing down and keeping a distance. The instructor clearly announced that we would orbit once to allow the other guy to pass ahead (he was simply being courteous) . The next we hear is a splutttering alarmed voice on the radio: "There's somebody flying the wrong way around the circuit!". At least he was (sort of) looking, if not listening.

Saab, if going around from downwind or base, I would call "going around, circuit height" and fly the normal base leg without descending, then fly along slightly to the right of the runway and turn crosswind. Lookout and listening should tell you if anyone is joining deadside or coming onto crosswind that you need to avoid. As keef mentioned, if there is ATC, you may get some help: they might for example invite you to peel off for a a tight circuit from half way along the runway.

[FlyingForFun]

Saab,

I agree completely with FNG's description of how to go around from either downwind or base.

Jayemm,

As FNG said, don't be too harsh on yourself. Something to consider, though (and it may or may not have been appropriate or possible in this situation, I don't know...) is having a quick chat with the other pilot in the club-house afterwards - just to clear the air, make sure that he knows that you know that you didn't make the best choice, and doesn't walk away calling you an a$$-hole when all you've done is make a minor mistake.

(Happened to me last weekend, in fact. I was joining from the deadside, when someone took off and announced they were turning downwind for a low-level circuit. I realised there was a potential conflict, and decided to fly a tight circuit myself to stay ahead of the other aircraft. I completely screwed it up - the other aircraft was much tighter than I was, and I actually made the conflict worse. The other pilot informed me that he wanted to go in front of me, which was fine by me, so I extended downwind - but I think we were both left wondering what the other one was thinking. On the ground, though, we had a brief chat and both walked away knowing that both of us could have handled the situation better, and both of us were aware of our mistake, therefore neither of us was calling the other an a$$-hole. And, what's more, the other pilot turned out to be an examiner who was just finishing a successful skills test with another PPRuNer - so congratulations, you know who you are! )

FFF
----------------

[englishal]

I can't really see a problem cutting in if someone if doing a tour of the county on downwind, as long as it doesn't cause them to go around. Thats plain rude. The trouble is deciding what they are going to do, especially if they are non radio. I'd be inclined to follow in this case.

I had a similar thing at Gamston in a TB20, a 152 or something decided to extend miles downwind, which caused us problems. As the TB20 is faster than the 152, we had to extend even further so we didn't run up their backside on final. Before you know it you're low, slow and miles from a runway

[bar shaker]

The 'huge circuits' debate is something that probably stems from people applying their home field circuit style to new places that they visit. If you fly from somewhere with a close circuit it can be very frustrating following someone unfamiliar with your pattern who wants a 6 mile final. What makes it worse is that a ten minute circuit will increase the number of aircraft that are in circuit, on a typical weekend day. If those in circuit have greatly differing speeds, it all gets very tricky. Being in a twin, at number 3 to a 152 and a microlight, with the microlight following the 152's big circuit is not going to be fun.

RT is the key and I've found that most people don't mind you jumping in... if you ask. If the arriving aircraft is non radio, ATC will hopefully know this, be expecting them and will advise... in which case I would always follow them. Even if it felt like a cross country.

The other point is if arriving somewhere new, you can always ask for landmark turnpoints for their prefered circuit. Some ATC will say "please stay outside the village" or "turn base at outside the water tower" etc.

The main thing is that circuits are probably the highest risk period of our flights. Descending to circuit level is when most aircraft are prone to carb icing and 800ft doesn't give you much glide time to find somewhere to go into, if it all went quiet. Ideally, you would call a Pan or even Mayday and get into the airfield. If you are 3 miles away, you options may be much more limited.

[A and C]

Has he left the circuit ?

If someone is flying such big circuits that he has left the circuit area for no other reason than he cant control the aircraft within the normal circuit area then he has left the circuit and you should not follow him.

I wont have my costs put up by those who cant or wont fly properly.

[Ludwig]

When is a circuit not a circuit and when is final, final. If the bomber command circuit flyer is say three miles out on a three or four mile final, he is outside the ATZ anyway so is it still a valid final? If it is then as I approach an airfield and call say 25 mile final can I threrfore assume that no one will land before I get there as I have called final, the fact that there are 10 other in the circuit is tough they will then have to do 15 mile wide circuits so as not to cut me up.

[Boing_737]

I guess the whole thing boils down to airmanship at the end of the day. I am no expert in any way shape or form, but, if someone believes they are in the circuit, they are going to carry on regardless. As pilots we have a duty of care to avoid any unnecessary conflict in the air or ground, and if that means you have to go around even though you are in the right (or have at least have right of way), then so be it. I would rather go around than end up in pieces on the floor. You can quote the ANO until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't mean bloggs is going to follow it to the letter - so what if it costs you an extra 10 minutes? In my view, there is no point in getting wound up by it (especially in the cockpit) as this is just going to cause you stress and increase your workload (this may not be true for all, but certainly for me as a low hour PPL).

If you want an interesting time, visit White Waltham on a busy Saturday - Pitts and Tiger Moths flying tight circuits, 6 or 7 studes in the normal circuit (+- 100' ), visitors flying wide or tight circuits, its also a/g radio and accepts microlights and non-radio acft. You just have to keep a good look out

[FNG]

Fun, ain't it! It works most of the time. I've only seen a couple of untoward incidents, including that popular classic, the attempted "double decker" or "instant biplane homebuild" landing (which two guys in the States actually accomplished a couple of years ago). Never mind flying with a 25 stone stude: try it with someone parked up on your lift generating surfaces.

[IO540]

I hope people are exxagerating when they talk about 3,4,6,25 mile finals

I've been cut up when turning base about 2nm max from the runway numbers, which I regard as close enough and, after all, that's how most PPLs have been trained if they fly the circuit at circuit height.

[MLS-12D]

I spotted what might have been Number 1 treating the South East of England as the base leg, and seemingly taking it very slow. In fact, Number 1 was so far out, it could have been a passing aircraft.

That's the story of my life at the Brampton Flying Club, where people typically fly circuits so far out that one would think they are heading for another aerodrome. And of course this is capped by swooping down on (extra-long) final to about 150' agl, and then dragging the airplane in under power for the next 1½ miles. This has been the subject of many complaints (see here, for example), but nothing ever changes. Someday, somebody is going to be killed.

[stiknruda]

IO540 - a question

"2nm max from the runway numbers, which I regard as close enough"


I understand that you fly something "executive" with an N reg. Tell me honestly, (assuming that it is a single) if the donk failed 2miles out and you were at 1,000' and you had 10kts straight down the runway, could you make it to the threshold?

I don't know the answer in your mount but in my regular steed, I'd convert anything above 100mph into height, trim for the ton and expect to be seeing grass flying up from the wheels within a mile.


As mine glides like the proverbial flat-iron, I do try and keep any circuits very tight with bags of energy (speed/height) that I can dissapate at will.




Stik

[A and C]

By the end of a PPL course I expect the student to be able to fly a constant turn from downwind to rolling the wings level at about 300ft on final.

The tighter the circuit the more landings per hour so the more practice the student gets the better they get.

I cant help wondering if these large circuits are for the benifit of the student or the club owners or instructors ?.

The great advantage with these tight circuits is that if the engine stops you have a better than even chance of putting the aircraft back on the field.

[MLS-12D]

I cant help wondering if these large circuits are for the benifit of the student or the club owners or instructors?

Oh no, the dirty little secret is out.