Flying N-reg aircraft in Europe
Flying N-reg aircraft in Europe
Does anybody know the legalities of flying N registered aircraft abroad using a JAR licence??Join Date: Jun 2003
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This was discussed here recently, and the consensus appeared to be that you can't.
The other way around (flying a G-reg on an FAA license) is certainly OK in the UK, and is probably OK abroad too because the CAA automatically validates FAA licenses.
The other way around (flying a G-reg on an FAA license) is certainly OK in the UK, and is probably OK abroad too because the CAA automatically validates FAA licenses.
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Somewhere on here you'll find the "two out of three" guideline. It's not always right, but it's a good approximation.
What it says is that two of the following three have to match:
- The country being flown in
- The country of registration of the aircraft
- The country of issue of the pilot's licence.
So N-reg aircraft, outside UK, with British PPL = 1/3 so no go.
The real rules are far more complex but generally end up with the same answer.
What it says is that two of the following three have to match:
- The country being flown in
- The country of registration of the aircraft
- The country of issue of the pilot's licence.
So N-reg aircraft, outside UK, with British PPL = 1/3 so no go.
The real rules are far more complex but generally end up with the same answer.
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However, get a FAA PPL issued on the back of your JAA licence, for free, (just a paperwork exercise) and suddenly all the problems disappear 
It is possible to get a certificate issued by one of the visiting examiners which comes over to Europe every couple of months, if you can't get to the states, and then do the required Biannual Flight Review with an FAA instructor at one of the FAA schools here.....(Angel City Flyers at Enstone, Tom whatshisname at Norwich, or even 2Donkeys might do it for you as I believe he's an FAA chap as well) 
EA
It is possible to get a certificate issued by one of the visiting examiners which comes over to Europe every couple of months, if you can't get to the states, and then do the required Biannual Flight Review with an FAA instructor at one of the FAA schools here.....(Angel City Flyers at Enstone, Tom whatshisname at Norwich, or even 2Donkeys might do it for you as I believe he's an FAA chap as well) EA
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Keef
I haven't yet seen an exception to that rule, provided one remembers that
a) it applies only to a License, not to a Rating, and
b) a country might choose to endorse a foreign license to make it look like one of its own; the CAA endorsing FAA licenses is perhaps one example
Englishal
Do you know if one can attach an FAA IR to the license you describe (also known as an "piggyback FAA PPL")?
The drawback of a piggyback PPL is that you still have to pass (and pay for) both JAR and FAA medicals. But having both means one can fly both G-reg and N-reg, worldwide.
I haven't yet seen an exception to that rule, provided one remembers that
a) it applies only to a License, not to a Rating, and
b) a country might choose to endorse a foreign license to make it look like one of its own; the CAA endorsing FAA licenses is perhaps one example
Englishal
Do you know if one can attach an FAA IR to the license you describe (also known as an "piggyback FAA PPL")?
The drawback of a piggyback PPL is that you still have to pass (and pay for) both JAR and FAA medicals. But having both means one can fly both G-reg and N-reg, worldwide.
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IO540 said:
An FAA license issued on the back of a JAA one does NOT require an FAA medical. Nor does the FAA IR which can be attached to it.
The drawback of a piggyback PPL is that you still have to pass (and pay for) both JAR and FAA medicals.
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Like they said. You can indeed add an FAA IR to a piggyback PPL - the words are "Instrument Airplane US Test Passed".
I've got a piggyback PPL with that on it, but it's not valid any more cos I've also got a "proper" FAA PPL with the same IR on it.
Sad thing is, the CAA/JAA/EASA won't issue a reciprocal IR off the FAA one. Not a problem provided you belong to a club with an N-reg aircraft or can put your own on the N-reg.
IO540 I can't remember the specifics, but I recall reading that there is something somewhere in the depths of the detail where the "two out of three" rule doesn't work.
I've got a piggyback PPL with that on it, but it's not valid any more cos I've also got a "proper" FAA PPL with the same IR on it.
Sad thing is, the CAA/JAA/EASA won't issue a reciprocal IR off the FAA one. Not a problem provided you belong to a club with an N-reg aircraft or can put your own on the N-reg.
IO540 I can't remember the specifics, but I recall reading that there is something somewhere in the depths of the detail where the "two out of three" rule doesn't work.
Last edited by Keef; 21st Feb 2004 at 06:15.
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IO540 I can't remember the specifics, but I recall reading that there is something somewhere in the depths of the detail where the "two out of three" rule doesn't work.
FD
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Post Gulf War II I can well believe that 
But let's face it, the European authorities are going to always be suspicious of people using the FAA route because it is regarded as a way around their nice little job creation schemes over here...
But let's face it, the European authorities are going to always be suspicious of people using the FAA route because it is regarded as a way around their nice little job creation schemes over here...
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There are two different problems, nicely highlighted in this thread. The subtle difference between them isn't always appreciated.
There is the question of whether a particular licence/registration/location combination is valid at all, and there is the secondary question of whether if valid, any administrative hurdles have to be jumped before use.
For example, you may fly an N-reg aircraft anywhere in the world on your UK licence. It's true. But... you have to take your UK licence, jump through some hoops, and get an FAA licence issued on the back of it. No exams, or fees (to the FAA at least), just the formality.
An American Licence holder can come to Britain, hire a G-reg and fly it anywhere he likes inside and outside the country, without any formality at all. Just like the Americans do with JAR licences, we hold his licence to be valid (with certain caveat), but what is more, we don't want him to go through any formality before using his US licence. Truly, we are the land of the free.
In France, the same American wishing to fly an F reg all over the world is also allowed. However, the French insist that he should submit his licence for a French "validation" before he actually uses it in anger. They charge a small fee for this service, and give the lucky pilot a small piece of paper to accompany his US licence, and he is then good to go. Subject to certain restrictions, they will even validate an FAA IR (for a US citizen non-resident in the EU) for full use in F-reg aircraft.
The two-out-of-three rule should be struck from people's minds. It is wrong as often as not, and confuses even when it is right
2D
There is the question of whether a particular licence/registration/location combination is valid at all, and there is the secondary question of whether if valid, any administrative hurdles have to be jumped before use.
For example, you may fly an N-reg aircraft anywhere in the world on your UK licence. It's true. But... you have to take your UK licence, jump through some hoops, and get an FAA licence issued on the back of it. No exams, or fees (to the FAA at least), just the formality.
An American Licence holder can come to Britain, hire a G-reg and fly it anywhere he likes inside and outside the country, without any formality at all. Just like the Americans do with JAR licences, we hold his licence to be valid (with certain caveat), but what is more, we don't want him to go through any formality before using his US licence. Truly, we are the land of the free.
In France, the same American wishing to fly an F reg all over the world is also allowed. However, the French insist that he should submit his licence for a French "validation" before he actually uses it in anger. They charge a small fee for this service, and give the lucky pilot a small piece of paper to accompany his US licence, and he is then good to go. Subject to certain restrictions, they will even validate an FAA IR (for a US citizen non-resident in the EU) for full use in F-reg aircraft.
The two-out-of-three rule should be struck from people's minds. It is wrong as often as not, and confuses even when it is right
2D
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 21st Feb 2004 at 17:12.
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When considering puitting an IR on an FAA licence, one must remember that while a basic FAA PPL is automatically validated forever with the CAA, putting an IR on that licence limits the maximum validation period to 1 year.
Regards,
DFC
Regards,
DFC
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When considering puitting an IR on an FAA licence, one must remember that while a basic FAA PPL is automatically validated forever with the CAA, putting an IR on that licence limits the maximum validation period to 1 year.
What is your reference for that?
2D
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Fortunately, I think DFC is mistaken on that point. ICAO licences are automatically validated indefinitely in the UK regardless of any ratings that may happen to be attached to them. Regrettably, the FAA IR is not validated at all, save for it granting the right to fly outside controlled airspace under IFR. Similarly no rights to fly for hire or reward are granted when the licence is validated.
There are timing restrictions to the validations granted in countries such as France, but this is totally irrelevant in the context of the UK.
Is that what you had in mind DFC?
2D
There are timing restrictions to the validations granted in countries such as France, but this is totally irrelevant in the context of the UK.
Is that what you had in mind DFC?
2D
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The reference is JAR-FCL 1.015(a)2;
(b) Licences issued by non-JAA States
(1) A licence issued by a non-JAA State may be rendered valid at the discretion of the Authority of a JAA Member State for use on aircraft registered in that JAA Member State in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.015.
(2) Validation of a professional pilot licence and a private pilot licence with instrument rating shall not exceed one year from the date of validation, provided that the basic licence remains valid. Any further validation for use on aircraft registered in any JAA Member State is subject to agreement by the JAA Member States and to any conditions seen fit within the JAA. The user of a licence validated by a JAA Member State shall comply with the requirements stated in JAR–FCL.
Clear cut I think?
Regards,
DFC
(b) Licences issued by non-JAA States
(1) A licence issued by a non-JAA State may be rendered valid at the discretion of the Authority of a JAA Member State for use on aircraft registered in that JAA Member State in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.015.
(2) Validation of a professional pilot licence and a private pilot licence with instrument rating shall not exceed one year from the date of validation, provided that the basic licence remains valid. Any further validation for use on aircraft registered in any JAA Member State is subject to agreement by the JAA Member States and to any conditions seen fit within the JAA. The user of a licence validated by a JAA Member State shall comply with the requirements stated in JAR–FCL.
Clear cut I think?
Regards,
DFC
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It is very clear cut, except you have to read around you own references. JAR-FCL only constitutes law in the UK to the extent that it has been adopted into the ANO.
Here in the UK, we have decided not to discriminate in the way implied in your previous contribution.
FAA PPLs and FAA PPL/IRs are validated without formality and without time limitation. Check out: ANO Article 21 4 (A).
You will note that we side-step the issue to JAA's satisfaction by only rendering other ICAO IRs valid for flight under IFR outside controlled airspace.
2D
Here in the UK, we have decided not to discriminate in the way implied in your previous contribution.
FAA PPLs and FAA PPL/IRs are validated without formality and without time limitation. Check out: ANO Article 21 4 (A).
You will note that we side-step the issue to JAA's satisfaction by only rendering other ICAO IRs valid for flight under IFR outside controlled airspace.
2D
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in the UK
Are we going back round to the "only within the UK" bit again?
Remember that France does not accept any US training towards JAR-FCL!
Problem is that the last line quoted places the onus on the pilot. One can bet that if the pilot ends up in the clink French side, the CAA won't be rushing to help.
One has to wonder however, how the authorities can determine how long the validation has been issued for if there is no formal validation certificate. Everyone can simply claim that they only validated yesterday!!
Anyway, since the whole subject is about flying N reg aircraft, the whole validation of FAA licences debate will not matter (until the EASA limits based N regies to a 6 month stay)
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
Your position is based on a misunderstanding.
We are talking here about a pilot who holds an FAA certificate, and who wishes to fly an CAA-registered aircraft.
The authority on who may do this lies with the the CAA. The CAA says:
a) A JAA licence holder may fly the aircraft.
b) A CAA PPL holder may fly the aircraft
c) An ICAO PPL holder may fly the aircraft because the CAA renders such licences valid with the caveats contained in ANO Art 21 section 4.
Note that in case (c), the CAA does not render the licence valid as a JAA licence, the CAA simply recognises the status of a non-JAA ICAO PPL holder, and permits them to operate the aircraft. JAR-FCL 1.015 is totally irrelevant.
Since the CAA is the authority on who may operate G-reg aircraft, and the ICAO FAA PPL is "rendered valid" by the CAA, the pilot may fly that aircraft wherever they like with the CAA's full permission. Because the FAA PPL is an ICAO licence, and the CAA has deemed it acceptable for their aircraft, other ICAO states are bound to recognise the FAA licence/G-reg combination by the Chicago Convention.
None of this has anything to do with JAR-FCL, since the process being described here does not obligate any other JAA member to accept this licence-holder, other than when he is flying a G-reg aircraft.
2D
Your position is based on a misunderstanding.
We are talking here about a pilot who holds an FAA certificate, and who wishes to fly an CAA-registered aircraft.
The authority on who may do this lies with the the CAA. The CAA says:
a) A JAA licence holder may fly the aircraft.
b) A CAA PPL holder may fly the aircraft
c) An ICAO PPL holder may fly the aircraft because the CAA renders such licences valid with the caveats contained in ANO Art 21 section 4.
Note that in case (c), the CAA does not render the licence valid as a JAA licence, the CAA simply recognises the status of a non-JAA ICAO PPL holder, and permits them to operate the aircraft. JAR-FCL 1.015 is totally irrelevant.
Since the CAA is the authority on who may operate G-reg aircraft, and the ICAO FAA PPL is "rendered valid" by the CAA, the pilot may fly that aircraft wherever they like with the CAA's full permission. Because the FAA PPL is an ICAO licence, and the CAA has deemed it acceptable for their aircraft, other ICAO states are bound to recognise the FAA licence/G-reg combination by the Chicago Convention.
None of this has anything to do with JAR-FCL, since the process being described here does not obligate any other JAA member to accept this licence-holder, other than when he is flying a G-reg aircraft.
2D
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 23rd Feb 2004 at 04:46.