Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!
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Shiny CPL Holders Who Work For Free
The company that I work for has just been done out of a contract by another Charter company because the owner undercut our quote by saying to his new CPL holders that they can get 50 or so hours if they work for free.
This has not only disadvantaged our company and I do work for a boss who will always try and do the right thing by his pilots and staff ie pay, but continues to undermine the industry that we all work in.
I cant see the benefits in EVER working for free and it continually annoys me that there are pilots out there that will do it. There must be someway that we can get through to shiny new guys that it only hurts them. The contract involved about 150hrs (min)flying and is obviously valuable work for a company but should not be at the expense of the pilot.
I also cannot understand how a pilot could consider working for free. If every pilot out there decided to do the honest and best thing by not working for free then we wouldnt have people doing it because of the "if i dont someone else will" mentality. For example if all the pilots in their company had told their boss to shove his plan up his ar$e then he would have had to put a fair quote in.
I'm not against decent competition or even another company getting a contract that we also applied for but am rather pi$$ed of with little $hits who will work for free!!!
Twin
This has not only disadvantaged our company and I do work for a boss who will always try and do the right thing by his pilots and staff ie pay, but continues to undermine the industry that we all work in.
I cant see the benefits in EVER working for free and it continually annoys me that there are pilots out there that will do it. There must be someway that we can get through to shiny new guys that it only hurts them. The contract involved about 150hrs (min)flying and is obviously valuable work for a company but should not be at the expense of the pilot.
I also cannot understand how a pilot could consider working for free. If every pilot out there decided to do the honest and best thing by not working for free then we wouldnt have people doing it because of the "if i dont someone else will" mentality. For example if all the pilots in their company had told their boss to shove his plan up his ar$e then he would have had to put a fair quote in.
I'm not against decent competition or even another company getting a contract that we also applied for but am rather pi$$ed of with little $hits who will work for free!!!
Twin
Has the company who awards the contracts been informed of this? It may change the way they award contracts in the future. It may not either...but it may be worth a try.
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Yes we have told the company of the reasons surrounding the lesser quote but got a reply to the effect of "what can we do, they're cheaper". It s not really their fault though, they have a business to run, its the fault of the other operator and the pilots who do not have the balls to tell him to get stuffed.
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Working for free is such a sad, sad thing to have to do. I know because I did it. I could not get a job with my low experience, so I went out and got 250hrs worth of PJE (free) time and then landed a good job.
I don't know if I agree with those who proclaim "it will only hurt you" etc. Maybe someone would like to explain this statement?
Obviously if every new pilot refused to work for free, no pilot would ever have to. The most basic law in life is that of supply and demand. Unfortunately there is a large supply of pilots and very low demand for thier services. It's not the pilot's fault for electing to work for free, it is the employer's who say to them "we don't pay you." If you knew you'd get a good job if only you had a couple of hundered more hours, what would you do? Stack shelves, or fly for free and stack shelves at night?
Good luck to the newbie CPLs. Do not work for free unless you find no alternative. Idiotic operators who go thru 10 pilots per year beacause they don't pay them invariably pay more in the long run.
I don't know if I agree with those who proclaim "it will only hurt you" etc. Maybe someone would like to explain this statement?
Obviously if every new pilot refused to work for free, no pilot would ever have to. The most basic law in life is that of supply and demand. Unfortunately there is a large supply of pilots and very low demand for thier services. It's not the pilot's fault for electing to work for free, it is the employer's who say to them "we don't pay you." If you knew you'd get a good job if only you had a couple of hundered more hours, what would you do? Stack shelves, or fly for free and stack shelves at night?
Good luck to the newbie CPLs. Do not work for free unless you find no alternative. Idiotic operators who go thru 10 pilots per year beacause they don't pay them invariably pay more in the long run.
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Yardglass, to me it has everything to do with the pilot's work ethic, rather than the operator.
What a cop-out.
Your last paragraph is hypocritical in the extreme. What a load of garbage. Operators who pay 10 CPL's nothing will pay nothing in the long run, because people like you choose to take no remuneration!
People like you have to share equal responsibility with the operators for accepting no pay.
What a cop-out.
Your last paragraph is hypocritical in the extreme. What a load of garbage. Operators who pay 10 CPL's nothing will pay nothing in the long run, because people like you choose to take no remuneration!
People like you have to share equal responsibility with the operators for accepting no pay.
I'm proud to say that after I paid to get my licence/rating I have not worked for free(even though I was unemployed for quite some time before gaining my first commercial aviation employment; it was just as tough to get a start back in the economic downturn of the early 1980's as it is now); I have paid for endorsements that I use for my own entertainment but not those I use professionally.
We are a trained, skilled profession and I will not provide my skills for free( charities excepted); if I am now, and ever was, worth my salt then I expect to be paid for the skills I provide.
Those of us that work for free are doing the majority a huge disservice; there is an obligation to leave aviation and the profession better than when you entered it.
Do not ever fly for free for a commercial aviation enterprise. For a charity or club as a member maybe, but never for someone who is profiting from the work you do.
A man/ woman is worthy of their labour and should be paid for their efforts.
Remember, when you get to where you want to go in aviation that it is better to look back on how you got there and have no regrets or shame for your actions, than to look back and say I wish I hadn't sold my myself and peers out.
They say moral courage is just as important as physical courage and that maybe food for thought on this special day for all Australians.
End of semi drucken rant.
We are a trained, skilled profession and I will not provide my skills for free( charities excepted); if I am now, and ever was, worth my salt then I expect to be paid for the skills I provide.
Those of us that work for free are doing the majority a huge disservice; there is an obligation to leave aviation and the profession better than when you entered it.
Do not ever fly for free for a commercial aviation enterprise. For a charity or club as a member maybe, but never for someone who is profiting from the work you do.
A man/ woman is worthy of their labour and should be paid for their efforts.
Remember, when you get to where you want to go in aviation that it is better to look back on how you got there and have no regrets or shame for your actions, than to look back and say I wish I hadn't sold my myself and peers out.
They say moral courage is just as important as physical courage and that maybe food for thought on this special day for all Australians.
End of semi drucken rant.
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We could also consider that paying for ICUS is as bad as working for free. 
Other industries provide on the job training to qualified professionals beginning their careers. Why should we have to pay for it....
Then again we could stop complaining and get on with it
(I never say anything just to start trouble, really )
Other industries provide on the job training to qualified professionals beginning their careers. Why should we have to pay for it....
Then again we could stop complaining and get on with it
(I never say anything just to start trouble, really
)
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Agree with spinout. Get some proof, stat decs, documents etc and give it to the good professor. Copies to the ACTU and the shadow ministers of aviation/labour and industry etc.
Don't bother with the government. They would applaud the practice as a flexible workplace arrangement.
Don't bother with the government. They would applaud the practice as a flexible workplace arrangement.
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I have had my CPL for over 12 years, and although I fly only on a casual basis as I have a job that I can't afford to leave, I have never been paid a cent for the work I have done.
I don't have millions of hours but I have given employers over 300 hours during my career.....for nothing. I did not question this as this is what I was told when I got into the industry.
Seeing these posts really hit home that I have been "used" over the years, which I just thought was normal practice within the helo industry.
I could not afford to leave my current employer and go flying due to the economic realities of the situation. I am sure there have been other people out there that have been told similar.
I am not bitter, but disappointed that operators will take advantage of wide eyed students that will do anything for hours.
I don't have millions of hours but I have given employers over 300 hours during my career.....for nothing. I did not question this as this is what I was told when I got into the industry.
Seeing these posts really hit home that I have been "used" over the years, which I just thought was normal practice within the helo industry.
I could not afford to leave my current employer and go flying due to the economic realities of the situation. I am sure there have been other people out there that have been told similar.
I am not bitter, but disappointed that operators will take advantage of wide eyed students that will do anything for hours.
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It may be of interest that outside aviation, many people lacking experience jump long recruitment queues by offering to start on "two weeks work experience" for free, with no retention obligation (unpaid probabtionary employment I suppose). In the real world (!) most people won't work for much longer than that without income - I guess in this industry there are probably a few too many subsidised rich boys.
Seasonally Adjusted
To all those "shiny CPL's" out there who don't object to flying for nothing.
Your non-paid duties will also include: emptying bins, answering phones, compiling quotes (a handy task as you can pinch the jobs from the other drivers), picking up the mail (in your own car of course), mowing lawns and pulling weeds, sweeping hangar floors (it's too expensive to get the LAME to do it), picking up parts for the LAME including his lunch (nothing against the LAME, he's a very busy man), delivering leaflets promoting the company (more unpaid flying for you maybe?), washing the aircraft (not a bad job if it's 35 degrees plus), updating all the paperwork when that nasty man from CASA is due to appear (he wants to close us down so you wont be able to fly anymore!), fixing the air conditioning (very much in your interest if it's good weather for washing planes)...the list goes on...hop to it girls and boys.
Your non-paid duties will also include: emptying bins, answering phones, compiling quotes (a handy task as you can pinch the jobs from the other drivers), picking up the mail (in your own car of course), mowing lawns and pulling weeds, sweeping hangar floors (it's too expensive to get the LAME to do it), picking up parts for the LAME including his lunch (nothing against the LAME, he's a very busy man), delivering leaflets promoting the company (more unpaid flying for you maybe?), washing the aircraft (not a bad job if it's 35 degrees plus), updating all the paperwork when that nasty man from CASA is due to appear (he wants to close us down so you wont be able to fly anymore!), fixing the air conditioning (very much in your interest if it's good weather for washing planes)...the list goes on...hop to it girls and boys.
Last edited by Towering Q; 26th Apr 2002 at 00:00.
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I agree with compressor stall, and you said you told the company. Good, but tell them that the pilots flying are so inexperienced that they can't get a paid job. Inexperienced pilots need a job where they get decent supervision. Are the supervisors getting paid and DOING their job? In any case working without pay is counterproductive. As soon as you get enough experience to work for money, some one else will do THAT job for free. And so it goes up the foodchain.
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As a former chief pilot of a company in the NT many moons ago employing close to a dozen pilots in the dry season, one of the more interesting aspects of the job was receiving and replying to resume's of low time CPL holders.
These resumes varied from short one/two page concise to the point and down to earth resumes (which we preferred) to others with photographs of themselves with more gold braid and stripes than a decorated Battle of Britain fighter ace standing in front of some shiny jet transport after having described in detail their work experience at McD's and Pizza Hut! (good to have done but just too much info for me).
Occasionally we would get the resume which included such comments as "Being the son of a wealthy grazier............I am prepared to work for free for the first 6 months".
Also the same thing was touted by others not so financially secure which really concerned myself and my colleagues.
These resumes were dealt with the following way after having contacted those pilots and told them how by offering to fly for free they are cutting the throats of every pilot in the industry and potentially denying themselves a viable future as well paid professionals : FILED IN THE BIN WHERE IT BELONGED.
This method of dealing with these kind of people had the unanimous vote of all our company pilots (and subsequently every pilot I've ever spoken to about it) and every AFAP rep I spoke to at the time.
Dropping parachutists for nicks seems to be a long time tradition and one thing, but to contact a company that pays their pilots the correct GA award and maintained their company aircraft to a good standard and offer to fly for free to me is lower than snake****!
The industry has no room for these low-lifes who are effectively robbing others like yourselves of a future.
These resumes varied from short one/two page concise to the point and down to earth resumes (which we preferred) to others with photographs of themselves with more gold braid and stripes than a decorated Battle of Britain fighter ace standing in front of some shiny jet transport after having described in detail their work experience at McD's and Pizza Hut! (good to have done but just too much info for me).
Occasionally we would get the resume which included such comments as "Being the son of a wealthy grazier............I am prepared to work for free for the first 6 months".
Also the same thing was touted by others not so financially secure which really concerned myself and my colleagues.
These resumes were dealt with the following way after having contacted those pilots and told them how by offering to fly for free they are cutting the throats of every pilot in the industry and potentially denying themselves a viable future as well paid professionals : FILED IN THE BIN WHERE IT BELONGED.
This method of dealing with these kind of people had the unanimous vote of all our company pilots (and subsequently every pilot I've ever spoken to about it) and every AFAP rep I spoke to at the time.
Dropping parachutists for nicks seems to be a long time tradition and one thing, but to contact a company that pays their pilots the correct GA award and maintained their company aircraft to a good standard and offer to fly for free to me is lower than snake****!
The industry has no room for these low-lifes who are effectively robbing others like yourselves of a future.
The question that should be asked is how does one survive without being paid?. Someone else is paying for them, rich dad maybe. If I was an employer I could not live with myself if I exploited people like this. I know a few in Darwin who live by these rules though. Pilots who allow themselves to be exploited are weak and there are no exuses to justify this action. Most people don't look at the bigger picture. We live in an increasingly gready society where this is looked apon as a positive human trait.
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G'day,
I think it is time to get rid of all the smoke and mirrors and let everybody know the name of this company. Why should they get away with this outrageous conduct and be able to rip these pilots off?. Lets face it guys, if you were in this situation considering the aviation climate of late, would you say no?. I think the only way EVERYBODY will get an informed view of what is going on is to force this company to make public (on this board or otherwise) why they do this.
I am sick to death of people from other industries (nursing, teachers etc ) with ample opportunites and paying conditions that F*&%ing winge about what they go through with unions and all behind them, whilst the G.A pilots of this country get treated in this way. Unfair dismissals, discrimination, underpay/no pay, coercion and bad working conditions are something that most of us will face in OUR careers and just accept it! Imagine if this happened to nurses or teachers or any other specialized industry.
I appeal to Woomera on behalf of the pilots that want to do the right thing, let those in the know publish the name of this company on this board. If they have nothing to hide then all will be well and we will get their reasons. If they are hiding something then this industry will be better off when they realise that pilots need to get paid!
A.S.
I think it is time to get rid of all the smoke and mirrors and let everybody know the name of this company. Why should they get away with this outrageous conduct and be able to rip these pilots off?. Lets face it guys, if you were in this situation considering the aviation climate of late, would you say no?. I think the only way EVERYBODY will get an informed view of what is going on is to force this company to make public (on this board or otherwise) why they do this.
I am sick to death of people from other industries (nursing, teachers etc ) with ample opportunites and paying conditions that F*&%ing winge about what they go through with unions and all behind them, whilst the G.A pilots of this country get treated in this way. Unfair dismissals, discrimination, underpay/no pay, coercion and bad working conditions are something that most of us will face in OUR careers and just accept it! Imagine if this happened to nurses or teachers or any other specialized industry.
I appeal to Woomera on behalf of the pilots that want to do the right thing, let those in the know publish the name of this company on this board. If they have nothing to hide then all will be well and we will get their reasons. If they are hiding something then this industry will be better off when they realise that pilots need to get paid!
A.S.
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Just run em out of town!
Years ago we had one of these fly-for-free puke wannabees with a silver spoon up his @rse come in every day and lick the anal-chute of a certain Company owner in the NT (not yours TIM). Unfortunatley the bloodey owner started to like him and his ideas. So at 3am a bunch of us slashed his tyes and trashed his nice new shiney bike. The pr!ck suspected us and reported it to the cops but he picked the wrong station because the cops were drinking-mates of ours. It took two of us (consecutiveley over 2 weeks) to f**k his GF behind his back before the message finaly sunk in.
Bloodey wimp bawled his eyes out as we publicaly jeered the little sh!t and saw him off on the TN flight to make sure the b@stard did leave. Pr!ck.
Tough measures but it was either that or havin our alreadey crap-pay possibley "adjusted" in the future.
Bloodey wimp bawled his eyes out as we publicaly jeered the little sh!t and saw him off on the TN flight to make sure the b@stard did leave. Pr!ck.
Tough measures but it was either that or havin our alreadey crap-pay possibley "adjusted" in the future.
Last edited by Slasher; 26th Apr 2002 at 03:51.
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I feel no need to publically name the operator as i have no intention of ever flying for such a company. It would however give me alot of pleasure in naming the little sh!ts who will be doing the work for free so that any other operaters out there may decide not to employ them later on. Unfortunately i cant do this as i do not know their names and even if i did i dont know how correct it would be to shame them on the internet without their knowledge. Although it would feel good
Maybe i need some drinking friends in the force hey slash!
Maybe i need some drinking friends in the force hey slash!
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Any pilot that works for free undervalues both his/her self and the entire industry.
Operators should consider perhaps how these "staff" treat both their valuable clients and expensive machines!
Anyone who works for free and takes bread out of the mouths of guys trying to make an honest living should be blackballed from operating from any decent company in their hopefully limited futures,
Operators should consider perhaps how these "staff" treat both their valuable clients and expensive machines!
Anyone who works for free and takes bread out of the mouths of guys trying to make an honest living should be blackballed from operating from any decent company in their hopefully limited futures,