Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!
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404 Titan,
If the issue was black and white this would have been a very short thread indeed.
I do not/have not worked for nothing. Nor would I employ same.
"Most of the service stations these days are self service"
Why?
Where have all the forecourt attendents gone? Kunnanara looking for flying jobs, perhaps?
Automation and progress? "Self service" is doing something for nothing and putting someone else out of a job but you refuse to see it that way. Seems progress includes more people working for nothing.
Re youngsters at flying schools - last time I looked training was "aerial work", not private as you suggest.
If Onan was to actually displace a payed employee or affect someones pay/condx then I agree with you completely.
However, the job description "pilot" seems to be getting bigger and more varied day by day. What I mean is we often undertake many duties outside the job description in order to keep our jobs. Arguably, working for nothing.
For example, I had an employer who rather than sack and rehire during quiet periods, kept his people on and found odd jobs to do to keep the crew together.
How does this sit with your moralistic high horse?
I am in the same boat as you 404. I had to ease into aviation as I could not afford to do it any other way. I was gutted when I saw people turning up for flying lessons in their BMW's etc who could afford the right type ratings etc to get the best jobs, and did. People who would have been better off staying with Daddy's company.
In many ways I agree with what you say.
It is the "shop steward" approach of many years ago that I find offensive.
So, I think like you and am self centered and immoral...
If the issue was black and white this would have been a very short thread indeed.
I do not/have not worked for nothing. Nor would I employ same.
"Most of the service stations these days are self service"
Why?
Where have all the forecourt attendents gone? Kunnanara looking for flying jobs, perhaps?
Automation and progress? "Self service" is doing something for nothing and putting someone else out of a job but you refuse to see it that way. Seems progress includes more people working for nothing.
Re youngsters at flying schools - last time I looked training was "aerial work", not private as you suggest.
If Onan was to actually displace a payed employee or affect someones pay/condx then I agree with you completely.
However, the job description "pilot" seems to be getting bigger and more varied day by day. What I mean is we often undertake many duties outside the job description in order to keep our jobs. Arguably, working for nothing.
For example, I had an employer who rather than sack and rehire during quiet periods, kept his people on and found odd jobs to do to keep the crew together.
How does this sit with your moralistic high horse?
I am in the same boat as you 404. I had to ease into aviation as I could not afford to do it any other way. I was gutted when I saw people turning up for flying lessons in their BMW's etc who could afford the right type ratings etc to get the best jobs, and did. People who would have been better off staying with Daddy's company.
In many ways I agree with what you say.
It is the "shop steward" approach of many years ago that I find offensive.
So, I think like you and am self centered and immoral...
currawong
I am and neither are you putting someone out of work because we use a Self Service petrol station. In this industry and in most others increased competition has resulted in lower margins being made by employers. Lower margins means less profit. Less profit means fewer employees. On the other hand increased competition means more jobs because there are more employers i.e. more service stations. The point is though that the people that do work in the petrol stations are paid a wage. They don’t do it for nothing
I'm sorry but you are wrong. If the youngster is taking the aircraft out by himself to keep current it is “Private Hire”. It is only “Aerial Work” if it is a training flight, which in this case it isn’t.
Good because that is exactly what he has done. If two companies had to compete for this work, the one that doesn’t pay the pilot has an unfair advantage over the one that does. This then causes the margin for the company that does pay his pilot to be squeezed, which in turn means there are fewer jobs for paid pilots. There maybe the same number of total pilot jobs but a large proportion of them are doing it for nothing. This is totally different to the Service Station scenario.
As for the job description of GA pilot. I have been in this industry a long time and worked for a number of different employers and it has always included as well as flying, answering the phone, doing quotes, washing aircraft, fueling the aircraft, loading the aircraft, doing the document amendments for the chief pilot and making the coffee for him as well. If you don’t want to do all these things then you will have to work for a large airline, as even in some regionals you will have to do some of them. Again the point is I am being paid to do the job.
If you really want to know my political view, I’m very right wing. I have generally never liked unions but in some cases think they are a necessity, especially in this day of enterprise bargaining. You have a much better chance of getting the conditions you want if you bargan as a group rather than as an individual.
Automation and progress? "Self service" is doing something for nothing and putting someone else out of a job but you refuse to see it that way. Seems progress includes more people working for nothing.
Re youngsters at flying schools - last time I looked training was "aerial work", not private as you suggest.
If Onan was to actually displace a payed employee or affect someones pay/condx then I agree with you completely.
However, the job description "pilot" seems to be getting bigger and more varied day by day. What I mean is we often undertake many duties outside the job description in order to keep our jobs. Arguably, working for nothing.
It is the "shop steward" approach of many years ago that I find offensive.
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404
Once again we are very nearly in agreement.
But why do you claim to know more about situations that you have not seen than the people actually there?
The "ramp rats" I refered to were doing it for training, therefore aerial work applies. I was there, I know. You were not.
Why would you claim any different?
Onan gave us some pretty scant details. For all we know the crews got together and asked the employer to get Onan on the job to cover them for a night off or something.
Perhaps a temp is beyond this employer so it is a win/win for all. For all we know this operater does not have opposition to undercut.
We just don't know.
Why would you jump to the conclusion he/she is some kind of scab or something?
I fear if you continue to assume you know more than everybody else here you will be pigeon-holed with Winstun.
Once again we are very nearly in agreement.
But why do you claim to know more about situations that you have not seen than the people actually there?
The "ramp rats" I refered to were doing it for training, therefore aerial work applies. I was there, I know. You were not.
Why would you claim any different?
Onan gave us some pretty scant details. For all we know the crews got together and asked the employer to get Onan on the job to cover them for a night off or something.
Perhaps a temp is beyond this employer so it is a win/win for all. For all we know this operater does not have opposition to undercut.
We just don't know.
Why would you jump to the conclusion he/she is some kind of scab or something?
I fear if you continue to assume you know more than everybody else here you will be pigeon-holed with Winstun.
currawong
What’s the difference if these guys were being paid cashto sweep the hangar and refueling aircraft and having a credit put aside for future training. Both ways the flying school has to make the same allowance in the books and in both incidences the kid spends the money on his training keeping someone employed. This isn’t working for nothing, it's bartering. Still taxable by the ATO as well. If the kid was doing the work and getting absolutely nothing for it, then I would have a problem.
As for Onan, he did tell us that he was working for free. So what if his employer couldn’t afford another pilot. If he couldn’t and none of the paid pilots would do the job, another company would do it and hopefully that pilot would be paid. It is the big picture I am looking at, not just the small one. This type of thing effects us all if you look at the big picture, and if more employers do it, it will come and bight us all in the b*m because in the end this industry won’t be worth working in because everyone will be working for nothing.
PS: I'll ignore the Winstun comment for what it worth and pretend you didn’t say it. OK
The "ramp rats" I refered to were doing it for training, therefore aerial work applies. I was there, I know. You were not.
Onan gave us some pretty scant details. For all we know the crews got together and asked the employer to get Onan on the job to cover them for a night off or something. Perhaps a temp is beyond this employer so it is a win/win for all. For all we know this operater does not have opposition to undercut. We just don't know. Why would you jump to the conclusion he/she is some kind of scab or something?
PS: I'll ignore the Winstun comment for what it worth and pretend you didn’t say it. OK
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Lordy have mercy....thought these two were turning this topic into a queer fest.....
Fact is, 404 is nothing more than your average transparent hypocrite with a pathetic case of self dellusional morality. If he ever had half the chance, I don't doubt he would be grovelling and undercuttting me for a seat in one of the many shiny VVIP jet positions I have held. For coin I consider nothing - but to he would consider good, much more bucks and good jet time. 
So if the kid was getting absolutely near to nothing, it would be ok? What is something good for him is nothing to you............its all relative.
Fact is, 404 is nothing more than your average transparent hypocrite with a pathetic case of self dellusional morality. If he ever had half the chance, I don't doubt he would be grovelling and undercuttting me for a seat in one of the many shiny VVIP jet positions I have held. For coin I consider nothing - but to he would consider good, much more bucks and good jet time. So if the kid was getting absolutely near to nothing, it would be ok? What is something good for him is nothing to you............its all relative.
Oh my God, the Messiah has returned. The bringer of all wisdom and truth to Pprune. He who knows everything. Let me get down on my knees and pray to the almighty “WINSTUN”.
So “Winnie the Poo”, are you going to tell us exactly what you fly at FL510. Let us all see what you are really made of? I’m guessing though it is just hot air.
So “Winnie the Poo”, are you going to tell us exactly what you fly at FL510. Let us all see what you are really made of? I’m guessing though it is just hot air.
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uhhh....wrong. Would not do time in any cold smelly cities.... I prefer sunny upmarket VIP worldwide resorts. My Aussie passport is merely for convenience (one of many). Only used for tropical vacations, property ownership, first class free medical care, and in case of northern hem. nuclear fallout. 
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I haven’t looked a Pprune for a couple of days and this is great, what an amazing wind up! Winstun as a Corporate Driver myself I think you may be expanding your position a little or a BIG package means you are easy to satisfy. RHS and FL510 limits your types quiet quickly. And the Pro Pilot salary survey and common knowledge would indicate that you may be pushing the truth a little. Most of us do Corporate for the life style not the Dollars, If I am wrong good luck to you but I am not convinced.
Also a long way from the original question guys and Gals.
jib
Also a long way from the original question guys and Gals.
jib
To get back on the track...
Working for nothing is a disgrace and this industry has seen nothing but each other undercutting "their mates", for many years.
I too, was struggling for a leg up into the industry, in the "Top End" back in 1990, with many an "89 pilot around in GA.
Ah, a challenge!
How do I maintain my drive and flair for what I love, while being "on the spot" ready for that off chance offer of a (proving) flight/charter... (hopefully under quote!
)?
We (3) started an aircraft cleaning, degreasing, wax & polish company... and mate, it took off!
Employers saw us there eager and keen, while showing some initiative!
It kept us at the airport ready for that off-chance job offer... and it did come.
Show some flair and initiative instead of stooping to the gutter and undermining our profession.
YOU/WE ARE ALL PROFESSIONALS AND ARE WORTH SOMETHING!
Working for nothing is a disgrace and this industry has seen nothing but each other undercutting "their mates", for many years.
I too, was struggling for a leg up into the industry, in the "Top End" back in 1990, with many an "89 pilot around in GA.
Ah, a challenge!
How do I maintain my drive and flair for what I love, while being "on the spot" ready for that off chance offer of a (proving) flight/charter... (hopefully under quote!
)?We (3) started an aircraft cleaning, degreasing, wax & polish company... and mate, it took off!
Employers saw us there eager and keen, while showing some initiative!
It kept us at the airport ready for that off-chance job offer... and it did come.
Show some flair and initiative instead of stooping to the gutter and undermining our profession.
YOU/WE ARE ALL PROFESSIONALS AND ARE WORTH SOMETHING!
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We must take a step back and consider what a new CPL is actually worth to a charter company.
EG: John Doe has an aviation degree and 150 hours. He left school, went straight to uni and hasn't paid a cent for any of his training. He has never had a part time job before and got a car for his birthday. He did all of his training at a large institution where flying trianing comprises 99% of the organisations business and very few instructors have actually flown charter.
His best mate now flys for the red rat after going through the cadet scheme and tells our friend John how good it is to fly as a S/O and how he will be a Captn soon.
What we have is a person with not many life skills, no business skills, no sales skills, no real work ethic, has illusions about the industry and thinks it owes him a huge salary.
I dont condone working for free. I can see the merits in putting on newbies, as they need a start somewhere. For all the guys and girls out there that think your doing it tough, think of it as a learning process, and if youve just got a job, think of it as your OWN business and think of ways that YOU can earn your company more money and in turn, YOURSELF.
Come into the industry with some experience in other fields (like sales) and realize that you will be doing it tough for a while. Show your CP why you are worth x amount of dollars per hour and make a name for yourself.
If you cant hack it, then you have just seen how `only the toughest survive' works. Its all one big culling process which is there for the dedicated only.
1723kg
EG: John Doe has an aviation degree and 150 hours. He left school, went straight to uni and hasn't paid a cent for any of his training. He has never had a part time job before and got a car for his birthday. He did all of his training at a large institution where flying trianing comprises 99% of the organisations business and very few instructors have actually flown charter.
His best mate now flys for the red rat after going through the cadet scheme and tells our friend John how good it is to fly as a S/O and how he will be a Captn soon.
What we have is a person with not many life skills, no business skills, no sales skills, no real work ethic, has illusions about the industry and thinks it owes him a huge salary.
I dont condone working for free. I can see the merits in putting on newbies, as they need a start somewhere. For all the guys and girls out there that think your doing it tough, think of it as a learning process, and if youve just got a job, think of it as your OWN business and think of ways that YOU can earn your company more money and in turn, YOURSELF.
Come into the industry with some experience in other fields (like sales) and realize that you will be doing it tough for a while. Show your CP why you are worth x amount of dollars per hour and make a name for yourself.
If you cant hack it, then you have just seen how `only the toughest survive' works. Its all one big culling process which is there for the dedicated only.
1723kg
Interesting thoughts 1723KG, but you must remember not EVERY pilot comes from the sausage factories and lot everyone has 'nothing' to offer. To a retail situation a day one 21 year old checkout chick isn't trained in the role, starts on a hourly rate equal to someone who has been doing the job for months......yet there is this 'constant' smattering that commercial operators are doing pilots a favour for letting them fly their planes for 'free'. Your not expected to work for free waving barcodes over a reader, however it's ok to do this in aviation because it's always been that way...the question is why?
Supply and Demand - or Job 'Attractiveness' ?
This thread is back where it started -why are so many people attracted to aviation? You can earn heaps more just driving a truck in the Pilbara. Cleaners on the new NW Shelf projects make more than a Skywest F/O.
I think it has much to do with being a 'clean' job - sort of outside office if you like. Sure, there's the fact that flight schools are promoting aviation, and it looks like a glam job from the bottom looking up. I don't think that anyone ever thinks that they'll reach heavy captaincy, and so, they are not really looking at the future money.
Have a look at professional sport, and the entertainment industry if you want parallels to aviation. In both of those industries, it's dog eat dog. There are no minimums, no levels to which people won't stoop to succeed, and no associations or unions helping anyone except those who've already made it. The potential rewards are staggering - far beyond what you will ever make from flying. But the success rate is very,very,very,very low. And lots of people are used up along the way.
Aviation isn't the only industry where the inexperienced have to trim their price to what the market will pay. When I started in agricultural consulting, it was very new, and I reckon that I worked 2 hrs for every 1 that I charged out. Only when clients gained confidence in my advice was I able to increase my charging, and begin to make half a living. Those at the top make a good crust, and deserve to.
What's really different in aviation?
Rather than be infighting amongst ourselves as pilots, maybe it's time to challenge the 'rosy future' advertising of the flying training industry - on the basis of truth in advertising?
cheers,
This thread is back where it started -why are so many people attracted to aviation? You can earn heaps more just driving a truck in the Pilbara. Cleaners on the new NW Shelf projects make more than a Skywest F/O.
I think it has much to do with being a 'clean' job - sort of outside office if you like. Sure, there's the fact that flight schools are promoting aviation, and it looks like a glam job from the bottom looking up. I don't think that anyone ever thinks that they'll reach heavy captaincy, and so, they are not really looking at the future money.
Have a look at professional sport, and the entertainment industry if you want parallels to aviation. In both of those industries, it's dog eat dog. There are no minimums, no levels to which people won't stoop to succeed, and no associations or unions helping anyone except those who've already made it. The potential rewards are staggering - far beyond what you will ever make from flying. But the success rate is very,very,very,very low. And lots of people are used up along the way.
Aviation isn't the only industry where the inexperienced have to trim their price to what the market will pay. When I started in agricultural consulting, it was very new, and I reckon that I worked 2 hrs for every 1 that I charged out. Only when clients gained confidence in my advice was I able to increase my charging, and begin to make half a living. Those at the top make a good crust, and deserve to.
What's really different in aviation?
Rather than be infighting amongst ourselves as pilots, maybe it's time to challenge the 'rosy future' advertising of the flying training industry - on the basis of truth in advertising?
cheers,
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My opinion
If pilots were like contractors then this thread would be point less, but pilots are generally employees, or free lancers(pun not intended).
If you want to work for free, then you are more competitive for the hours than the next bloke.
However, there are some moral employer obligations that you must force you employer to provide. If you are out bush where jobs are scarce and rent is expensive and you spend all day out at the airport then your employer has a moral obligation (My opinion) to provide accomodation and transport. The basics. Maybe even provide food. If you work in population centres and work for free your employer should help out with public transport and on the job provisions. At least in the city you can get after hours jobs!
It is down right immoral for a company to not provide anything to its employee, to take and not to give, especially in remote area or places of little community support. Some of this companies have rich owners who can afford expensive personal items. If you work for free you must atleast get by. Even if your employer wants to pay your but can't then they should use or provide what ever is in there inventory, whatever they can. Accomodation, food, transport, internet access, phone, washing machine etc. It doesn't matter.
The worst of employers are the onces who pay you nothing or next to nothing for working all-day, all week out bush and charge you for peanut expenses.
This is the basic law of charity!!!!!!!!
All those employers who fit into the above category need an ethics check.
U2
If you want to work for free, then you are more competitive for the hours than the next bloke.
However, there are some moral employer obligations that you must force you employer to provide. If you are out bush where jobs are scarce and rent is expensive and you spend all day out at the airport then your employer has a moral obligation (My opinion) to provide accomodation and transport. The basics. Maybe even provide food. If you work in population centres and work for free your employer should help out with public transport and on the job provisions. At least in the city you can get after hours jobs!
It is down right immoral for a company to not provide anything to its employee, to take and not to give, especially in remote area or places of little community support. Some of this companies have rich owners who can afford expensive personal items. If you work for free you must atleast get by. Even if your employer wants to pay your but can't then they should use or provide what ever is in there inventory, whatever they can. Accomodation, food, transport, internet access, phone, washing machine etc. It doesn't matter.
The worst of employers are the onces who pay you nothing or next to nothing for working all-day, all week out bush and charge you for peanut expenses.
This is the basic law of charity!!!!!!!!
All those employers who fit into the above category need an ethics check.
U2
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Well, well, Ladies and Gentlemen.
Amongst the high negativity surrounding our industry these days, I'm pleased to be able to shed a bit of positive light on it.
Today, my Chief Pilot told me that I will be given a pay rise. And, we're not talking just 10 or so %, but try 70%!!! Quite a change indeed. Whilst the pilots in my company don't generally complain about the below award pay, the boss claims it is merely to "help keep his operating costs down just while he builds up the business", and that eventually better days will come both for him and his pilots. I never thought I'd see the day, but hey, I have!
He also said it was derserved for my "extra efforts of late" whatever that means, but I can't say I've done anything lately which has been beyond the norm, nor have any of the other guys. We (the line pilots) came to the conclusion later that perhaps the boss was just showing his appreciation towards us, which is nice to see.
I really wish that every employer in GA could be as good as mine sometimes. Although, I am aware there are still decent ones in operation, thankfully. And not just cause of the pay rise, believe it or not. It is one of the few companies around who are willing to give first timers a go, teach them lots in the process yet not expect them to have experience beyond their years.
Hope this boosts the meagre opinions that some of you may (so rightly) have on the industry right now.
Keep at it!
520.
Amongst the high negativity surrounding our industry these days, I'm pleased to be able to shed a bit of positive light on it.
Today, my Chief Pilot told me that I will be given a pay rise. And, we're not talking just 10 or so %, but try 70%!!! Quite a change indeed. Whilst the pilots in my company don't generally complain about the below award pay, the boss claims it is merely to "help keep his operating costs down just while he builds up the business", and that eventually better days will come both for him and his pilots. I never thought I'd see the day, but hey, I have!
He also said it was derserved for my "extra efforts of late" whatever that means, but I can't say I've done anything lately which has been beyond the norm, nor have any of the other guys. We (the line pilots) came to the conclusion later that perhaps the boss was just showing his appreciation towards us, which is nice to see.
I really wish that every employer in GA could be as good as mine sometimes. Although, I am aware there are still decent ones in operation, thankfully. And not just cause of the pay rise, believe it or not. It is one of the few companies around who are willing to give first timers a go, teach them lots in the process yet not expect them to have experience beyond their years.
Hope this boosts the meagre opinions that some of you may (so rightly) have on the industry right now.
Keep at it!
520.