Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!
Nicely written Prospector. Agree with your points also.
I'm still coming to terms with the intimation put forward by 404T that for me to go and fly my companies 402/ Chieftain with eight or so souls aboard, my job is only worth $5128.20 per annum by his/her reckoning? I guess a number of GA operators would just love to hear you say that.
Intriguing analogy 404, let's run with that and disect it a little....
A few points for your consideration.... and I'll stress I'm not having a go at you, or indeed the heights of your career that you have attained, for one day myself I'd very much like to be in your shoes, but I ask you to perhaps explain why you feel my job is worth so little....
Pray tell, 404T, just what is the difference between the worth of 8 lives versus 3-400? Just what is a life worth? Ten bucks? A hundred? Ten thousand bucks? Well you must have some idea, you put it forward? My responsibility to those people who have put their lives in my hands is no different to yours.
My job keeps me down here in the nastiest (most active part of the atmosphere), bit of air to fly in, yours quite rightly takes you quite a way above. Granted, you have many other factors and possible outcomes of problems relating to higher altitude flying, and some of those would be are quite a large danger to the lives you have on board under your care. What my questions are here, is necessarily why would your job at altitude be more difficult than mine down here? Terrain is only a factor for the most part in the take-off and landing phase of your operations, while mine is a reasonably constant consideration.
We both use auto pilots, but mine can't land the damned thing for me.
You've got more than just yourself sitting in the cockpit there with you, so if a decision has to made at least you've got some form of other input to fix/find the problem. Me, I've just got me to rely upon and I'm just a human who makes his fair share of mistakes. Granted, you fly a much more complex machine than I do.
If one, and if you're in a 74', then you've still got three spare, of your propulsion units goes quiet then you still have a degree of guaranteed performance. I'm dreading the day that something may grenade on one of my wings, and with GA's prolific use of a much more flammable fuel than Jet A1/Avtur, then my risk of fire is something that I guess I'll have to try and manage in the mean time, and control the panic on board if something untoward happens in flight along those lines.
Even our regulator seems to have taken the view that my operation must provide the same level of passenger safety to what yours does. The fact that my passengers don't pay an airfare, they actually hire the whole aircraft/pilot/fuel combination makes no difference to CASA. The focus is on safety, and I'll add that my company has just as stringent a flight testing/checking policy as most airlines. I too, can lose my job if I fail a couple of times.
I guess what I'm getting at is why is your job more "responsible" than mine (and the other guys flying all around the country), in weather conditions and situations that are certainly more physically and mentally demanding, all by themselves?
As I said, 404, I'm not chucking rocks, just discussing the issues. It isn't my intention to get into a bunfight with anybody about it.
Have a good one,
OpsN.
I'm still coming to terms with the intimation put forward by 404T that for me to go and fly my companies 402/ Chieftain with eight or so souls aboard, my job is only worth $5128.20 per annum by his/her reckoning? I guess a number of GA operators would just love to hear you say that.
Intriguing analogy 404, let's run with that and disect it a little....
A few points for your consideration.... and I'll stress I'm not having a go at you, or indeed the heights of your career that you have attained, for one day myself I'd very much like to be in your shoes, but I ask you to perhaps explain why you feel my job is worth so little....
Pray tell, 404T, just what is the difference between the worth of 8 lives versus 3-400? Just what is a life worth? Ten bucks? A hundred? Ten thousand bucks? Well you must have some idea, you put it forward? My responsibility to those people who have put their lives in my hands is no different to yours.
My job keeps me down here in the nastiest (most active part of the atmosphere), bit of air to fly in, yours quite rightly takes you quite a way above. Granted, you have many other factors and possible outcomes of problems relating to higher altitude flying, and some of those would be are quite a large danger to the lives you have on board under your care. What my questions are here, is necessarily why would your job at altitude be more difficult than mine down here? Terrain is only a factor for the most part in the take-off and landing phase of your operations, while mine is a reasonably constant consideration.
We both use auto pilots, but mine can't land the damned thing for me.
You've got more than just yourself sitting in the cockpit there with you, so if a decision has to made at least you've got some form of other input to fix/find the problem. Me, I've just got me to rely upon and I'm just a human who makes his fair share of mistakes. Granted, you fly a much more complex machine than I do.
If one, and if you're in a 74', then you've still got three spare, of your propulsion units goes quiet then you still have a degree of guaranteed performance. I'm dreading the day that something may grenade on one of my wings, and with GA's prolific use of a much more flammable fuel than Jet A1/Avtur, then my risk of fire is something that I guess I'll have to try and manage in the mean time, and control the panic on board if something untoward happens in flight along those lines.
Even our regulator seems to have taken the view that my operation must provide the same level of passenger safety to what yours does. The fact that my passengers don't pay an airfare, they actually hire the whole aircraft/pilot/fuel combination makes no difference to CASA. The focus is on safety, and I'll add that my company has just as stringent a flight testing/checking policy as most airlines. I too, can lose my job if I fail a couple of times.
I guess what I'm getting at is why is your job more "responsible" than mine (and the other guys flying all around the country), in weather conditions and situations that are certainly more physically and mentally demanding, all by themselves?
As I said, 404, I'm not chucking rocks, just discussing the issues. It isn't my intention to get into a bunfight with anybody about it.
Have a good one,
OpsN.
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All comes down to Supply and Demand. Aviation there has allways been an oversupply of Pilots especially abinitio ones.
like other industries, people ten d to accept lower standards and pay to get there experience past certain margins, to get better employment in that particular field
I worked for a Parachute Mob for around 150 Hours at 10 dollars a load thats the cheapest I ve worked for.
Now it also depends in what part of the world you in. Here in the Carib Pilots do Right seat time, to get experience for Left seat. They do this for free. Sometimes for umpteen months, with no end in sight. Alot different from Australia, but that much.
Its tough out there to get a break, and sometimes, dare I say its necessary
Regards
sheep
p.s. I thought Id never say that but, after being out of oz seeing other places, thats my new stand on this matter
like other industries, people ten d to accept lower standards and pay to get there experience past certain margins, to get better employment in that particular field
I worked for a Parachute Mob for around 150 Hours at 10 dollars a load thats the cheapest I ve worked for.
Now it also depends in what part of the world you in. Here in the Carib Pilots do Right seat time, to get experience for Left seat. They do this for free. Sometimes for umpteen months, with no end in sight. Alot different from Australia, but that much.
Its tough out there to get a break, and sometimes, dare I say its necessary
Regards
sheep
p.s. I thought Id never say that but, after being out of oz seeing other places, thats my new stand on this matter
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O T C,
I am afraid I don't believe my comments are to harsh !!
It may be easy for the single guys and gals to parade around offering to work for nothing, but spare a thought for the many who are married, are parents or have been flying in GA for 20-30 years who choose to stay there.
One of my first jobs in this industry was lost after one of these scumbags offered to do my run for nothing !! My wife was 5 months pregnant with our first child at the time. He had no regard for my family or myself, he just wanted the hours and was prepared to do anything to get them.
These people are the sort who would sell a lifejacket to a drowning man. They are vermin.
But as the point was made earlier my boss was equally at fault for accepting his pathetic offer.
Just for the record most of the pilots I have met over the years haven't had to work for nothing. It always amazes me though, that the ones who scream and complain the most in my company when the new EBA comes out are the ones who flew for nothing.
Doesn't it make you laugh !!
I am afraid I don't believe my comments are to harsh !!
It may be easy for the single guys and gals to parade around offering to work for nothing, but spare a thought for the many who are married, are parents or have been flying in GA for 20-30 years who choose to stay there.
One of my first jobs in this industry was lost after one of these scumbags offered to do my run for nothing !! My wife was 5 months pregnant with our first child at the time. He had no regard for my family or myself, he just wanted the hours and was prepared to do anything to get them.
These people are the sort who would sell a lifejacket to a drowning man. They are vermin.
But as the point was made earlier my boss was equally at fault for accepting his pathetic offer.
Just for the record most of the pilots I have met over the years haven't had to work for nothing. It always amazes me though, that the ones who scream and complain the most in my company when the new EBA comes out are the ones who flew for nothing.
Doesn't it make you laugh !!
OpsNormal
You have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The intent of my post was never to devalue your job or any G.A. driver. It was the complete opposite. Have a look at my handle and it is quite clear where my roots lie. I too did it hard in G.A. I did my time in the bush, PNG and FNQ. I have worked for some employers that I wouldn’t spit on if I came across them in the street and I have also worked for some great companies. My point was that trying to flatten the salary structure between G.A. and the airlines is pie in the sky stuff. It is purely supply and demand. Maybe when you get yourself into my position you will understand where I am coming from. By the way, the responsibility that goes with this job could be argued in the context that if I stuffed up, how much the insurance companies would have to pay out to the families of the victims and how much my employer would be sued.
You have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The intent of my post was never to devalue your job or any G.A. driver. It was the complete opposite. Have a look at my handle and it is quite clear where my roots lie. I too did it hard in G.A. I did my time in the bush, PNG and FNQ. I have worked for some employers that I wouldn’t spit on if I came across them in the street and I have also worked for some great companies. My point was that trying to flatten the salary structure between G.A. and the airlines is pie in the sky stuff. It is purely supply and demand. Maybe when you get yourself into my position you will understand where I am coming from. By the way, the responsibility that goes with this job could be argued in the context that if I stuffed up, how much the insurance companies would have to pay out to the families of the victims and how much my employer would be sued.
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but spare a thought for the many who are married, are parents or have been flying in GA for 20-30 years who choose to stay there.
Give me a friggin bone.
He had no regard for my family or myself, he just wanted the hours and was prepared to do anything to get them.
I'm gonna friggin cry...
Doesn't it make you laugh !!
and I'm sure you really care
404 finally got something right. It is supply and demand and what the market accepts, period. Unions are only collective self interest. Any pilot that wants to make it should utilize whatever assets they have, and do whatever it takes. Frankly I find some of these prentend socialist types rather nauseating.....and boring. On the one hand they say not work for free, and the other they work for peanuts (in my book). Life is all about self interest and looking out for number 1. Anybody that prentends otherwise is a liar. Its not hard to pole a 747, Polar pilots are in the LHS after 1-2 years on first and only jet type. Pax market demands some more experience for insurance and bad publicity position if screw up occurs with 'lower' timer (mass media ignorance). You mainly get paid on whether you will make the front page and how bad its gonna look / company can bear from market and its mostly the type of load not the amount, why US F500 corporate is good coin and middle eastern hajj charter is not.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Aha, my old old friend, wise Winstun. I do agree with one of your quips - "Unions are only collective self interest." - and as one who espouses that " Life is all about self interest and looking out for number 1.", I assume that YOU would agree the best way for each and every one of us to COLLECTIVELY further promote ourselves would be to join a union. 
However you show yourself (once again, Winnie) to be something of an enigma
when you state on the one hand
but then counter that with
Make your mind up, Winstun..."utilize whatever assets they have".....but then demand a high salary!!??
If I may draw an analogy or two, as to why some pilots are paid more than others.
Looking to buy a used car, there are thousands on the market - as a matter of fact, you probably could pick one up for nothing, but then you know what you can expect when you get it for FREE, and its reliability probability.
As another example, you decide to eat out...now the chance of getting a free meal is pretty remote, but at the lower end of the food chain there is always McDonalds.
Some operators would probably love to pay their employees more, IF they had the revenue to allow them to do so - which airlines DO have.
I worked for a G.A. operator - Hazeltons - who successfully ran a business of more than 23 aircraft with a management and combined office staff of no more than 10 people for over 35 years, but now work for an airline with only 9 aircraft and an office staff of 3 times that number, because the revenue supports them.
Wasteful? Yes. But then again, this is a "low cost" airline, where the plethora of "management" are continually trying to further reduce other staffs conditions to support their (unnecessary) employment.
However you show yourself (once again, Winnie) to be something of an enigma
when you state on the one hand
Any pilot that wants to make it should utilize whatever assets they have, and do whatever it takes.
On the one hand they say not work for free, and the other they work for peanuts (in my book).
If I may draw an analogy or two, as to why some pilots are paid more than others.
Looking to buy a used car, there are thousands on the market - as a matter of fact, you probably could pick one up for nothing, but then you know what you can expect when you get it for FREE, and its reliability probability.
As another example, you decide to eat out...now the chance of getting a free meal is pretty remote, but at the lower end of the food chain there is always McDonalds.
Some operators would probably love to pay their employees more, IF they had the revenue to allow them to do so - which airlines DO have.
I worked for a G.A. operator - Hazeltons - who successfully ran a business of more than 23 aircraft with a management and combined office staff of no more than 10 people for over 35 years, but now work for an airline with only 9 aircraft and an office staff of 3 times that number, because the revenue supports them.
Wasteful? Yes. But then again, this is a "low cost" airline, where the plethora of "management" are continually trying to further reduce other staffs conditions to support their (unnecessary) employment.
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Assume wrong Kaptin. Got your blinkers on again I see.
Yes, I say do whatever it takes, whether that mean getting a mama and working for free, working peanuts, etc.. to get experience, ratings. Unions are for pussies and kind of NOT relevant in Australia these days. Reason I am at the top and get the big bucks is cause I have struggled, I have moved up, I get to know the right people, the right people like me, and I know how to sell myself. I don't demand a high salary, I get given it cause thats the price today between said buyer and said seller. I have been in the gutter many times in life and it is character building and good for you. Kind of fun too....
Fortune 500 CEOs pay top dollar and don't want no union wus up front goin into Cali on dark stormy night. Kaptin, your anologies are ridiculous Snap out of it and stop trying to hold back the ambitious.
Yes, I say do whatever it takes, whether that mean getting a mama and working for free, working peanuts, etc.. to get experience, ratings. Unions are for pussies and kind of NOT relevant in Australia these days.
Reason I am at the top and get the big bucks is cause I have struggled, I have moved up, I get to know the right people, the right people like me, and I know how to sell myself. I don't demand a high salary, I get given it cause thats the price today between said buyer and said seller. I have been in the gutter many times in life and it is character building and good for you. Kind of fun too.... Fortune 500 CEOs pay top dollar and don't want no union wus up front goin into Cali on dark stormy night. Kaptin, your anologies are ridiculous Snap out of it and stop trying to hold back the ambitious.
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I have never and will never work for free!!
Any person that has worked for free should be black listed for future jobs.
Low income is allright to gain your experience but NEVER NEVER for free.
I have meet a couple of pilots that do and have worked for free and I found them to be the most unreliable back stabbing bunch out there, I am sure that doens't apply to all but that's my experience.
I almost had a job Bank running but the boss admitted he would love to hire me but the unwritten company policy was to pay nothing for a while then you get a small pay packet, in fact people paided the company for to be able to fly co-joe!
So if they can get a pilot with no time to pay the company 10-20 bucks an hour to be balast in the aircraft then why would they hire me.
He did agree that if you pay with bananas you get monkeys.
So to all you operators out there not paying, or paying below what the dole would pay, pull your head in and get with the program.
If you don't pay the pilot you get some dimwit that wrecks your machine, is only interested in furthering his/her carreer with no interest in helping the company, will leave at the slightest sniff of another job, and would be the most likely person to give CASA a call when he left to stick in your ribs for treating you like ****.
This problem needs to be resolved by CASA and the Government, sure we can do trainee ships, where you get paid stuff all, but at the end of the term the comany must be obligated to pay and pay big time.
Just my two cents, I am sure I steps on a few toes out there, but hey tht's what forums are all about!!
Any person that has worked for free should be black listed for future jobs.
Low income is allright to gain your experience but NEVER NEVER for free.
I have meet a couple of pilots that do and have worked for free and I found them to be the most unreliable back stabbing bunch out there, I am sure that doens't apply to all but that's my experience.
I almost had a job Bank running but the boss admitted he would love to hire me but the unwritten company policy was to pay nothing for a while then you get a small pay packet, in fact people paided the company for to be able to fly co-joe!
So if they can get a pilot with no time to pay the company 10-20 bucks an hour to be balast in the aircraft then why would they hire me.
He did agree that if you pay with bananas you get monkeys.
So to all you operators out there not paying, or paying below what the dole would pay, pull your head in and get with the program.
If you don't pay the pilot you get some dimwit that wrecks your machine, is only interested in furthering his/her carreer with no interest in helping the company, will leave at the slightest sniff of another job, and would be the most likely person to give CASA a call when he left to stick in your ribs for treating you like ****.
This problem needs to be resolved by CASA and the Government, sure we can do trainee ships, where you get paid stuff all, but at the end of the term the comany must be obligated to pay and pay big time.
Just my two cents, I am sure I steps on a few toes out there, but hey tht's what forums are all about!!
We’ve come a long way in a page and a half in PPRuNe – and as usual, mostly lost the original plot!
From…………
Ang 737: ….happy to work for free….
To……………
404 Titan: ….$250,000.00 a year for a B747 skipper…
We’ve had the odd ancient history and political lesson….
Kaptin M: …is through a strong pilots' union…
And the odd economics lesson……
Winstun: ….why US F500 corporate is good coin…..
With only two factual statements:
404 Titan: “It is purely supply and demand”. Never a truer word was spoke!
And:
Winstun: I have been in the gutter many times in life….
Me too mate, but I’ve always been able to at least crawl home! And I don’t brag about it!
From…………
Ang 737: ….happy to work for free….
To……………
404 Titan: ….$250,000.00 a year for a B747 skipper…
We’ve had the odd ancient history and political lesson….
Kaptin M: …is through a strong pilots' union…
And the odd economics lesson……
Winstun: ….why US F500 corporate is good coin…..
With only two factual statements:
404 Titan: “It is purely supply and demand”. Never a truer word was spoke!
And:
Winstun: I have been in the gutter many times in life….
Me too mate, but I’ve always been able to at least crawl home! And I don’t brag about it!
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Stop the train and let me Off!
As Torres said, funny how the original question has been overlooked and we've become sidetracked.... Nothing unusual I guess.
Back to the original post. To each his/her own, let's look at it from both sides.
1. New CPL- sits at home, drives taxis, works at McDonalds etc and sends out 100 resumes to each and every operator. Has to spend money to stay current hoping that Mr GA will call one day.
2. New CPL- becomes proactive and offers to do occasional aircraft ferrying, local scenics etc and may not get paid. He/she too is sending resumes, but importantly gains experience outside that gained from flying training (which falls short of the mark required in the big bad world)
The Pilot described in point 2 is proactive, dedicated and has perserverance. They both spent 40K plus to get their basic CPL, but rather than be self righteous and too high and mighty, pilot number 2 is making something for themselves.
As an operator, I would rather hire Pilot number 2 any day. Pilot 1 tends to become bitter as they have spent money and expects the red carpet treatment and to a certain extend think that the sun shines out of their a#se.
I don't condone operators who take advantage of this, I for one don't. What does make a difference is when i recieve resumes, I look carefully at what the person did after they got their CPL.
Fancy degrees and colourful 20 page resumes don't say much for a person. As someone said in a previous post, it is the work ethic and loyalty which are the qualities I look for.
Back to the original post. To each his/her own, let's look at it from both sides.
1. New CPL- sits at home, drives taxis, works at McDonalds etc and sends out 100 resumes to each and every operator. Has to spend money to stay current hoping that Mr GA will call one day.
2. New CPL- becomes proactive and offers to do occasional aircraft ferrying, local scenics etc and may not get paid. He/she too is sending resumes, but importantly gains experience outside that gained from flying training (which falls short of the mark required in the big bad world)
The Pilot described in point 2 is proactive, dedicated and has perserverance. They both spent 40K plus to get their basic CPL, but rather than be self righteous and too high and mighty, pilot number 2 is making something for themselves.
As an operator, I would rather hire Pilot number 2 any day. Pilot 1 tends to become bitter as they have spent money and expects the red carpet treatment and to a certain extend think that the sun shines out of their a#se.
I don't condone operators who take advantage of this, I for one don't. What does make a difference is when i recieve resumes, I look carefully at what the person did after they got their CPL.
Fancy degrees and colourful 20 page resumes don't say much for a person. As someone said in a previous post, it is the work ethic and loyalty which are the qualities I look for.
Some may think working for nothing will give them that foot in the door they need. It may in the short term. Others including myself think that in the long run it has the potential of being more of a hindrance than anything else. There are many companies out there that frown on people and companies that participate in this type of practice. There are two main reasons why they do:
1. Reputable companies realize that for most people that work in the aviation industry it is a career not a hobby. As such they need to earn an income to support themselves and their families. If someone is going to offer their services for free this just erodes the conditions for everyone in the industry.
2. Reputable companies realize they often can’t compete with companies that have employees working for nothing or worse paying to gain hours. They miss out on contracts and jobs, which in turn threatens their very survival.
In my previous job as Chief Pilot of a charter company I use to ask aspiring new pilots how they got their first piloting job and if they had ever worked for nothing. If they had they were shown the door. At my own interview with my current employer (CX) I was asked the same question. I have since become good friends with one of the guys that interviewed me and I asked him why that question. His reply was that he (not the company) doesn’t like people that work for nothing. It was his view and many on the interview panel that one should be paid fairly for a fair days work. Remember that those that conduct the interviews are mostly line pilots, not management, and as such may be very opinionated about pilots that work for nothing and those companies that exploit them.
1. Reputable companies realize that for most people that work in the aviation industry it is a career not a hobby. As such they need to earn an income to support themselves and their families. If someone is going to offer their services for free this just erodes the conditions for everyone in the industry.
2. Reputable companies realize they often can’t compete with companies that have employees working for nothing or worse paying to gain hours. They miss out on contracts and jobs, which in turn threatens their very survival.
In my previous job as Chief Pilot of a charter company I use to ask aspiring new pilots how they got their first piloting job and if they had ever worked for nothing. If they had they were shown the door. At my own interview with my current employer (CX) I was asked the same question. I have since become good friends with one of the guys that interviewed me and I asked him why that question. His reply was that he (not the company) doesn’t like people that work for nothing. It was his view and many on the interview panel that one should be paid fairly for a fair days work. Remember that those that conduct the interviews are mostly line pilots, not management, and as such may be very opinionated about pilots that work for nothing and those companies that exploit them.
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Torres are you suggesting that I am happy to work for? If you read back I was the one to start this thread because of the increasing amount of scabs in this industry.
I totally agree that the low lifes of the industry that will eventually come undone should be black listed. I also think that the operators that employ them should be black listed.
Wasn't this one of the reasons the crash happened at Lake Evalla last year. I believe that one of the reasons the accident happened was that the pilots were not entering issues in the MR as this would have grounded their aircraft and they wouldnt be paid. Lets get fair dinkum this is a safety issue...
Ang
I totally agree that the low lifes of the industry that will eventually come undone should be black listed. I also think that the operators that employ them should be black listed.
Wasn't this one of the reasons the crash happened at Lake Evalla last year. I believe that one of the reasons the accident happened was that the pilots were not entering issues in the MR as this would have grounded their aircraft and they wouldnt be paid. Lets get fair dinkum this is a safety issue...
Ang
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
O.K. guys (and ladies) - IF you agree to fly for free, WHEN will it stop?
After you get 1,000 hours command on a B744?
Winstun, you're a [email protected] then I didn't need to tell you that!!
And btw, I get my home accomodation and transport to/from work PLUS a BIG salary as a fully paid up union pussy....while you sit around on a 24-7 callout basis with NO free time, for a LOT less!
But then that's probably because you can qualify for only (a miserable) 5 ATP's........and as an f/o at that!! Oh yes, someone has spilled the beans about you, Winsie.
After you get 1,000 hours command on a B744?
Winstun, you're a [email protected] then I didn't need to tell you that!!
And btw, I get my home accomodation and transport to/from work PLUS a BIG salary as a fully paid up union pussy....while you sit around on a 24-7 callout basis with NO free time, for a LOT less!
But then that's probably because you can qualify for only (a miserable) 5 ATP's........and as an f/o at that!! Oh yes, someone has spilled the beans about you, Winsie.
plear crop,
I find it hard to understand your logic. Let me give you my impression of the two pilots you have just described.
Pilot number one has probably just spent upward of $40k and realises that the only way he is going to make some money to pay for the necessities in life while he looks around for the GOOD operator that will pay him what he is worth (WHICH ISN'T $0) decides to go out and do some hard yards in the Taxi or McDonalds, Night Fill etc. to get some money together to go off and hunt for that first flying job. He has made a commitment not to be screwed by employers that are more than happy to take advantage of him.
While Pilot number two somehow has no need for money - probably he's just living off credit. He walks up to an operator with the offer of working for nothing - the operator sees a way to lower his costs and hey presto pilot 2 has taken the easy way out while at the same time ripping a possible paid job from under a pilot that deserves it more.
"it is the work ethic and loyalty which are the qualities I look for."
How many "ethics" with regard to work does someone has who works for free? And LOYALTY???????
I find it hard to understand your logic. Let me give you my impression of the two pilots you have just described.
Pilot number one has probably just spent upward of $40k and realises that the only way he is going to make some money to pay for the necessities in life while he looks around for the GOOD operator that will pay him what he is worth (WHICH ISN'T $0) decides to go out and do some hard yards in the Taxi or McDonalds, Night Fill etc. to get some money together to go off and hunt for that first flying job. He has made a commitment not to be screwed by employers that are more than happy to take advantage of him.
While Pilot number two somehow has no need for money - probably he's just living off credit. He walks up to an operator with the offer of working for nothing - the operator sees a way to lower his costs and hey presto pilot 2 has taken the easy way out while at the same time ripping a possible paid job from under a pilot that deserves it more.
"it is the work ethic and loyalty which are the qualities I look for."
How many "ethics" with regard to work does someone has who works for free? And LOYALTY???????
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Simply put, working for ZILCH is a cop out........it's the EASY way out!!
It's easy to undercut your competiton when you feel that you can't compete with them on an EQUAL basis, by offering to work for FREE!!
You have now put a realistic price on YOUR OWN true worth! ZILCH......ZERO.............NADA.
Can anyone have any lower self-esteem??!!!
...What do YOU think you are worth?? -----NOTHING!!
Ahh, Winstun..yes son, well we REALLY like YOU...and NOW'S the chance for YOU to fly for US - this'll pay BIG dividends years from now ...'cause you'll be able to say that YOU flew for FORTUNE 500 execs for peanuts, to get to where you are (crawling around the gutter!!).
Winnie - ol' chum - airlines don't give a rat's (arse) about WHOM you flew aound, only WHAT (aircraft type, and for how many hours!!). I flew exec charter for a while, but quite frankly it cut too much into my social life, for too little reward - "too little reward" being a comparative thing, as my final target was airlines, and not a notch on a sapling that really meant nothing in the forest of aviation, which is where you are at right now.
"Dark, stormy nights into Cali"...a piece of p!ss, and hardly worth mentioning in the overall worldwide scheme of aviation in most cases - unless YOU found it particularly testing, Winnie, which you most OBVIOUSLY did!!
Hang in there son - if only just!
It's easy to undercut your competiton when you feel that you can't compete with them on an EQUAL basis, by offering to work for FREE!!
You have now put a realistic price on YOUR OWN true worth! ZILCH......ZERO.............NADA.
Can anyone have any lower self-esteem??!!!
...What do YOU think you are worth?? -----NOTHING!!
Ahh, Winstun..yes son, well we REALLY like YOU...and NOW'S the chance for YOU to fly for US - this'll pay BIG dividends years from now
...'cause you'll be able to say that YOU flew for FORTUNE 500 execs for peanuts, to get to where you are (crawling around the gutter!!).Winnie - ol' chum - airlines don't give a rat's (arse) about WHOM you flew aound, only WHAT (aircraft type, and for how many hours!!). I flew exec charter for a while, but quite frankly it cut too much into my social life, for too little reward - "too little reward" being a comparative thing, as my final target was airlines, and not a notch on a sapling that really meant nothing in the forest of aviation, which is where you are at right now.
"Dark, stormy nights into Cali"...a piece of p!ss, and hardly worth mentioning in the overall worldwide scheme of aviation in most cases - unless YOU found it particularly testing, Winnie, which you most OBVIOUSLY did!!
Hang in there son - if only just!
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Kaptin as normal, you are desperately clutching at the shadows..... Your ridiculous assumptions are amusement to the viewers.........however you are an embarassment to the industry. Your dellusion that corporate is a 24-7 on call deal is not uncommon but not correct. Exec charter is the dregs of corporate (for people that have low hours or dont cut the big time). Kind of similar to geting some airline hajj time. I know a lot of airline pilots and very few would have as good coin, schedule, and free time as my bizjet buddies. In fact, many airline pilots aspire to get onto a F500 piece, but mostly don't cut the mustard cause they got their head up ass and can't think quick enough in 'rocketships' goin into unfamiliar ports. Unless they had previous bizjet time, then they know the deal.
So you are saying after all these years, operators comin back over and over to get machines wrecked, disinterested pilots, and CASA squealers...... Kaptin, your BIG salary I would likely consider peanuts, it's all relative. Now, I don't whine about people like you lowering the standards. Plus I don't think you are really qualified to be giving employment advice after your historical bo-bo And look where it got you...mundane driving living overpopulated concrete jungle, while I fly the latest and live it up in top class resort style, never on call. 
Get tired of this 'ethics' drivel being pushed onto aspiring aviators. Many that espout such, have rich dada and in no hurry to get job and hours with future trust account accumulating interest. Others are already in cushy job or envious of seeing people move up a lot faster than they did...."cause I did it tough, you gotta too...
WR, your stories are cute but you don't get what you deserve in life. (please ask the 30,000 kids that die daily). where are your ethics?
Agreed. But maybe you would like to mention that to relatives of dead pax killed by airline pilots discussing union issues on descent into mountain - instead of monitoring radio nav aids and situational awareness. And there was no weather.
Your ridiculous assumptions are amusement to the viewers.........however you are an embarassment to the industry. Your dellusion that corporate is a 24-7 on call deal is not uncommon but not correct. Exec charter is the dregs of corporate (for people that have low hours or dont cut the big time). Kind of similar to geting some airline hajj time. I know a lot of airline pilots and very few would have as good coin, schedule, and free time as my bizjet buddies. In fact, many airline pilots aspire to get onto a F500 piece, but mostly don't cut the mustard cause they got their head up ass and can't think quick enough in 'rocketships' goin into unfamiliar ports. Unless they had previous bizjet time, then they know the deal.
If you don't pay the pilot you get some dimwit that wrecks your machine, is only interested in furthering his/her carreer with no interest in helping the company, will leave at the slightest sniff of another job, and would be the most likely person to give CASA a call when he left to stick in your ribs for treating you like ****.
Kaptin, your BIG salary I would likely consider peanuts, it's all relative. Now, I don't whine about people like you lowering the standards. Plus I don't think you are really qualified to be giving employment advice after your historical bo-bo And look where it got you...mundane driving living overpopulated concrete jungle, while I fly the latest and live it up in top class resort style, never on call. Get tired of this 'ethics' drivel being pushed onto aspiring aviators. Many that espout such, have rich dada and in no hurry to get job and hours with future trust account accumulating interest. Others are already in cushy job or envious of seeing people move up a lot faster than they did...."cause I did it tough, you gotta too... WR, your stories are cute but you don't get what you deserve in life. (please ask the 30,000 kids that die daily). where are your ethics?
"Dark, stormy nights into Cali"...a piece of p!ss, and hardly worth mentioning
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Umm, intersting points.
When are KaptainM and Winstun going to have a live debate about ..... everything on the net. Would make great viewing!
Winstun, the unions are the only thing that has protected what little there is left of the conditions of drivers. The downturn in union strength in this country and the world over combined with supply and demand factors recently is why the profession is now, paywise, more like a trade. Our union fore fathers would turn in their graves.
I admit, the action of unions everywhere, often leaves a lot to be desired, but hey, it is all we have got.
And no, I am not a member, being a casual GA driver at the bottom of the heap, there is not much point.
As far as introducing a flatter pay system between Airline/GA-never going to happen!
I remember being in a pub one time with a good mate who is also a driver. We were chatting up a couple of lovelies and they asked what we do for a crust.
My mate said, "I am unemployed".
She asked, "What do you do all day then?"
He replied, "OH, I have a full time hobby that makes me almost enough money to live on".
Time to forget about the hobby and get a real job, me thinks??
Boney
When are KaptainM and Winstun going to have a live debate about ..... everything on the net. Would make great viewing!
Winstun, the unions are the only thing that has protected what little there is left of the conditions of drivers. The downturn in union strength in this country and the world over combined with supply and demand factors recently is why the profession is now, paywise, more like a trade. Our union fore fathers would turn in their graves.
I admit, the action of unions everywhere, often leaves a lot to be desired, but hey, it is all we have got.
And no, I am not a member, being a casual GA driver at the bottom of the heap, there is not much point.
As far as introducing a flatter pay system between Airline/GA-never going to happen!
I remember being in a pub one time with a good mate who is also a driver. We were chatting up a couple of lovelies and they asked what we do for a crust.
My mate said, "I am unemployed".
She asked, "What do you do all day then?"
He replied, "OH, I have a full time hobby that makes me almost enough money to live on".
Time to forget about the hobby and get a real job, me thinks??
Boney
Ang, I was not suggesting you condone working for free. I was simply adding a little humour by extracting from posts, out of context, to demonstrate how threads wander way off line.
My opinion is posted early in the thread. I don't criticise the newbie CPL holder considering, in frustration after many job knock backs, working for free.
But I consider it appalling that any operator would take advantage of a newbie CPL by expecting they (or any employee) should work for free, or amongst remote area operators, expect "freebie" pilots to live in run down caravans or even one case I know, in the back of a utility.
I could understand it if that operator maybe pocketed his ill gotten bonus (or bought the troops a carton of p!ss on Fridays), but what always happens is that unscrupulous operator cuts his prices to below economically viable rates and forces the legitimate operator down the road, out of business.
Seen that scenario far, far too often! And if I could name operators with impunity to PPRuNe I would.
And if a few operators, past and present in the Torres Strait and Cape York (and elsewhere) feel uncomfortable at my words, I don't believe you deserve the right to employ hard working Australians.
My opinion is posted early in the thread. I don't criticise the newbie CPL holder considering, in frustration after many job knock backs, working for free.
But I consider it appalling that any operator would take advantage of a newbie CPL by expecting they (or any employee) should work for free, or amongst remote area operators, expect "freebie" pilots to live in run down caravans or even one case I know, in the back of a utility.
I could understand it if that operator maybe pocketed his ill gotten bonus (or bought the troops a carton of p!ss on Fridays), but what always happens is that unscrupulous operator cuts his prices to below economically viable rates and forces the legitimate operator down the road, out of business.
Seen that scenario far, far too often! And if I could name operators with impunity to PPRuNe I would.
And if a few operators, past and present in the Torres Strait and Cape York (and elsewhere) feel uncomfortable at my words, I don't believe you deserve the right to employ hard working Australians.