Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!
I would assume the person you were talking to logically finds it cheaper to work for free, than to hire an aircraft by the hour, for 250 hours, to bridge the gap.
Each to their own. I don't condone the practice, but for many it may be their only perceived option.
You're right. The subject has been done to death.
Each to their own. I don't condone the practice, but for many it may be their only perceived option.
You're right. The subject has been done to death.
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Prospector you miss the point. Thats the whole reason why one shouldn't work for free... Why would you pay upwards of 50K to get a licence and get no immediate return... Madness
I don't believe Prospector was endorsing or condoning the practice of working for free. Neither was I. To the contrary, I am appalled that any operator would take advantage of a new pilot (not to mention transgressing State and Federal IR laws), by imposing a work for free condition. (Thus I may add, also avoiding Superannuation and Worker's Compensation liabilities, both of which are wage based.)
I can understand your mate considering working for free if he/she sees that as their only alternative to a career - especially "after paying an exuberant amount for their training..."
Despite the lack of a question mark, I believe your primary question was:
"....why on earth would someone intentionally work for free."
The replies from Prospector and I both addressed that question.
Your only other question appears to be:
"What other industry does that Answer None..."
To the contrary, it is far more prevalent in many industries than you may think, but is variously disguised as "familiarisation", "work experience", "probation" and a myriad of other terms. Ask any IR Inspector. Even the main stream airline industry is not imune; ask any of 16,000 ex Ansett employees who probably worked for significant periods of time with rapidly diminishing chances of ever seeing even the smallest dividend on their labours.
Now, who missed the point?
I can understand your mate considering working for free if he/she sees that as their only alternative to a career - especially "after paying an exuberant amount for their training..."
Despite the lack of a question mark, I believe your primary question was:
"....why on earth would someone intentionally work for free."
The replies from Prospector and I both addressed that question.
Your only other question appears to be:
"What other industry does that Answer None..."
To the contrary, it is far more prevalent in many industries than you may think, but is variously disguised as "familiarisation", "work experience", "probation" and a myriad of other terms. Ask any IR Inspector. Even the main stream airline industry is not imune; ask any of 16,000 ex Ansett employees who probably worked for significant periods of time with rapidly diminishing chances of ever seeing even the smallest dividend on their labours.
Now, who missed the point?
torres - with you right up till the Ansett comment - not sure how that fits with the topic??
If you need to start up another... "Ex-Ansett and upset"... thread.
The question for the individuals who believe in working for free is - at what point does one ask to be paid?
Surely this day must come. But for those who decide to work for free how does one transition from the amateur to the professional occur??
Do they wake up one morning and say "...I'm pretty good at this, I think I'll turn pro!!"
If you need to start up another... "Ex-Ansett and upset"... thread.
The question for the individuals who believe in working for free is - at what point does one ask to be paid?
Surely this day must come. But for those who decide to work for free how does one transition from the amateur to the professional occur??
Do they wake up one morning and say "...I'm pretty good at this, I think I'll turn pro!!"
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Working for free probably crossed all our minds at some point in time. I think the question could be "How can we prevent companies etc 'hiring' people, and not paying them." Rather than why would someone work for free. I dunno so much about the IR, but is there a way to stop this at the hirer end?
manamana. Spot on! 
The problem is not the little guy who, having invested $40,000 plus in a brand new license, sees there is no other way to start his career other than working for free.
The problem is those operators who capitalise on the situation by expecting newbie pilots to work for free.
When do I think is the day from which I should be paid? The day I start work. But I am not prepared to criticise those who feel they have no other option.
The problem is not the little guy who, having invested $40,000 plus in a brand new license, sees there is no other way to start his career other than working for free.
The problem is those operators who capitalise on the situation by expecting newbie pilots to work for free.
When do I think is the day from which I should be paid? The day I start work. But I am not prepared to criticise those who feel they have no other option.
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Perhaps what i'm about to say may sound harsh, i am a pilot thats paid my own way and lived on GA wages just like most here.
Personally i'd never employ a pilot that had worked for free, if all employers had this attitude it would send a clear message to those willing to undermine the rest of us.
As an employer it is hard enough making a company viable with out some operator down the airport being able to beat your rates by $30-50 per hour because his pilots do not draw a wage, to hell with that !.
Hours are a lot less important than having the right work ethic.
Personally i'd never employ a pilot that had worked for free, if all employers had this attitude it would send a clear message to those willing to undermine the rest of us.
As an employer it is hard enough making a company viable with out some operator down the airport being able to beat your rates by $30-50 per hour because his pilots do not draw a wage, to hell with that !.
Hours are a lot less important than having the right work ethic.
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Not saying that i condone it either but if you or me dont do it there will always be someone else to do it.
Do you think this is better or worse than paying for command/ICUS ???
Do you think this is better or worse than paying for command/ICUS ???
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One Dollar,
my logic is that if the "next pilot" knows he will be reducing his\her further career prospects perhaps they'll think twice before flying for free. excepting of course air cadets \ scouts.
my logic is that if the "next pilot" knows he will be reducing his\her further career prospects perhaps they'll think twice before flying for free. excepting of course air cadets \ scouts.
I'matightbastard
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What other industry does that ?
Borg - your comments are a little harsh I think. For lots of people it IS the only route, though I agree it shouldn't be. As has been said earlier, compared to paying for training it's a much better deal and perhaps that's where the answer lies, in considering it as such.
Now a confession. I'm hauling freight - for free - BUT, I get to do it part time as and when I want, I think it's good experience (Cessna 402) and I started by doing an SIC time building so compared to what I paid for that, the work for free seems like not such a bad deal really. There'll come a day though as it must for everyone who does this where I'll say "Enough" it's time to get some dough for this.
And here's a thought I've wanted to post for a while and never dared. How ridiculous is it for someone to get $250,000 a year working two weeks a month flying big iron across the ocean? I don't begrudge them though as they're only making up for all the time they flew freight for free. What we really need is a fairer, flatter system so that you don't have to work for nothing/crumbs after investing a small house in your career, say start at $40,000 and bump it up to $100,000.
There, I've said it. I'll probably get banned now.
For lots of people it IS the only route
It's only because its the route (or should that be root) that they choose to take. There are jobs out there for bare CPL's that do pay, and I've found it's generally those who think they can get an easy ride to the "top" of aviation who go for the fly for free, or worse (I think) pay to fly scams.
It's that kind of sh*t that has contributed to the very ordinary state of today's industry.
Onan the Clumsy
What a load of BS. Just for your information in those two weeks the airline pretty much burns out the hours I am legally allowed to fly. I am always up near the maximum hours that I can fly in one year. Just because I don't do a million sectors doen't mean longhaul is not much work. I suggest that in future if you don't know what you are talking about keep your mouth shut.
And here's a thought I've wanted to post for a while and never dared. How ridiculous is it for someone to get $250,000 a year working two weeks a month flying big iron across the ocean? I don't begrudge them though as they're only making up for all the time they flew freight for free. What we really need is a fairer, flatter system so that you don't have to work for nothing/crumbs after investing a small house in your career, say start at $40,000 and bump it up to $100,000.
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404Titan
Why so viscious? I thought Onan made an interesting suggestion.
Why couldn't the structure be flatter? The way pay & conditions are going, $100g will be the top capt's pay soon, anyway.
Would be interesting to see the result if the lure of big money was reduced.
At what point do you stop flying because you love it, and start flying for the money?
Why so viscious? I thought Onan made an interesting suggestion.
Why couldn't the structure be flatter? The way pay & conditions are going, $100g will be the top capt's pay soon, anyway.
Would be interesting to see the result if the lure of big money was reduced.
At what point do you stop flying because you love it, and start flying for the money?
ferris
So you say we should make the system flatter. How flat do you want to make it? If you are driving 400 ton B747 with 390 lives on board you have a hell of a lot more responsibility than a person who drives around a 3.2 ton C402 or a 3.8 ton C404 with 8-10 lives on board. We are paid for the responsibility that goes with the job. Just like you are paid well or should be paid well for being an ATCO. If we were paid for the number of lives we have on board or the weight of the aircraft, we would be paid over a million dollars a year. This would not be sustainable thought but $250000.00 a year for a B747 skipper or similar in my view is very reasonable. Have a look at the pay packets of other professionals. You will find that airline pilots by comparison aren’t even in the running.
So you say we should make the system flatter. How flat do you want to make it? If you are driving 400 ton B747 with 390 lives on board you have a hell of a lot more responsibility than a person who drives around a 3.2 ton C402 or a 3.8 ton C404 with 8-10 lives on board. We are paid for the responsibility that goes with the job. Just like you are paid well or should be paid well for being an ATCO. If we were paid for the number of lives we have on board or the weight of the aircraft, we would be paid over a million dollars a year. This would not be sustainable thought but $250000.00 a year for a B747 skipper or similar in my view is very reasonable. Have a look at the pay packets of other professionals. You will find that airline pilots by comparison aren’t even in the running.
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404Titan
I didn't say we should make the system flatter. Just interested to hear peoples thoughts on the matter. I am not saying you don't deserve X dollars for flying a 74, in fact your argument about relative responsibilty compared to other professionals is a good one (but that could also be used against you).
I think Onan was talking about flattening the structure . I know that ATC has a much flatter structure than piloting. Is that a good thing? I'd say, yes. You asked me
Maybe by taking $40g off the $250g top salary you are talking about, and spreading that out at the bottom. I realise that is a simplistic idea, but I count myself among those who went as far as CPL but couldn't stomach the idea of working for nothing in woop-woop along the road to the holy grail of a decent job. So, I hear Onan. Clearly, the idea of chopping the pay of those on the big bucks (such as yourself) will be unpopular among the fraternity, but in the long run may actually improve the pilot's lot. There are endless bleatings on these fora about DJ etc undercutting T&C, with a queue a mile long waiting to pay for their rating. This in turn puts pressure on the QF T&C. Maybe if the conditions in GA weren't so bad, the queue wouldn't be so long? At the moment, becoming a working pilot is an all or nothing gamble. Just hoping that maybe someone has a better idea.
That needn't mean ruining it for those already at the top, either. That seems to be happening without any other gain, already.
I didn't say we should make the system flatter. Just interested to hear peoples thoughts on the matter. I am not saying you don't deserve X dollars for flying a 74, in fact your argument about relative responsibilty compared to other professionals is a good one (but that could also be used against you).
I think Onan was talking about flattening the structure . I know that ATC has a much flatter structure than piloting. Is that a good thing? I'd say, yes. You asked me
How flat do you want to make it?
That needn't mean ruining it for those already at the top, either. That seems to be happening without any other gain, already.
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404 Titan
If you have been in the system as long as you would have us believe, then you would know that the Air Line Pilots Award basically assesses salary in the size of the aircraft flown.
Going back quite a few years when the DC3 was king, agricultural pilots could earn as much as an airline skipper. Who put the multi millions of dollars into developing the aircraft of today?? the pilots?? Would you have us believe that flying a jumbo is that much more difficult than the DC3 with all the attendant nav aids of the time? the pilots still sit at the sharpend, if they stuff up they are first at the scene of the accident. Are you saying you put more effort into flying the aircraft because there are more passengers behind you?? Who gets millions of dollars spent on ATC services to ensure you dont fly into each other??? Your unions did very well for you, but like many enterprises in the modern day world many have priced themselves off the market. I would have thought that the present Airline scene would have shown that fact quite adequately. Its tough, but then so sometimes is life.
Prospector
If you have been in the system as long as you would have us believe, then you would know that the Air Line Pilots Award basically assesses salary in the size of the aircraft flown.
Going back quite a few years when the DC3 was king, agricultural pilots could earn as much as an airline skipper. Who put the multi millions of dollars into developing the aircraft of today?? the pilots?? Would you have us believe that flying a jumbo is that much more difficult than the DC3 with all the attendant nav aids of the time? the pilots still sit at the sharpend, if they stuff up they are first at the scene of the accident. Are you saying you put more effort into flying the aircraft because there are more passengers behind you?? Who gets millions of dollars spent on ATC services to ensure you dont fly into each other??? Your unions did very well for you, but like many enterprises in the modern day world many have priced themselves off the market. I would have thought that the present Airline scene would have shown that fact quite adequately. Its tough, but then so sometimes is life.
Prospector
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Would you have us believe that flying a jumbo is that much more difficult than the DC3 with all the attendant nav aids of the time?
As a matter of fact, pilots are STILL required to pass examinations incorporating pressure pattern flying, have a working knowledge of Mercator projections, and all the other stuff that is NEVER used today, in addition to the new navigation systems, and how to recognise and correct the many and various failures of the automatics.
The chances of a pilot getting into the lhs of a jumbo today, are considerably less than those of a pilot, in the days "when the DC3 was king".
Your unions did very well for you,
The other reason being airlines could AFFORD to pay their pilots more, because of the volume of turnover.
Look at the number of (unnecessary) ground staff per aircraft, that most airlines employ, compared with G.A. companies.
Making the system "flatter" is going to be achieved by either uniting the majority of G.A. pilots under one award through union membership, and/or bringing the salary of airline pilots down.
The companies are working hard enough to do that, without pilots assisting!
To believe that somehow airlines are going to REDUCE their crews salaries and then subsidise G.A. companies to pay their pilots MORE, is pie in the sky stuff.
Why would airlines WANT to do that?
To make pilots feel better??
Any money saved goes towards the bonuses of upper management, or to pay salaries of management of newly created "low-cost" airlines.
If you hope to "flatten" salaries, the ONLY way imo, is through a strong pilots' union - in Australia's case, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP...the Federation).