Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!
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my apologies to I Fly and my thanks to lackov .
a bad day indeed hindered my original post but is certainly no excuse. It was poor form, even though momentary.
even one of pprunes more famous wannabe's has times where his persistance is tested.
I suppose seeing I haven't got a job yet I can say I've never worked for free.
will someone please gimme a job....?
a bad day indeed hindered my original post but is certainly no excuse. It was poor form, even though momentary.
even one of pprunes more famous wannabe's has times where his persistance is tested.
I suppose seeing I haven't got a job yet I can say I've never worked for free.
will someone please gimme a job....?
Last edited by radar o'reilly; 27th Apr 2002 at 16:14.
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No one ever said any jobs were growing on trees....
They are out there, it just sometimes takes a bit of initiative and/or ingenuity to get a seat.
To make a sarcastic post such as yours, radar, hardly implies the open mind required. I've seen your other posts, and this one seems a bit out of character. I'll put it down to a bad day.
Perseverance is the key, as 'natural selection' is alive and well in aviation.
I'll support everything said here so far re the pay issue. NEVER work for free. To do so is taking one up the @rse yourself, and setting/continuing a precedent which dictates what other who follow you will have to put up with ("but the last guy did it for nothing", "I'm helping you by giving you this job, you know".......yeah, yeah, tell someone who gives a fu<k).
Have a little dignity..
They are out there, it just sometimes takes a bit of initiative and/or ingenuity to get a seat.
To make a sarcastic post such as yours, radar, hardly implies the open mind required. I've seen your other posts, and this one seems a bit out of character. I'll put it down to a bad day.
Perseverance is the key, as 'natural selection' is alive and well in aviation.
I'll support everything said here so far re the pay issue. NEVER work for free. To do so is taking one up the @rse yourself, and setting/continuing a precedent which dictates what other who follow you will have to put up with ("but the last guy did it for nothing", "I'm helping you by giving you this job, you know".......yeah, yeah, tell someone who gives a fu<k).
Have a little dignity..
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Marshall,
I feel sorry for the situation you have now found yourself in. I don't know where you trained and it is quite irrelevant. However one thing I'll bet for sure. They (your training organisation) gave you a real smooth sales pitch about how doing the 150hr CPL course would be "a great way to get started in your aviation career". Well mate, sorry to rain on the party but unless you were going for an airline cadetship the 150 hour course leaves you, with very few exceptions, almost unemployable in GA.
It is the schools that have a lot to answer for here. They should all, regardless of whether they are teaching a 150hr course from scratch or training a PPL with 750hrs to CPL standard, make it quite clear that having a CPL is no guarantee of employment as a pilot.
You can try and rationalise it any way you like but offering to work for free at the expense of another pilot losing his job IS NOT ON!
As for ways to build hours:
Hassel the DZ operators. Depending on the DZ, they do tend to go through pilots. You may or may not get paid but after all it is pvt ops and it's not unusual to log 10 hours in a weekend.
Get groups of non pilot type friends together and do some cost shares. We had a new CPL recently who took a bunch of her friends up the coast for a weekend in a 210. Cost her about $200.00 for 5hrs command time.
Another CPL I know was not given a job as such but made a deal that for any punters he brought in himself, he could take the charter. Obviously the operators insurance requirements have the final vote in this situation.
Good luck with it.
I feel sorry for the situation you have now found yourself in. I don't know where you trained and it is quite irrelevant. However one thing I'll bet for sure. They (your training organisation) gave you a real smooth sales pitch about how doing the 150hr CPL course would be "a great way to get started in your aviation career". Well mate, sorry to rain on the party but unless you were going for an airline cadetship the 150 hour course leaves you, with very few exceptions, almost unemployable in GA.
It is the schools that have a lot to answer for here. They should all, regardless of whether they are teaching a 150hr course from scratch or training a PPL with 750hrs to CPL standard, make it quite clear that having a CPL is no guarantee of employment as a pilot.
You can try and rationalise it any way you like but offering to work for free at the expense of another pilot losing his job IS NOT ON!
As for ways to build hours:
Hassel the DZ operators. Depending on the DZ, they do tend to go through pilots. You may or may not get paid but after all it is pvt ops and it's not unusual to log 10 hours in a weekend.
Get groups of non pilot type friends together and do some cost shares. We had a new CPL recently who took a bunch of her friends up the coast for a weekend in a 210. Cost her about $200.00 for 5hrs command time.
Another CPL I know was not given a job as such but made a deal that for any punters he brought in himself, he could take the charter. Obviously the operators insurance requirements have the final vote in this situation.
Good luck with it.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 27th Apr 2002 at 14:41.
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Firstly G'day CitationJet, and welcome...
Wow, that sure is a different way of looking at it! I can't say I hold with your view, in fact I disagree completely. I feel that after spending so much bl**dy hard earned $$ (remember, most of us didn't have mum and dad to pay for it), then why shouldn't someone expect to be re-imbursed for a job that they are doing? I'm also yet to see a "new CPL" blasting around in a Baron with circa 150 hrs.
Mmmmm, na. Money in the bank=money in the bank.
Unfortunately, we have no say in the concept/keeping of an accurate record of our hours, that one lays squarely at the feet of our estemed regulator.
Regards,
4/J
If the new CPL wasn't flying around in a chtr operators Baron, without receiving remuneration, he would be paying $450/hr to hire it.
Thus for each hour he gets out of a chtr operator whether paid or not he gains experience which would otherwise cost him $450/hr.
Thus for each hour he gets out of a chtr operator whether paid or not he gains experience which would otherwise cost him $450/hr.
Hours in the logbook = money in the bank
Unfortunately, we have no say in the concept/keeping of an accurate record of our hours, that one lays squarely at the feet of our estemed regulator.
Regards,
4/J
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CFI. Spot-on girl! Thumbs-up.
Enaires can you see now? You lost your job, wimp. We didnt lose ours. Maybe the Territory has become a candey-ass Brady-Bunch version of itself nowadays but back then you could sort out these little fly-for-free sh!ts in a REAL way that got results. And BTW my little southern-state self-righteous PC pal, the NT cops we knew were bloodey down-to-earth decent blokes who Id drink with again any day. They couldnt stand the little @rsehole any more than we could.
Enaires can you see now? You lost your job, wimp. We didnt lose ours. Maybe the Territory has become a candey-ass Brady-Bunch version of itself nowadays but back then you could sort out these little fly-for-free sh!ts in a REAL way that got results. And BTW my little southern-state self-righteous PC pal, the NT cops we knew were bloodey down-to-earth decent blokes who Id drink with again any day. They couldnt stand the little @rsehole any more than we could.
Moderator
Apologies if my previous post was a little heated, but it's an emotive subject.
lakov has summed it up very well.
429 CJ, we endeavour to produce CPLs who have a realistic view of the industry as well as achieving the flying standards required. And yes, this includes some plain talking about what it is really like out there, not empty promises, before they begin the course. If they don't like it then perhaps they are not cut out for it. We don't do the "integrated" course, but upgrade PPLs who have been out and built their hours and experience on their own initiatives rather than having it all spoon fed to them. We must be doing something right as not one of our CPL graduates has ever had to grovel for a job, or done any commercial flying for free.
One of the hard realities is that it really does matter where you train, and a prospective CPL should ask the school for evidence of first time pass rates and time to first job of graduates, and get some references from former CPL students to see how they went after qualifying. If you want help to decide where to train, ask some employers which school's graduates they prefer. Because from an employer's point of view there are CPLs and instructors from some organisations who quite simply have had inadequate training, and past experience has shown the expense and time required to get them up to speed simply isn't feasible, and it's not their fault the poor things, they just got sucked in by a clever sales pitch. Sometimes the only way these ones could get any work is to work for free. Because sadly that is all they are worth, and for many of them it is too late. Personally I prefer employees who have enough self respect to value themselves as they wish others to value them.
There is always paid flying work out there for those who are cut out for it, and who persevere. The number of hours you have are not necessarily as important as what you did in those hours, your maturity and general attitude. There are some great pilots out there with the minimum hours, and some really cr@p ones with plenty of hours.
Also the "work for free" advocates might like to consider this,...that if you are not getting paid, you are not covered by Workers Compensation Insurance (yup, saving your boss a few bob on those premiums too) so good luck to if you get injured in the course of your "employment".
lakov has summed it up very well.
429 CJ, we endeavour to produce CPLs who have a realistic view of the industry as well as achieving the flying standards required. And yes, this includes some plain talking about what it is really like out there, not empty promises, before they begin the course. If they don't like it then perhaps they are not cut out for it. We don't do the "integrated" course, but upgrade PPLs who have been out and built their hours and experience on their own initiatives rather than having it all spoon fed to them. We must be doing something right as not one of our CPL graduates has ever had to grovel for a job, or done any commercial flying for free.
One of the hard realities is that it really does matter where you train, and a prospective CPL should ask the school for evidence of first time pass rates and time to first job of graduates, and get some references from former CPL students to see how they went after qualifying. If you want help to decide where to train, ask some employers which school's graduates they prefer. Because from an employer's point of view there are CPLs and instructors from some organisations who quite simply have had inadequate training, and past experience has shown the expense and time required to get them up to speed simply isn't feasible, and it's not their fault the poor things, they just got sucked in by a clever sales pitch. Sometimes the only way these ones could get any work is to work for free. Because sadly that is all they are worth, and for many of them it is too late. Personally I prefer employees who have enough self respect to value themselves as they wish others to value them.
There is always paid flying work out there for those who are cut out for it, and who persevere. The number of hours you have are not necessarily as important as what you did in those hours, your maturity and general attitude. There are some great pilots out there with the minimum hours, and some really cr@p ones with plenty of hours.
Also the "work for free" advocates might like to consider this,...that if you are not getting paid, you are not covered by Workers Compensation Insurance (yup, saving your boss a few bob on those premiums too) so good luck to if you get injured in the course of your "employment".
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Made me laugh!
Couldn't help but laugh when I read Slasher's post on page 2. The whole post reads like a fantasy of "what I'd like to do..."; Slash, Ya can be anyone ya want to be on this forum mate, we dont care. Life experience has taught me that those who are genuinely tough have a gentle core and those who talk the talk, cant walk the walk. Now if your post IS true then you are a self confessed bully, vandal and criminal. 
If your post is true then you are fortunate that you didnt receive the conviction for wilful damage that you deserve, as such a coviction would exclude you from employment with any airline(or reputable security company!; ). Either way, you have damaged your own credibility. Sad.
Now if your post IS true then you are a self confessed bully, vandal and criminal. If your post is true then you are fortunate that you didnt receive the conviction for wilful damage that you deserve, as such a coviction would exclude you from employment with any airline(or reputable security company!; ). Either way, you have damaged your own credibility. Sad.
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The way I see it is a pilot with 150 hrs is looking for experience and is as keen as mustard. The problems lies there in that they are so keen that will do anything to get those hours and the operators take advantage of their naivity.
I was one of those people but never chose to fly for free. I used my unique character to market myself as "likeable" and managed to get a lucky break with none other than the CFI herself as a flight instructor! She was great to work for and at no time did I feel used, I even got a cash bonus at Xmas!
If we all look at the young recruits and hate them then we are in itself being so called "racist" to young fresh CPL's. They are not all the same , just looking for a break as I was. Operators should look at them as work experience and allow them to assist in day to day operations ie admin, washing an aircraft etc to see how the business runs . After a month they have proven themselves and been accepted by their workmates. If they are lucky they get a job, if not they get the experience to be more qualified for the next application to a prospective employer. You can't judge a persons character in the first five minutes. To work for free flying is unjust unfair and wrecks the industry. Besides, some times it's not what you know but who you know.
We have all worked for free at some time. Name one instructor who has not worked a full day, flown 2 hours, given 4 briefs, taken phone calls and filled out student files only to get paid for 2 hours flying! Salary paid instructors are usually with large schools over here. It is accepted as normal practice for a pilot to start work on contract. The problem is changing this attitude and if we start paying for the extra work it will put the prices up and make flying very expensive for the punter. Catch 22 comes to mind at this point, damed if you do and damed if you don't.
There are some new pilots that have worked for free but received training for free as payment. At the current aircraft rates I'd say that is a good deal for the short term employee but you can't live on air.
I have lost students that have started their training and after hearing other pilots talk about the industry and the low pay they have chucked it in. It's not worth it. Are we killing off the very industry that we are trying to promote by example and dissatisfaction? The real pilots are hooked, its not the money but the job itself, but you still have to pay the bills and $30 bucks an hour aint enough. If it could be supplimented by a lower hourly rate for ground duties we would be better off.
I feel both parties are guilty ( employers and employees) but the industry needs to be monitored. This is not happening and crap is seeping through the cracks.
It $hits me that I have paid a small fortune for this licence to fly and get paid squat per hour for my quals.
The industry standard needs a massive overhaul.
I was one of those people but never chose to fly for free. I used my unique character to market myself as "likeable" and managed to get a lucky break with none other than the CFI herself as a flight instructor! She was great to work for and at no time did I feel used, I even got a cash bonus at Xmas!
If we all look at the young recruits and hate them then we are in itself being so called "racist" to young fresh CPL's. They are not all the same , just looking for a break as I was. Operators should look at them as work experience and allow them to assist in day to day operations ie admin, washing an aircraft etc to see how the business runs . After a month they have proven themselves and been accepted by their workmates. If they are lucky they get a job, if not they get the experience to be more qualified for the next application to a prospective employer. You can't judge a persons character in the first five minutes. To work for free flying is unjust unfair and wrecks the industry. Besides, some times it's not what you know but who you know.
We have all worked for free at some time. Name one instructor who has not worked a full day, flown 2 hours, given 4 briefs, taken phone calls and filled out student files only to get paid for 2 hours flying! Salary paid instructors are usually with large schools over here. It is accepted as normal practice for a pilot to start work on contract. The problem is changing this attitude and if we start paying for the extra work it will put the prices up and make flying very expensive for the punter. Catch 22 comes to mind at this point, damed if you do and damed if you don't.
There are some new pilots that have worked for free but received training for free as payment. At the current aircraft rates I'd say that is a good deal for the short term employee but you can't live on air.
I have lost students that have started their training and after hearing other pilots talk about the industry and the low pay they have chucked it in. It's not worth it. Are we killing off the very industry that we are trying to promote by example and dissatisfaction? The real pilots are hooked, its not the money but the job itself, but you still have to pay the bills and $30 bucks an hour aint enough. If it could be supplimented by a lower hourly rate for ground duties we would be better off.
I feel both parties are guilty ( employers and employees) but the industry needs to be monitored. This is not happening and crap is seeping through the cracks.
It $hits me that I have paid a small fortune for this licence to fly and get paid squat per hour for my quals.
The industry standard needs a massive overhaul.
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Yeh yeh in answer to the email-barrage I admit we went a little overboard when we successivley banged his girlfriend. So Im sorry I was involved in that bit orright? 
ANFO stop pretending to think you know me pal. Youve never met me nor know what Im capable of. Im generous and reasonable to true mates, GFs etc but totaly the oposite to sh!ts like that (as well as the "hero" vermin you once shared cockpits with). Mind you we didnt lay a hand on that little fly.f.free @rsehole. Jimbo and Ian wouldnt have had any choice but to book us if we hadve been stupid enough to do that.
Enough said.
ANFO stop pretending to think you know me pal. Youve never met me nor know what Im capable of. Im generous and reasonable to true mates, GFs etc but totaly the oposite to sh!ts like that (as well as the "hero" vermin you once shared cockpits with). Mind you we didnt lay a hand on that little fly.f.free @rsehole. Jimbo and Ian wouldnt have had any choice but to book us if we hadve been stupid enough to do that.
Enough said.
Last edited by Slasher; 28th Apr 2002 at 07:21.
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I was just wondering if any of these "shiners" had it explained to them that it's not all about the hours in the log book, its about quality flying for reputable operators and learning something each time u fly. May be that the new CPL's are at ease with the fact that while they are risking their lives for F$%^ All in dodgy a/c ill maintained by their bosses who are building castles in prime suberbia driving swave cars and buying boats with doormats on them which outline their work ethic!!!
Just keep on bending over peoples, the poo chutes will only get wider and easier to penetrate!!!
Just keep on bending over peoples, the poo chutes will only get wider and easier to penetrate!!!
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Hello All, I have just read all 4 pages of this post and feel that it is very appropriate with all the UGALs making the migration up north at the moment. It is my experience that most of them are ppruners and so will hopefully read this thread also.
DO NOT WORK FOR FREE - DO NOT OFFER TO WORK FOR FREE
CFI - I certainly agree with you, alot of schools are to blame, many are cpl factories pumping out young pilots with a head full of dreams and no realistic education on their prospects or the workings of the industry.
Marshall - I feel for you mate it was not to long ago I was standing in your shoes. All I can suggest is reseach the companies you will be approaching ( it shows interest and intelligence) travel, visit the operators and get yourself a rent paying job while you wait for the flying job to come along.
I know personally it is very hard to get that first job. The biggest factor is the pilot themselves. There is NO difference between a 200hr pilot and a 210hr pilot the one with the best attitude will get the job. If the 210hr guy got the extra 10hrs by flying for free I would hope he doesn't have a chance over the guy who didn't.
I read with amusement the full circle theory that proposes that in the future there will be a shortage of pilots and we will all get paid well for our skills. The problem is most people are in this industry for the love of flying. That is the factor that will always ensure an excess of pilots.
TO THOSE WHO OFFER TO FLY FOR FREE: I don't think we can work for free at any stage because anyone who does will eventually want to get paid so where do you draw the line ? 30hrs? 50hrs? 100hrs? If you do 100hrs for free and feel you are now compentent on the type and ask to be paid how would you feel when the boss says "no pack your bags I have another bloke lined up to do the next 100hrs for free"? Are you going to have a second job for your entire carrer while you work for free to progress to each level?
BLACKLISTS are not the answer. Pilots blaming pilots = fighting within the ranks. We need to work together to improve the integrity of our profession. There are the good and bad in every industry and I feel that the operators who take advantage of pilots who will fly for no renumeration are the ones who are degrading the industry as a whole. Once this stops we will be able to start to build the reputation of our profession to the hights is deserves.
It was suggested that trades and other professions like nursing are better off than us due to unionisation. Maybe we should bring back the union with compulsory membership [I am now ducking and covering my head in preparation for the fallout]. What is the solution????
We are highly trained skilled profesionals our service is a comodity that can be purchased - working for free hurts all of us. I heard a story of a green cpl offer to work for free to a company. The CP interviewed him and asked him just how much he was willing to offer ie gave him enough rope to hang himself and then proceeded to tell him that if $0 per hour is what he is woth as a pilot he didn't want him working for his company. He then rang the other operators on the strip and informed them about this guy. Perhaps a little extreme but it highlights how you can shoot yourself in the foot when you do the wrong thing.
good flying
VneII
DO NOT WORK FOR FREE - DO NOT OFFER TO WORK FOR FREE
CFI - I certainly agree with you, alot of schools are to blame, many are cpl factories pumping out young pilots with a head full of dreams and no realistic education on their prospects or the workings of the industry.
Marshall - I feel for you mate it was not to long ago I was standing in your shoes. All I can suggest is reseach the companies you will be approaching ( it shows interest and intelligence) travel, visit the operators and get yourself a rent paying job while you wait for the flying job to come along.
I know personally it is very hard to get that first job. The biggest factor is the pilot themselves. There is NO difference between a 200hr pilot and a 210hr pilot the one with the best attitude will get the job. If the 210hr guy got the extra 10hrs by flying for free I would hope he doesn't have a chance over the guy who didn't.
I read with amusement the full circle theory that proposes that in the future there will be a shortage of pilots and we will all get paid well for our skills. The problem is most people are in this industry for the love of flying. That is the factor that will always ensure an excess of pilots.
TO THOSE WHO OFFER TO FLY FOR FREE: I don't think we can work for free at any stage because anyone who does will eventually want to get paid so where do you draw the line ? 30hrs? 50hrs? 100hrs? If you do 100hrs for free and feel you are now compentent on the type and ask to be paid how would you feel when the boss says "no pack your bags I have another bloke lined up to do the next 100hrs for free"? Are you going to have a second job for your entire carrer while you work for free to progress to each level?
BLACKLISTS are not the answer. Pilots blaming pilots = fighting within the ranks. We need to work together to improve the integrity of our profession. There are the good and bad in every industry and I feel that the operators who take advantage of pilots who will fly for no renumeration are the ones who are degrading the industry as a whole. Once this stops we will be able to start to build the reputation of our profession to the hights is deserves.
It was suggested that trades and other professions like nursing are better off than us due to unionisation. Maybe we should bring back the union with compulsory membership [I am now ducking and covering my head in preparation for the fallout
]. What is the solution????We are highly trained skilled profesionals our service is a comodity that can be purchased - working for free hurts all of us. I heard a story of a green cpl offer to work for free to a company. The CP interviewed him and asked him just how much he was willing to offer ie gave him enough rope to hang himself and then proceeded to tell him that if $0 per hour is what he is woth as a pilot he didn't want him working for his company. He then rang the other operators on the strip and informed them about this guy. Perhaps a little extreme but it highlights how you can shoot yourself in the foot when you do the wrong thing.
good flying
VneII
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I really can not believe the attitudes of some people on this forum.I think that anybody who puts themselves through a CPL must want to be in this industry.It's all well and good pooing on people from a position of CFI,but just remember we were all 150 to 200 hr pilots at some time.It is a hard road and sometimes a shortcut can be offered.I do not believe any of these moralist pricks who say they would never work for free, they were just not offered the work. Is dropping meatbombs for free wrong ?
Is ferrying an aircraft for someone who is not profiting from it's movement wrong ?
Is working your first 100 hrs as an instructor for free wrong ?because some prick of a CFI or owner justify's the fact that you need to be under supervision for that period time so will not pay you.
At the end of the day we all just want to get ahead in an industry that can be pretty cutthroat.
If someone openly offers their services for free then hopefully they willl be ignored by the majority of operators.
I may not have been operating in GA for a few years but unless things have changed dramatically over the last few years I'm sure there are not that many people out there operating for free.
As far as our good mate slasher goes, I can't believe you are a skipper on a 737(God help VB) You are a criminal.If you tried that on me you wouldn't be boasting about it.
Good luck to all low hour job seekers and may all employers who take advantage of you financially get cancer and die!!
Is ferrying an aircraft for someone who is not profiting from it's movement wrong ?
Is working your first 100 hrs as an instructor for free wrong ?because some prick of a CFI or owner justify's the fact that you need to be under supervision for that period time so will not pay you.
At the end of the day we all just want to get ahead in an industry that can be pretty cutthroat.
If someone openly offers their services for free then hopefully they willl be ignored by the majority of operators.
I may not have been operating in GA for a few years but unless things have changed dramatically over the last few years I'm sure there are not that many people out there operating for free.
As far as our good mate slasher goes, I can't believe you are a skipper on a 737(God help VB) You are a criminal.If you tried that on me you wouldn't be boasting about it.
Good luck to all low hour job seekers and may all employers who take advantage of you financially get cancer and die!!
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Well SLASHER, I think your response says it all...
And by the way my northern friend, I didnt mentioned that my pastures are very much greener these days. I was just pointing out a case of experience. Goodbye.
And by the way my northern friend, I didnt mentioned that my pastures are very much greener these days. I was just pointing out a case of experience. Goodbye.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Isn't it "funny", how we all like to "identify" with Stephen Segal, Charles Bronson, or Clint Eastwood when they kick ass, yet when our local hero - Slasher - decides to relay his real-life experience, he gets shot down because he doesn't fit the "professional pilot" image that a few Walter Mittys imagine to be the mould!
EVERY person has his/her limit, within which there is a perception of threat that will cause a "positive" response. Each of us is geared to different tolerances.
I couldn't quite fathom CFI's statement, "We don't do the "integrated" course, but upgrade PPLs who have been out and built their hours and experience on their own initiatives rather than having it all spoon fed to them."
What "initiatives" are there for PPL's to build their experience, other than outlaying their OWN $$$'s, CFI? Or are we using the AMWAY sell technique?
Let's face it, if a pilot is forced into flying commercial operations for free the operator will get what he deserves - a pilot who NEEDS to experiment with the equipment, and his own limitations.
Because he is not being paid, the pilot will not expect the owner/operator has placed any (great) value on the equipment:
Lightly gained is lightly valued!"
The aircraft owner/operator should EXPECT that the pilot who works for free will want to "experiment" with different characteristics of the aeroplane - after all he's not "costing" anything, but has a "right" to gain his payment via alternative means.
In reality, the pilot fraternity is probably GAINING more from the free fliers than they are losing, because it is these guys who cost the owner/operator MORE, than those who are employed as PROFESSIONALS, in MORE than just the monetary sense!
EVERY person has his/her limit, within which there is a perception of threat that will cause a "positive" response. Each of us is geared to different tolerances.
I couldn't quite fathom CFI's statement, "We don't do the "integrated" course, but upgrade PPLs who have been out and built their hours and experience on their own initiatives rather than having it all spoon fed to them."
What "initiatives" are there for PPL's to build their experience, other than outlaying their OWN $$$'s, CFI? Or are we using the AMWAY sell technique?
Let's face it, if a pilot is forced into flying commercial operations for free the operator will get what he deserves - a pilot who NEEDS to experiment with the equipment, and his own limitations.
Because he is not being paid, the pilot will not expect the owner/operator has placed any (great) value on the equipment:
Lightly gained is lightly valued!"
The aircraft owner/operator should EXPECT that the pilot who works for free will want to "experiment" with different characteristics of the aeroplane - after all he's not "costing" anything, but has a "right" to gain his payment via alternative means.
In reality, the pilot fraternity is probably GAINING more from the free fliers than they are losing, because it is these guys who cost the owner/operator MORE, than those who are employed as PROFESSIONALS, in MORE than just the monetary sense!
I can identify with how guilty those pilots must feel working for free. I was the same - well, almost. The RAAF trained me for free and when later I was having an unbelievable happy time throwing a Mustang around the sky for a lousy fifteen quid a week I felt so guilty that I almost volunteered to do it for free. But I resisted the temptation!
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: oz
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Has anyone considered what the award wage is for a GA pilot?
http://www.osiris.gov.au:443/html/aw...0/IA000330.htm
Now I'm not particularly well versed in how this all works, but I was at least under the impression that this was legally enforcable.... is there a different award out there that more applicable???
Am interested to hear everyones views
cheers,
spacey
http://www.osiris.gov.au:443/html/aw...0/IA000330.htm
Now I'm not particularly well versed in how this all works, but I was at least under the impression that this was legally enforcable.... is there a different award out there that more applicable???
Am interested to hear everyones views
cheers,
spacey
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Spaceman you have brought up a good point. All of these free flyers, or indeed any underpaid flyers, can (and some do) go to the Industrial Relations Commision once they moved on to 'greener pastures'. They can get a nice little bonus that the former employer has not budgeted for. If more people did that, we might be left with employers that DO budget for pilots wages when they quote for flights.
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Join Date: May 2001
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Since i've said my piece on people who work for free and I've now just read the last couple of pages i think it is only fair that we all start to give some advice to those who want it on how we got that first job even though companies have "insurance minimums".
I got my first job (which im still in) by working in the office for the first few months (also fully paid) and flying occassionally on some of our easier flights and smaller aircraft until the CP felt that I was ready to move onwards and upwards. I didnt meet the requirements to start off but believe that i had a good work ethic, worked hard and was good with our customers and therefore good for the company.
Like someone said earlier, the statement is usually something like "xxhours or at the discretion of the CP". Thus the reason i started on the smaller aircraft on easier routes until he felt that i had the experience needed to fly into some of our shorter strips that cop the worst weather.
So thats how i started. I guess i learnt to walk before running but i am slowly progressing through a company that looks after its employees and we all therefore do our best to look after the company.
All of our guys are paid for the work they do and we also get a STBY rate on the ground at the other end if we have to hang around for the charter (obviously doesnt apply to the full time guys). This is all built into the price that we quote and companies are generally happy to pay a bit more as we believe we deliver a better product. In the end the cost is not that much more but our clients then dont have to deal with a pilot who doesnt want to be there as he isnt getting paid a dime let alone for the time on the ground. So long as we dont bust our duty times we give the client our mobile number and if he/she needs to spend longer there, its no problem.
All i can say is that if you work for free you are ruining it for those out there who cant afford to and deserve to be paid for the work they do. There is work out there and getting the first job is probably the hardest thing you'll do (I dont know yet as i havn't looked for my second ) but it is out there. Hang around, try and find if your CFI has a friend anywhere that may need a casual pilot to start off. If you're not an idiot and your CFI can see that you will work hard he/she may indeed make some calls on your behalf and float your name around. They will NOT get you a job but may break the ice for you at a couple of companies.
Twin
I got my first job (which im still in) by working in the office for the first few months (also fully paid) and flying occassionally on some of our easier flights and smaller aircraft until the CP felt that I was ready to move onwards and upwards. I didnt meet the requirements to start off but believe that i had a good work ethic, worked hard and was good with our customers and therefore good for the company.
Like someone said earlier, the statement is usually something like "xxhours or at the discretion of the CP". Thus the reason i started on the smaller aircraft on easier routes until he felt that i had the experience needed to fly into some of our shorter strips that cop the worst weather.
So thats how i started. I guess i learnt to walk before running but i am slowly progressing through a company that looks after its employees and we all therefore do our best to look after the company.
All of our guys are paid for the work they do and we also get a STBY rate on the ground at the other end if we have to hang around for the charter (obviously doesnt apply to the full time guys). This is all built into the price that we quote and companies are generally happy to pay a bit more as we believe we deliver a better product. In the end the cost is not that much more but our clients then dont have to deal with a pilot who doesnt want to be there as he isnt getting paid a dime let alone for the time on the ground. So long as we dont bust our duty times we give the client our mobile number and if he/she needs to spend longer there, its no problem.
All i can say is that if you work for free you are ruining it for those out there who cant afford to and deserve to be paid for the work they do. There is work out there and getting the first job is probably the hardest thing you'll do (I dont know yet as i havn't looked for my second
) but it is out there. Hang around, try and find if your CFI has a friend anywhere that may need a casual pilot to start off. If you're not an idiot and your CFI can see that you will work hard he/she may indeed make some calls on your behalf and float your name around. They will NOT get you a job but may break the ice for you at a couple of companies.Twin