Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!
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G'day Hugh Jarse.
Sorry, I didn't quite make myself very clear. Speaking from my own experience, the operator I "worked" for does pay more in the long run, as all the (very many) pilots he goes thru each year flog the sh!t out of his a/c. Blown cylindars, cracked pistons, smashed oleos, run-ups on gravel etc. Operators who do not respect pilots (by not paying them) can expect no respect in return for thier a/c.
I was not talking about pilots who seek to undercut paid pilots by offering services for free. This type are not worth paying anyway.
I hope this clarifies.
Sorry, I didn't quite make myself very clear. Speaking from my own experience, the operator I "worked" for does pay more in the long run, as all the (very many) pilots he goes thru each year flog the sh!t out of his a/c. Blown cylindars, cracked pistons, smashed oleos, run-ups on gravel etc. Operators who do not respect pilots (by not paying them) can expect no respect in return for thier a/c.
I was not talking about pilots who seek to undercut paid pilots by offering services for free. This type are not worth paying anyway.
I hope this clarifies.
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Interesting stuff guys....
casting my mind forward some years into the future, when CASA has completely killed the industry that feeds CASA, where will all the lil newbies come from. Surely careers advisors would have to have big rocks in their head to recommend a career in aviation....So lil Johnny from Snob college goes to be an accountant. eventually the ageing population
will deliver more pilots retiring madatorily than entering the industry...Then what?
The industry that survives will need to pay for the people doing the work and problem solved....sorta
Except for the lil rich kids rocking up in thier new Honda Prelude with VH-Pilot licence plates, a genuine rolex and no need to earn money..
Geez I think that is called an endless loop........I'm getting off,there is no answer it always is and always will be dog eat dog......
"9 iron please James.............".
casting my mind forward some years into the future, when CASA has completely killed the industry that feeds CASA, where will all the lil newbies come from. Surely careers advisors would have to have big rocks in their head to recommend a career in aviation....So lil Johnny from Snob college goes to be an accountant. eventually the ageing population
will deliver more pilots retiring madatorily than entering the industry...Then what?The industry that survives will need to pay for the people doing the work and problem solved....sorta
Except for the lil rich kids rocking up in thier new Honda Prelude with VH-Pilot licence plates, a genuine rolex and no need to earn money..
Geez I think that is called an endless loop........I'm getting off,there is no answer it always is and always will be dog eat dog......
"9 iron please James.............".
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Pullpowa,
More than likely spot on on both counts (unfortunately). But doesn't that mean that the two effects you describe will cancel each other out, and that this aspect of GA will be untainted (for good or bad) by CASA's plans? Think KAOS theory for more info..
Slasher, gotta love karma eh? Poetry in motion.
More than likely spot on on both counts (unfortunately). But doesn't that mean that the two effects you describe will cancel each other out, and that this aspect of GA will be untainted (for good or bad) by CASA's plans? Think KAOS theory for more info..
Slasher, gotta love karma eh? Poetry in motion.
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Slasher...maybe next time try talking to the bloke in question...is there need to commit a crime to "teach" someone something? If you did what you said, your attitude revolts me. Even more if your copper "mates" turn a blind eye...sad state of affairs!
Dont work for free, that is part of being a professional.
Dont work for free, that is part of being a professional.
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As well as an instructor I'm also a registered nurse. Now during our training we had about 6 months full time (in total) of work at various hospitals. Unpaid of course. Used to be that student nurses were paid for the work we did, not any more. It's not only flying where professionals work for free, its all part of learning the job. Medical students, too. Dont know about other professions.
Some small amount of getting to know the job is required, however i agree that the operators are not entirely sensible, they will have a high turnover with unsatisfied and inexperienced pilots.
To all those who whinge about "rich boys" turning up in expensive cars ... get a life... stop blaming your problems on others....the best way to succeed is to take responsibilty for yourself and accept that the world is inequitable! blah blah blah.
SKC
Some small amount of getting to know the job is required, however i agree that the operators are not entirely sensible, they will have a high turnover with unsatisfied and inexperienced pilots.
To all those who whinge about "rich boys" turning up in expensive cars ... get a life... stop blaming your problems on others....the best way to succeed is to take responsibilty for yourself and accept that the world is inequitable! blah blah blah.
SKC
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Cath
Stick to your full time job and the great salary it generates. If you want to have a bit of a dabble in aviation as an instructor, go ahead and do so.
But have a heart, until your sole income comes from aviation realize that you probably have no idea at all what these guys are talking about.
Stick to your full time job and the great salary it generates. If you want to have a bit of a dabble in aviation as an instructor, go ahead and do so.
But have a heart, until your sole income comes from aviation realize that you probably have no idea at all what these guys are talking about.
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true square bear, i can see your point. I guess im lucky to know that i have something to fall back on. Trouble is, I'm now addicted to flying, and the full time job just seems like... welll... a job...
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interesting thread, having just watched a job go to a pilot who was not qualified for a job, though i'm sure his daddy will be paying for his "on the job training" i'm staring to think the only way to rid aviation of these people is to publish a list of pilots names and blacklist the scum
Bend over and take it like a GA pilot
Bend over and take it like a GA pilot
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GO AWAY
I say go away.
Have a good look at the amount of money it has cost you to get to where you are now, now tell me you don't ever want to earn money for it. If that is the case good and well buy a plane because you can obviously afford and compete in the open market for a few seconds, before you go into liquidation.
It's a snowball effect you fools.
EG:
PILOT(REAL PILOTS) WITH 150 HRS WOULD LIKE 250 HRS
" " 500 HRS WOULD LIKE 500 HRS
" " WITH 1000 HRS WOULD LIKE TURBINE
WHERE DO YOU END UP IF WE ALL DID THIS FOR EXPERIENCE ,
ACCORDING TO ME YOU WOULD GET PAID, NEVER....
IS THAT THE INDUSTRY YOU WANT?ASK YOUSELVES AND IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE TO "IF I DONT TAKE IT SOMEONE ELSE WILL" BECAUSE EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE FOUND OUT.
- Look I know of all people how hard it is to get the first crack
"it's bloody hard but if you want it bad enough you will get it and you will feel very good about it.
i know one guy last week who is getting a go with our company who falls short by about 80 hrs off our requirements< but he's getting a go because of his attitude......
It's up to you new cpl's to keep the industry to the condition that it is at the moment and improve it, it does not feel good working your butt off and not getting paid.
Ask yourselves one more question.
If the operator isn't paying me, what else isn't he paying????????
think a/c
have a good day
Have a good look at the amount of money it has cost you to get to where you are now, now tell me you don't ever want to earn money for it. If that is the case good and well buy a plane because you can obviously afford and compete in the open market for a few seconds, before you go into liquidation.
It's a snowball effect you fools.
EG:
PILOT(REAL PILOTS) WITH 150 HRS WOULD LIKE 250 HRS
" " 500 HRS WOULD LIKE 500 HRS
" " WITH 1000 HRS WOULD LIKE TURBINE
WHERE DO YOU END UP IF WE ALL DID THIS FOR EXPERIENCE ,
ACCORDING TO ME YOU WOULD GET PAID, NEVER....
IS THAT THE INDUSTRY YOU WANT?ASK YOUSELVES AND IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE TO "IF I DONT TAKE IT SOMEONE ELSE WILL" BECAUSE EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE FOUND OUT.
- Look I know of all people how hard it is to get the first crack
"it's bloody hard but if you want it bad enough you will get it and you will feel very good about it.
i know one guy last week who is getting a go with our company who falls short by about 80 hrs off our requirements< but he's getting a go because of his attitude......
It's up to you new cpl's to keep the industry to the condition that it is at the moment and improve it, it does not feel good working your butt off and not getting paid.
Ask yourselves one more question.
If the operator isn't paying me, what else isn't he paying????????
think a/c
have a good day
Moderator
In my experience these little $hits invariably come fresh from the sausage factories, no way could they have earned the money to pay for the course so I guess Daddy is prepared to keep on forking out for a while..no doubt they think that only the "peasants" need to earn a living...and some actually look down on those who require payment for their services!
Anyway my point is that a lot of the blame for these attitudes lies squarely on the shoulders of the schools that teach these little $hits. They should be teaching a bit of ethics as part of the CPL course, but as many of these outfits have no ethics themselves, and the instructors are probably working for less than the award, the example is there and the rot sets in.
If I get a resume brought in by one of these little $hits with "scrambled egg" all over their unemployed shoulders and they say they will work for free, I tell them that we need people who will get along with the rest of the staff and for that reason they would obviously not be suitable. (ie they would be lynched!)
Anyway my point is that a lot of the blame for these attitudes lies squarely on the shoulders of the schools that teach these little $hits. They should be teaching a bit of ethics as part of the CPL course, but as many of these outfits have no ethics themselves, and the instructors are probably working for less than the award, the example is there and the rot sets in.
If I get a resume brought in by one of these little $hits with "scrambled egg" all over their unemployed shoulders and they say they will work for free, I tell them that we need people who will get along with the rest of the staff and for that reason they would obviously not be suitable. (ie they would be lynched!)
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They should be teaching a bit of ethics as part of the CPL course
Just curious, my background comes from another industry (ie; a trade, where that sort of prostitution is non-existant), before I decided to go flying, and while I was lucky enough to be able to position myself to gain some other bits and pieces of flying before I "went north", there are many who haven't been so lucky, and would almost kill for the opportunities to gain just that few more hours than the next candidate in their logbooks for that first full time job.
How would you approach it?
Regards,
CJ
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Slasher, my response was on your attitude, not on your PERSON. I dont agree with what you say of the NT, because Ive been there, done that. There is no excuse for vilolence, verbal of physical.
And about this topic.. read what I wrote, I agree with you and others that working for free damages the situation for all. I am presently in the position of having lost a JOB flying (600 hours per year including good multi-engine) due to the aformentioned 'professional' pilots that do it for free or for ****** all. And I left on the basis of PRINCIPLE.
And about this topic.. read what I wrote, I agree with you and others that working for free damages the situation for all. I am presently in the position of having lost a JOB flying (600 hours per year including good multi-engine) due to the aformentioned 'professional' pilots that do it for free or for ****** all. And I left on the basis of PRINCIPLE.
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How is a brand new CPL holder able to clock up 500 hours in order to get a decent job if they can’t be exploited? Rumor has it that I cannot get work, even up north with my CPL and a command instrument rating, as I need 500 hrs to meet the “insurance” requirements. It goes without saying that the first 500 hours are the hardest and the most annoying of a pilots career.
I could pay for 350 more hours (which would be costly) or do an instructor rating, but if I could work for “free” I could save myself a lazy $10000. The quality of my instruction could also be lacking, as I have no experience but a mere 160 hours!
Believe me when I say I am not having a dig at anyone. I am just very unsure what to do next. Working for free I thought was part and parcel, it just had to be done. Any feedback would be great as I am in limbo.
If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do next that would be greatly appreciated.
(CPL 160 hours and Night VFR)
I could pay for 350 more hours (which would be costly) or do an instructor rating, but if I could work for “free” I could save myself a lazy $10000. The quality of my instruction could also be lacking, as I have no experience but a mere 160 hours!
Believe me when I say I am not having a dig at anyone. I am just very unsure what to do next. Working for free I thought was part and parcel, it just had to be done. Any feedback would be great as I am in limbo.
If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do next that would be greatly appreciated.
(CPL 160 hours and Night VFR)
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Timmeeee:
Well Said, I too was in a similar position, sorting out and making choices from resumes..
As a matter of courtesy, we managed to reply to all except those who offered to work for nix.
There was no lack of 'work for free' offers.
I have often read a lot a angry words on this forum about operators and companies.
Yes, there are a number of rotten apples in the system.
But, over the years, I've found most operators try to do the right thing and look after their pilots. Conditions, salary etc.
There are far more pilots willing to work for nothing and be exploited (by a minority of bad operators).
It's easy to see who the good guys are - they are the successful operators. A good indicator is their staff - companies with a relatively low turn over of staff must be doing something right.
As for Slasher;
Well, I don't quite agree with the methods but hey - some times you gotta do what you gotta do. Let's hope your colleague got the message.
Marshall Mate! What ever choice you make you have to live with!
The old insurance requirement is a good one. If we liked someone - we gave them a go and if they didn't meet minimums we changed them. Most policies say "xxx hours or as approved by Chief Pilot". So it's a good excuse instead of saying 'sorry - we don't like you'.
The idea is to sell your self. Be the pilot that will add to their company (that does not include workin for nothing). A lot of pilots get a couple of knock backs - send 10 letters then decide to try another ploy - Hey, what if I work for free!.
Doesn't work.
You may work for free for operator 'A' then decide you have enough in the logbook, leave and look for work with company 'B' that happens to do the right thing and pay well.
Well, it's a small industry and the good guys know who the bad guys are.
If you get into the 'work for free' cycle, then it's often hard to get a paying position as your resume (LOGBOOK) will follow you.
Well Said, I too was in a similar position, sorting out and making choices from resumes..
As a matter of courtesy, we managed to reply to all except those who offered to work for nix.
There was no lack of 'work for free' offers.
I have often read a lot a angry words on this forum about operators and companies.
Yes, there are a number of rotten apples in the system.
But, over the years, I've found most operators try to do the right thing and look after their pilots. Conditions, salary etc.
There are far more pilots willing to work for nothing and be exploited (by a minority of bad operators).
It's easy to see who the good guys are - they are the successful operators. A good indicator is their staff - companies with a relatively low turn over of staff must be doing something right.
As for Slasher;
Well, I don't quite agree with the methods but hey - some times you gotta do what you gotta do. Let's hope your colleague got the message.
Marshall Mate! What ever choice you make you have to live with!
The old insurance requirement is a good one. If we liked someone - we gave them a go and if they didn't meet minimums we changed them. Most policies say "xxx hours or as approved by Chief Pilot". So it's a good excuse instead of saying 'sorry - we don't like you'.
The idea is to sell your self. Be the pilot that will add to their company (that does not include workin for nothing). A lot of pilots get a couple of knock backs - send 10 letters then decide to try another ploy - Hey, what if I work for free!.
Doesn't work.
You may work for free for operator 'A' then decide you have enough in the logbook, leave and look for work with company 'B' that happens to do the right thing and pay well.
Well, it's a small industry and the good guys know who the bad guys are.
If you get into the 'work for free' cycle, then it's often hard to get a paying position as your resume (LOGBOOK) will follow you.
Last edited by Rich-Fine-Green; 27th Apr 2002 at 08:13.
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Charlie Foxtrot India
I can't believe I am reading stuff such as:
and:
from apparently, a CFI, and a moderator.
Where's your compassion?
You should be standing up as a role model for the next generation of GA pilots. It's hard enough to get a start in this industry.
Posts such as yours simply confuse and discourage. (Just look at marshall's situation.)
I understand that employing pilots who work for free undercuts 'the system', but young wannabees with little experience and plenty of vigour can pretty easily classed as 'desperate' when it comes to finding work with wings on it. Don't take it out on them.
A constructive way to continue this thread would be for someone to give some ideas about how to get from the 150 to the 500 hour experience level in a way that is acceptable to the majority.
(Hunkering down, tin hat on...)
ID
.
I can't believe I am reading stuff such as:
...blame for these attitudes lies squarely on the shoulders of the schools that teach these little $hits.
...these little $hits with "scrambled egg" all over their unemployed shoulders
Where's your compassion?
You should be standing up as a role model for the next generation of GA pilots. It's hard enough to get a start in this industry.
Posts such as yours simply confuse and discourage. (Just look at marshall's situation.)
I understand that employing pilots who work for free undercuts 'the system', but young wannabees with little experience and plenty of vigour can pretty easily classed as 'desperate' when it comes to finding work with wings on it. Don't take it out on them.
A constructive way to continue this thread would be for someone to give some ideas about how to get from the 150 to the 500 hour experience level in a way that is acceptable to the majority.
(Hunkering down, tin hat on...
) ID
.
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one suggestion (it worked for me) i backpacked round africa knocking on doors..got a job that paid, lots of operators there employ low time fresh cpls and pay them. There's plenty of info on the africa forum of jobs over there.
have now returned back home after 3 years, why is it that some operators here don't have the decency to treat you like a human, are there that many cv's crossing their desk everyday??
have now returned back home after 3 years, why is it that some operators here don't have the decency to treat you like a human, are there that many cv's crossing their desk everyday??
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The reality is nobody works for "free".
If the new CPL wasn't flying around in a chtr operators Baron, without receiving remuneration, he would be paying $450/hr to hire it.
Thus for each hour he gets out of a chtr operator whether paid or not he gains experience which would otherwise cost him $450/hr.
Hours in the logbook = money in the bank
The only way to stop this practice - if it needs to be stopped - is to eliminate logbooks.
Hire pilots on the basis of the qualifications they hold, and their demonstrated competency rather than the hours in their logbooks.
Scrap logbooks and people won't fly without pay.
If the new CPL wasn't flying around in a chtr operators Baron, without receiving remuneration, he would be paying $450/hr to hire it.
Thus for each hour he gets out of a chtr operator whether paid or not he gains experience which would otherwise cost him $450/hr.
Hours in the logbook = money in the bank
The only way to stop this practice - if it needs to be stopped - is to eliminate logbooks.
Hire pilots on the basis of the qualifications they hold, and their demonstrated competency rather than the hours in their logbooks.
Scrap logbooks and people won't fly without pay.
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Victa, it's very simple. When you have 150 hours apply for jobs that require 150 hours. When you have 500 hours apply for jobs that require 500 hours. Learn to walk before you learn to run. Be mindfull that others are running already. One day you'll be running and would not like it if someone walking took your job.