200 hr TT instructors, A waste of space?
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I'm not suggesting breaking rules, I suggested changing them.
CFI, you know a lot more about this sort of system that most of us, care to elaborate on how the Pom system used to work???
AK
CFI, you know a lot more about this sort of system that most of us, care to elaborate on how the Pom system used to work???
AK
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Cypher - I can relate to you there and im sure if loans were withdrawn you would not be the only one out of buisness.
Have to agree with the idea of a C-Cat issue requiring the various teaching endorsments to be added - pretty much what is under proposal (no x-country or I/F teaching while under supervision).
What do the folks out there think the problems arising from this 'possibly inadequte instruction' at times are?
I trained with both low time instructors and those at the other end of the scale much like my peers and found that we could all hold hight on x-countries, stall with min. height loss etc etc but what I do notice (an am/was guilty of it myself) is a general lack of airmanship - as in what TO do/what NOT TO do at away aerodromes be it refuelling procedures, relevant RTFO, parking, aerodrome access etc.
I wasnt really taught these to the extent I learnt myself from visiting the locals when on an away field. The only reason I got the oppurtunity to was because for various reasons I ended up doing private flying than I actually needed to.
Have to agree with the idea of a C-Cat issue requiring the various teaching endorsments to be added - pretty much what is under proposal (no x-country or I/F teaching while under supervision).
What do the folks out there think the problems arising from this 'possibly inadequte instruction' at times are?
I trained with both low time instructors and those at the other end of the scale much like my peers and found that we could all hold hight on x-countries, stall with min. height loss etc etc but what I do notice (an am/was guilty of it myself) is a general lack of airmanship - as in what TO do/what NOT TO do at away aerodromes be it refuelling procedures, relevant RTFO, parking, aerodrome access etc.
I wasnt really taught these to the extent I learnt myself from visiting the locals when on an away field. The only reason I got the oppurtunity to was because for various reasons I ended up doing private flying than I actually needed to.
Moderator
snarek, a good question.
I was one of the first to have to go thorugh the BCPL route in 1990 to qualify to start the instructor rating. Some of the instructors who trained me were PPLs. Others were retired (or in a couple of cases sacked!) airline or military pilots. Some were great, some were rubbish.
But the difference then was that you had to have 700 hours before you could sit the CPL exams, and ALL of those PPL instructors bar one whose eyesight was too bad for a Class 1 medical (and who got a job RHS flying a local privately owned Lear anyway!) were building up to the magic 700, getting their CPL/IR and (in those halcyon days) disappearing off to the airlines straight away. So they weren't "hobby" instructors, but had the same motivation as most instructors. As soon as the BCPL came in and you could sit the exams and do the CAAFU flight test at 250 hours to get a "resticted" CPL for instructing and local flights within 25nm of the aerodrome until you got the magic 700 and moved on, there was no need for the PPL instructor route, as you could get the CPL out of the way sooner. Some of the older ones carried on with the "grandfather" clause. (I beleive JAR finished them off later) but all the others were long gone to the turboprops.
Once the BCPL came in we all had to jump through a lot of hoops, and it weeded out a lot of the chaff because it's not a system that lends itself to failure.
Also in the UK, most of the flying schools operate as clubs, so the situation is different there.
I was one of the first to have to go thorugh the BCPL route in 1990 to qualify to start the instructor rating. Some of the instructors who trained me were PPLs. Others were retired (or in a couple of cases sacked!) airline or military pilots. Some were great, some were rubbish.
But the difference then was that you had to have 700 hours before you could sit the CPL exams, and ALL of those PPL instructors bar one whose eyesight was too bad for a Class 1 medical (and who got a job RHS flying a local privately owned Lear anyway!) were building up to the magic 700, getting their CPL/IR and (in those halcyon days) disappearing off to the airlines straight away. So they weren't "hobby" instructors, but had the same motivation as most instructors. As soon as the BCPL came in and you could sit the exams and do the CAAFU flight test at 250 hours to get a "resticted" CPL for instructing and local flights within 25nm of the aerodrome until you got the magic 700 and moved on, there was no need for the PPL instructor route, as you could get the CPL out of the way sooner. Some of the older ones carried on with the "grandfather" clause. (I beleive JAR finished them off later) but all the others were long gone to the turboprops.
Once the BCPL came in we all had to jump through a lot of hoops, and it weeded out a lot of the chaff because it's not a system that lends itself to failure.
Also in the UK, most of the flying schools operate as clubs, so the situation is different there.
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Snarek:
I fail to recall where Meatbombing PPLs are exempt anywhere.
Some fly for free, some get a pittance - however, Parachuting is still a Private Operation and no exemption for PPLs payment exists. Even if it does happen.
Besides, most Parachuting operations I know of take only CPLs.
Flying Training is still regarded as Aerial Work - not Private.
In any case, the avenue for PPLs to Instruct and get paid does exist;
In Ultralights.
If a PPL has a burning desire to Instruct and does not want to make the effort to take the small step to a CPL - they can go and fly a Jabiru/Skyfox/Drifter/Lightwing and good luck to them.
Hey, look on the bright side - no more 'Dumb' CASA rules.
It is just a rule, and a dumb CASA rule at that. Meat bombing PPLs get paid, so why not just exempt PPL Instructors as well.
Some fly for free, some get a pittance - however, Parachuting is still a Private Operation and no exemption for PPLs payment exists. Even if it does happen.
Besides, most Parachuting operations I know of take only CPLs.
Flying Training is still regarded as Aerial Work - not Private.
In any case, the avenue for PPLs to Instruct and get paid does exist;
In Ultralights.
If a PPL has a burning desire to Instruct and does not want to make the effort to take the small step to a CPL - they can go and fly a Jabiru/Skyfox/Drifter/Lightwing and good luck to them.
Hey, look on the bright side - no more 'Dumb' CASA rules.
With this weeks minimum wage rise does this mean that any instructors will see more in there pay packet. Quickly and roughly doing the sums then if you do 10hours a week on a pay per hour basis (as with most instructors) it should be $1.70 an hour extra. Not much I admit but over a 500hours in a year it is an extra $850. (Hope toohey is reading this). Perhaps if some of these people who would like to see PPL's instruct should try living on what most instructors earn!
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Pay rise what a joke for us pilots, I luv your idea engine out.
I'm a full time GA pilot living on my finger nails and the last thing I'd wanna see is a PPL instructing.I am doing the bloody hard yards and it has too stop!!!!!!
Is anyone else in the same situation willing to tell their experiences because I have too many.
I'm a full time GA pilot living on my finger nails and the last thing I'd wanna see is a PPL instructing.I am doing the bloody hard yards and it has too stop!!!!!!
Is anyone else in the same situation willing to tell their experiences because I have too many.
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So how does one go from 200TT to 500TT to satisfy insurance requirements? 
Do you really believe a bare CPL will get a job as a jump pilot?
Come on....whatever you're sniffing give me some!
Do you really believe a bare CPL will get a job as a jump pilot?
Come on....whatever you're sniffing give me some!
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I must add my two cents worth.
Firstly, there is a huge amount of difference between a 200 TT Grade 3 straight out of school with no life experience and a 200 TT Grade 3 that has gone out and done something else. Similiar to CFI's comments about other abilities. Someone who has come from a job where interaction with a broad cross section of the community, which involves dealing with sometimes difficult customers, and needing to perform to sales budgets can often give a newbie the edge when it comes to instructing.
I think it comes down to `thinking outside the square' and adopting different ways of thinking to succeed. I wish pilots would stop thinking that they can show up for work and step straight into the LHS and fly. The sausage factories that pump new CPL's out by the dozen are the problem here. Commercial pressure is not just the flying aspect of the business. I would invite any pilot complaining about their wages to go and do a few charter quotes and see how much your company ISNT making.
Some of these `shiny new' pilots arent worth half the minimum wage as they just dont understand the economics behind small businesses.
Firstly, there is a huge amount of difference between a 200 TT Grade 3 straight out of school with no life experience and a 200 TT Grade 3 that has gone out and done something else. Similiar to CFI's comments about other abilities. Someone who has come from a job where interaction with a broad cross section of the community, which involves dealing with sometimes difficult customers, and needing to perform to sales budgets can often give a newbie the edge when it comes to instructing.
I think it comes down to `thinking outside the square' and adopting different ways of thinking to succeed. I wish pilots would stop thinking that they can show up for work and step straight into the LHS and fly. The sausage factories that pump new CPL's out by the dozen are the problem here. Commercial pressure is not just the flying aspect of the business. I would invite any pilot complaining about their wages to go and do a few charter quotes and see how much your company ISNT making.
Some of these `shiny new' pilots arent worth half the minimum wage as they just dont understand the economics behind small businesses.
Moderator
My CPL studes have to calculate and include a "quote" as part of their pre flight prep. They see how their "pay" is often a hell of a lot more than the profit margin for the operator. When they get back they work out how much it really cost, and how going just a little bit off track or stuffing around in the circuit area can quickly gobble up what little margin there was, and how to explain the 20% overrun on a 10% margin fixed quote to the boss... A reality check indeed. How many other schools include this as part of the training?
Similarly new instructors rarely realise how annoying and costly it is for others when they arrive back from a nav an hour late! Only one FI school I know includes "timekeeping" in the training. eg, don't do a 0.5 tif, and find yourself 20 miles away from base with 0.1 to go! Duh.
Similarly new instructors rarely realise how annoying and costly it is for others when they arrive back from a nav an hour late! Only one FI school I know includes "timekeeping" in the training. eg, don't do a 0.5 tif, and find yourself 20 miles away from base with 0.1 to go! Duh.
To those in the know out there...
I have just over 1000hrs TT which has been accrued during charter ops 'up north'. I'm currently considering renewing my Gr3 (which I never actually used) and looking for instructing work in syd or mel, basically as a lifestyle change and to broaden my flying experience (hoping for an airline gig some day, like everyone else!).
Am I a chance of employment, or will I be looked upon as a little too rusty, being away from the instructing mindset for a good 18 months +? Also, is there a chance of being labelled a cowboy, and therefore not a good instructor (despite making a personal effort to maintain my own standards whilst flying charter over the past 15 months).
I feel I have a fair bit more to offer now with 1000hrs than I did at 250hrs, but will employers look at it the same way?
Cheers,
TL
I have just over 1000hrs TT which has been accrued during charter ops 'up north'. I'm currently considering renewing my Gr3 (which I never actually used) and looking for instructing work in syd or mel, basically as a lifestyle change and to broaden my flying experience (hoping for an airline gig some day, like everyone else!).
Am I a chance of employment, or will I be looked upon as a little too rusty, being away from the instructing mindset for a good 18 months +? Also, is there a chance of being labelled a cowboy, and therefore not a good instructor (despite making a personal effort to maintain my own standards whilst flying charter over the past 15 months).
I feel I have a fair bit more to offer now with 1000hrs than I did at 250hrs, but will employers look at it the same way?
Cheers,
TL
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CFI, do you also point out to those same students, that there is only a 10% margin, because like everyone else, all the others are charging aircraft rates that are unrealistic and do not reflect the realities of running the aircraft at a reasonable return? I'm not having a go, just asking............
Moderator
Yes, and many are incredulous, that even if you quote on a pathetic 10%, your competitor may quote it at 5%. Some round here quote at negative margins. Yet 50% would be a more realistic margin.
I think CPL studes should have a basic knowledge of how to calculate gross margins and then factor in fixed costs, if they are to understand how this industry is. Especially if they are thinking of going in to aviation for themselves. Yet it seems to me many operators wouldn't know what a gross margin was if it bit them on the bum.
That's why I chose to be involved in CHTR only to the extent of cross-hiring aircraft to others! If I wanted to go broke I'd stay at home, I wouldn't bother to drive to the airport every day.
I think CPL studes should have a basic knowledge of how to calculate gross margins and then factor in fixed costs, if they are to understand how this industry is. Especially if they are thinking of going in to aviation for themselves. Yet it seems to me many operators wouldn't know what a gross margin was if it bit them on the bum.
That's why I chose to be involved in CHTR only to the extent of cross-hiring aircraft to others! If I wanted to go broke I'd stay at home, I wouldn't bother to drive to the airport every day.
Low Hours Instructors
Firstly, the G3 is only a licence to learn, just as is a degree. In a perfect world, "post-graduate" training would continue seamlessly through the flight schools, and on, and on, and on, and on - until they retired as CFI's. But, just as in many other industries, the economics have forced operators to prune this in house training.
The best learning environment,(IMHO),is still the 'Mentor-student' method of one-on-one. Sure, it would be great if experienced instructors could take more time to mentor G3's, but while the part-time/paid by the flying hour system continues -it's all their cost!
But there are other reasons mentor/student isn't popular. As in other industries, the student is being turned out with a sometimes over-inflated opinion of their own abilities, which means they don't think much of learning from an older 'mentor'. It has a lot to do with the way modern educational institutions stroke the student ego, with an eye toward word of mouth business for themselves. I see quite a bit of this in the agricultural science profession, where the new graduate hits the industry with a head full of theory and an attitude that they'll soon sort farmers out!
I think that instructing has a long way to go before it approaches the levels of the real teaching profession. A proper course should be in place to ensure that the industry is turning out people who can teach -as compared to blindly parrotting off a 'long brief' straight out of the flight schools course.
Now this theory and practice of teaching should be via an institution which does just that. Maybe a part time/remote correspondence type course, of several 'teaching' units,should be part of the career path of every instructor, lasting up to G1. Maybe even a pre-requisite for G1?
But, I have digressed from the original claims about low experience and poor skills. If you don't fly enough, you'll never improve. As they say, practice makes perfect. G3's need to be able to practice more often - and I don't mean with a full load of charter pax on board. Somewhere, somehow, flying school CFI's need to spend more time with their G3/G2 staff, improving their flying skills from the right hand seat,(not the left as for chtr). The need to improve instructing and flying skills has been identified, but is anything changing?
It might be nice for students to have a retired ATPL/Captain as their instructor, but this starts the old arguement about blocking career paths in the instructing industry. As an oldie myself, I have guilt pangs, from time to time, about doing instructing work which could well be done by someone younger,smarter,quicker,better looking and cheaper. But I like to do my few hours here and there, and I hope, can eventually pass down some important skills and know-how to my (licenced pilot) students.
cheers,
Firstly, the G3 is only a licence to learn, just as is a degree. In a perfect world, "post-graduate" training would continue seamlessly through the flight schools, and on, and on, and on, and on - until they retired as CFI's. But, just as in many other industries, the economics have forced operators to prune this in house training.
The best learning environment,(IMHO),is still the 'Mentor-student' method of one-on-one. Sure, it would be great if experienced instructors could take more time to mentor G3's, but while the part-time/paid by the flying hour system continues -it's all their cost!
But there are other reasons mentor/student isn't popular. As in other industries, the student is being turned out with a sometimes over-inflated opinion of their own abilities, which means they don't think much of learning from an older 'mentor'. It has a lot to do with the way modern educational institutions stroke the student ego, with an eye toward word of mouth business for themselves. I see quite a bit of this in the agricultural science profession, where the new graduate hits the industry with a head full of theory and an attitude that they'll soon sort farmers out!
I think that instructing has a long way to go before it approaches the levels of the real teaching profession. A proper course should be in place to ensure that the industry is turning out people who can teach -as compared to blindly parrotting off a 'long brief' straight out of the flight schools course.
Now this theory and practice of teaching should be via an institution which does just that. Maybe a part time/remote correspondence type course, of several 'teaching' units,should be part of the career path of every instructor, lasting up to G1. Maybe even a pre-requisite for G1?
But, I have digressed from the original claims about low experience and poor skills. If you don't fly enough, you'll never improve. As they say, practice makes perfect. G3's need to be able to practice more often - and I don't mean with a full load of charter pax on board. Somewhere, somehow, flying school CFI's need to spend more time with their G3/G2 staff, improving their flying skills from the right hand seat,(not the left as for chtr). The need to improve instructing and flying skills has been identified, but is anything changing?
It might be nice for students to have a retired ATPL/Captain as their instructor, but this starts the old arguement about blocking career paths in the instructing industry. As an oldie myself, I have guilt pangs, from time to time, about doing instructing work which could well be done by someone younger,smarter,quicker,better looking and cheaper. But I like to do my few hours here and there, and I hope, can eventually pass down some important skills and know-how to my (licenced pilot) students.
cheers,
Thread Starter
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Thanks for the great replys I'm happy to see that alot of people agree with my view.
Marshell,
Why can't a bare CPL be a jump pilot? I did, it took me six months to get a spot but in the end i'm now gaining hours and experiance. From what I see, its easier to spend more money than actually go out and look for a job. In the end it doesn't bother me, if you choose not to get off your a**e your one less person applying for my next job!
SP
Marshell,
Why can't a bare CPL be a jump pilot? I did, it took me six months to get a spot but in the end i'm now gaining hours and experiance. From what I see, its easier to spend more money than actually go out and look for a job. In the end it doesn't bother me, if you choose not to get off your a**e your one less person applying for my next job!
SP
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200 hr instructors, a waste of space?
Transition Layer, congratulations on your persistence! I remember reading when you first got your Instructor's Rating and went job hunting. I hear on the grapevine that NAT at EN are expecting the imminent arrival of 28 Korean students - why not call in on them?
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wow!
There's so many angles to this one, isn't there?
I'm a grade two instructor with over 1600 hours total time...and I'm still learning new ways to teach, picking up little bits of advice here and there from the more experienced instructors, getting feedback from my students,etc.
My point is...you never stop learning. So, to those who are saying that low time pilots should not instruct...why don't you just give them a chance? One of my juniors is probably one of the most enthusiastic, caring and most compentent instructors I know. There's plenty of senior instructors who are far worse than him around!
The company who employs me don't allow the junior instructors to teach anything but ab-initio for their first lot of hours. The juniors are briefed before the lesson and de-briefed afterwards. In other words...SUPERVISED properly. Seniors fly with their students every 2 or 3 hours and also sit in the back of their theory classes regularly. It's not because we don't think that they're capable...far from it. We know that they have only 200 hours...hence the supervision. Sure they make mistakes...but don't we all?
Training up to and including the instructor rating plays a HUGE role. If trainee instructors see that their instructors are lazy sods who really couldn't give a stuff and are just using instructing as a way of getting to the airlines...what do you think the junior is going to be like?
I wouldn't mind an airline job one day, but that doesn't mean that I make a poor instructor. I love my job, and when I retire from an airline, I plan to come back to it.
Have a great weekend fellas!
Chieftain
There's so many angles to this one, isn't there?
I'm a grade two instructor with over 1600 hours total time...and I'm still learning new ways to teach, picking up little bits of advice here and there from the more experienced instructors, getting feedback from my students,etc.
My point is...you never stop learning. So, to those who are saying that low time pilots should not instruct...why don't you just give them a chance? One of my juniors is probably one of the most enthusiastic, caring and most compentent instructors I know. There's plenty of senior instructors who are far worse than him around!
The company who employs me don't allow the junior instructors to teach anything but ab-initio for their first lot of hours. The juniors are briefed before the lesson and de-briefed afterwards. In other words...SUPERVISED properly. Seniors fly with their students every 2 or 3 hours and also sit in the back of their theory classes regularly. It's not because we don't think that they're capable...far from it. We know that they have only 200 hours...hence the supervision. Sure they make mistakes...but don't we all?
Training up to and including the instructor rating plays a HUGE role. If trainee instructors see that their instructors are lazy sods who really couldn't give a stuff and are just using instructing as a way of getting to the airlines...what do you think the junior is going to be like?
I wouldn't mind an airline job one day, but that doesn't mean that I make a poor instructor. I love my job, and when I retire from an airline, I plan to come back to it.
Have a great weekend fellas!
Chieftain
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Education, learning or training?
A great thread, however, I need to ask a question (and tell my experience, as a low double figure hour PPL student)
Firstly, how exactly is educational theory integrated (if at all) into the instructor rating? As someone who has ten or so years in HE, and a degree in the subject, I am aware that as adults we all have different learning styles. To date I have had four instructors, as follows.
1) Well above 200hrs bloke, gung ho style, I'll set the pace of the learning, don't jump the gun, don't ask questions that are beyond this criefing - also attempted to scare the s**t out of me by pulling a spin during initial stall familiarisation (not part of the curriculum!)
2) Barely above 200 hrs bloke, laid back style, you talk me through what you are doing, but prompting when stuck/losing it!
3) Middle aged CFI - screaming when I did not do things as he wanted. Crap briefing, little patience.
4) Older CFI, mucho experience; patient but firm, correcting my inputs by his knowledge of airmanship (e.g. asking me to think what is happening with the aircraft and how might I correct it, etc.)
To be frank No. 4 was just exceptional, which would indicate that hours do count, but No. 2, for me, was the better instructor, allowing me to learn how to fly, not training me.
There is an old adage that you train a dog but educate people. Perhaps the education bit is what appears to have been lost in flight instruction?
4)
Firstly, how exactly is educational theory integrated (if at all) into the instructor rating? As someone who has ten or so years in HE, and a degree in the subject, I am aware that as adults we all have different learning styles. To date I have had four instructors, as follows.
1) Well above 200hrs bloke, gung ho style, I'll set the pace of the learning, don't jump the gun, don't ask questions that are beyond this criefing - also attempted to scare the s**t out of me by pulling a spin during initial stall familiarisation (not part of the curriculum!)
2) Barely above 200 hrs bloke, laid back style, you talk me through what you are doing, but prompting when stuck/losing it!
3) Middle aged CFI - screaming when I did not do things as he wanted. Crap briefing, little patience.
4) Older CFI, mucho experience; patient but firm, correcting my inputs by his knowledge of airmanship (e.g. asking me to think what is happening with the aircraft and how might I correct it, etc.)
To be frank No. 4 was just exceptional, which would indicate that hours do count, but No. 2, for me, was the better instructor, allowing me to learn how to fly, not training me.
There is an old adage that you train a dog but educate people. Perhaps the education bit is what appears to have been lost in flight instruction?
4)
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Student-pilot many thanks for the personal reponse.
Do you really want me to bite? (oh and it's Marshall)
Tealady, I think the number is closer to 18 Korean students...
It's a shame that forking out $11000 for the instructor rating doesn't mean anything these days...
Do you really want me to bite?
(oh and it's Marshall) Tealady, I think the number is closer to 18 Korean students...
It's a shame that forking out $11000 for the instructor rating doesn't mean anything these days...
Last edited by marshall; 19th May 2003 at 11:37.
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Yes, please dont get me started on student loans... I feel the pushy flying schools (I didnt say ardmore did I?) are extracting huge amounts of money from anybody and everybody, sugar coating the 'dream of flying for a career' and then telling students they have exactly what it takes to get there... righto, calling for some up front honesty and accountability? maybe even evidence that this person really does have a chance in the industry. Enjoy the dream because for most $60k student loan holders, that's all it will ever become. Why? put 15,000 CPL in a country with 900 Jobs (figures not actual), and you find 14,100 redundant pilots. Pump through another 500 per anum nz wide through student loan programmes, and you dont make the situation any better. Rocket science is my speciality - lucky for the flying schools the CAA and government have even less intelligence and havent done anything about this yet.
NEXT TOPIC: Instructors: C category instructors are under direct supervision and can only train towards PPL licences until they are out of supervision which is for 6 months and 100 hours instructing. This supervision SHOULD mean a senior A or maybe even B category instructor SHOULD sit in through all briefings, do about 1 in 5-10 of the flights, and all the way through input his experience into the lesson whilst the fresh C category instructor is still gaining this experience. It also gives the fresh instructor some storys and valuable lessons to pass on.
FROM MY EXPERIENCE all the supervisor is doing is signing the instructor out, without much care or awareness as to what is happening. THIS is the fundamental issue causing all the problems you are mentioning. That's my two cents worth - take it or leave it.
Yes its true some of you may hate the thought of instructing, and certainly for those with no enthusiasm PLEASE DO NOT INSTRUCT... do the industry and yourself a favour! HOWEVER. I would recommend to ANYONE to do the instructor rating even if you never use it. I personally have little (less than 200 hrs) instructing over the years, but doing the instructor rating taught me as much as the leap from PPL to CPL about flying... it really does make you more aware of whats happening, why, and how to really criticise yourself and improve your flying.
NEXT TOPIC: Instructors: C category instructors are under direct supervision and can only train towards PPL licences until they are out of supervision which is for 6 months and 100 hours instructing. This supervision SHOULD mean a senior A or maybe even B category instructor SHOULD sit in through all briefings, do about 1 in 5-10 of the flights, and all the way through input his experience into the lesson whilst the fresh C category instructor is still gaining this experience. It also gives the fresh instructor some storys and valuable lessons to pass on.
FROM MY EXPERIENCE all the supervisor is doing is signing the instructor out, without much care or awareness as to what is happening. THIS is the fundamental issue causing all the problems you are mentioning. That's my two cents worth - take it or leave it.
Yes its true some of you may hate the thought of instructing, and certainly for those with no enthusiasm PLEASE DO NOT INSTRUCT... do the industry and yourself a favour! HOWEVER. I would recommend to ANYONE to do the instructor rating even if you never use it. I personally have little (less than 200 hrs) instructing over the years, but doing the instructor rating taught me as much as the leap from PPL to CPL about flying... it really does make you more aware of whats happening, why, and how to really criticise yourself and improve your flying.