Aussie fighter aircraft could see action for first time since Vietnam
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Aussie fighter aircraft could see action for first time since Vietnam
Thurs "Sydney Morning Herald"
Force for Iraq bigger than one sent to Afghanistan
By Tom Allard
January 23 2003
Australia's troop deployment to Iraq, known as Operation Bastille, will be bigger than that sent to Afghanistan and freer to act independently.
The Federal Government has added a range of support personnel and equipment to back the SAS troops.
The RAAF, which played only a marginal role in Afghanistan, has also succeeded in getting more of its personnel involved through the planned deployment of a squadron of 14 F/A 18 aircraft.
They will be part of the initial air campaign that will pave the way for more than 100,000 combat troops to head for Baghdad and secure control of the country.
It would be the first time since the Vietnam War that Australian fighter jets have performed such a role.
The Minister for Defence, Robert Hill, said yesterday pressure on Australia's allies meant there was a preference for Australian support capabilities.
Rather than United States troop-carriers dropping off SAS soldiers, the task will be undertaken by three Chinook helicopters, normally based in Townsville, and a C-130 Hercules.
A contingent of several dozen "quick reaction" commandos from Holsworthy's 4RAR regiment will be on hand to respond if they get into trouble. If they find weapons of mass destruction or come under chemical or biological weapon attack, elements from the Incident Response Regiment will be available to assist.
"The deployment suggests that we will be going in more as a self-contained unit," said a defence analyst with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Aldo Borgu. "The US doesn't like forces to arrive who are totally dependent on them, so that's obviously been taken into account."
The deployment gives Australia's military the opportunity to test manpower and equipment as if it were fighting on its own.
Australia will have its own command centre, probably on board HMAS Kanimbla, although the senior commander will probably be stationed with the US commander, General Tommy Franks.
The chief Australian commander will be able to communicate with HMAS Kanimbla on the overall campaign strategy but the other staff at Australian command will issue the detailed orders to troops, analysts said.
Force for Iraq bigger than one sent to Afghanistan
By Tom Allard
January 23 2003
Australia's troop deployment to Iraq, known as Operation Bastille, will be bigger than that sent to Afghanistan and freer to act independently.
The Federal Government has added a range of support personnel and equipment to back the SAS troops.
The RAAF, which played only a marginal role in Afghanistan, has also succeeded in getting more of its personnel involved through the planned deployment of a squadron of 14 F/A 18 aircraft.
They will be part of the initial air campaign that will pave the way for more than 100,000 combat troops to head for Baghdad and secure control of the country.
It would be the first time since the Vietnam War that Australian fighter jets have performed such a role.
The Minister for Defence, Robert Hill, said yesterday pressure on Australia's allies meant there was a preference for Australian support capabilities.
Rather than United States troop-carriers dropping off SAS soldiers, the task will be undertaken by three Chinook helicopters, normally based in Townsville, and a C-130 Hercules.
A contingent of several dozen "quick reaction" commandos from Holsworthy's 4RAR regiment will be on hand to respond if they get into trouble. If they find weapons of mass destruction or come under chemical or biological weapon attack, elements from the Incident Response Regiment will be available to assist.
"The deployment suggests that we will be going in more as a self-contained unit," said a defence analyst with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Aldo Borgu. "The US doesn't like forces to arrive who are totally dependent on them, so that's obviously been taken into account."
The deployment gives Australia's military the opportunity to test manpower and equipment as if it were fighting on its own.
Australia will have its own command centre, probably on board HMAS Kanimbla, although the senior commander will probably be stationed with the US commander, General Tommy Franks.
The chief Australian commander will be able to communicate with HMAS Kanimbla on the overall campaign strategy but the other staff at Australian command will issue the detailed orders to troops, analysts said.
Yep.
RAAF fighters (Meteor Mk8) saw operational service during the Korean War 1950-1953 ie half a century ago. Sabres were based in Thailand during the earlier stages of the Vietnam conflict but did not see combat.
Looks like the knucks will finally join the ranks of Herc/Caribou/Orion/B707/Army-Navy rotary people who actually do operational flying for a living!
(Flak jacket on.....)
RAAF fighters (Meteor Mk8) saw operational service during the Korean War 1950-1953 ie half a century ago. Sabres were based in Thailand during the earlier stages of the Vietnam conflict but did not see combat.
Looks like the knucks will finally join the ranks of Herc/Caribou/Orion/B707/Army-Navy rotary people who actually do operational flying for a living!
(Flak jacket on.....)
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I suspect it will be more like the action they saw in Afghanistan, where from a little speck in the middle of the Indian Ocean they saw off the might of the Taliban Air Force and forced them to turn tail & flee.
Meanwhile - as is par for the course - the transport and maritime patrol elements of the RAAF, operating from some quasi-friendly, godforsaken place close to the action, will go about their daily routine of being threatened & having potshots taken at them without kicking up any fuss (as long as they don't take enemy fire through the duty free, at least - that would really make them angry).
Meanwhile - as is par for the course - the transport and maritime patrol elements of the RAAF, operating from some quasi-friendly, godforsaken place close to the action, will go about their daily routine of being threatened & having potshots taken at them without kicking up any fuss (as long as they don't take enemy fire through the duty free, at least - that would really make them angry).
Props are for boats!
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Which ever squadron goes over our hearts are with, go and whip there backsides like ya do in Singapore " CHURINGA" everyyear.
RAAF had Rotary in Veitnam as well Double I know you didnt mean to miss it.
Lets hope no one gets hits by FRIENDLY FIRE or ENEMY FIRE.
I know your only joking Chimbu , but "The Battle of Long Tan" and "Then Battle of Balmoral" certainly wasnt the result of friendly fire..
Lets hope its short and sweet and you come back to your loved ones soon. Backing you all the way!
Regards
Sheep
RAAF had Rotary in Veitnam as well Double I know you didnt mean to miss it.
Lets hope no one gets hits by FRIENDLY FIRE or ENEMY FIRE.
I know your only joking Chimbu , but "The Battle of Long Tan" and "Then Battle of Balmoral" certainly wasnt the result of friendly fire..
Lets hope its short and sweet and you come back to your loved ones soon. Backing you all the way!
Regards
Sheep
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It is appropriate that we offer our people our prayers for a safe and speedy return to their loved ones and wish them all the luck they may need, to complement their superb training and commitment.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Concur fully Woomera,
This is not the time or place to be taking swipes at our Armed Forces. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the decision for them being sent, it is vital that we (all) of us show an unwaverring support for them in their job.
To bad the leader of the opposition couldn't subscribe to that philosophy yesterday when HMAS Kanimbla sailed.
Not to mention those spineless pricks waving banners and plackards in the faces of families there to farewell loved ones.
This is not the time or place to be taking swipes at our Armed Forces. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the decision for them being sent, it is vital that we (all) of us show an unwaverring support for them in their job.
To bad the leader of the opposition couldn't subscribe to that philosophy yesterday when HMAS Kanimbla sailed.
Not to mention those spineless pricks waving banners and plackards in the faces of families there to farewell loved ones.
Grandpa Aerotart
Actually SG I was only half joking. Read recently on the MIL forum that a US DoD study found that 17% of Coalition casualties in the Gulf War were from US friendly fire...I think it also said, but without going back and reading it again don't quote me, that 75% of the tanks/vehicles lost were friendly fire as well.
I also offer my unreserved support for our forces deploying to the Gulf and fervently hope that if they are forced to fight that they all come home alive...perhaps if the US forces showed the same fire discipline as Commonwealth Forces that might be more gauranteed
Chuck.
I also offer my unreserved support for our forces deploying to the Gulf and fervently hope that if they are forced to fight that they all come home alive...perhaps if the US forces showed the same fire discipline as Commonwealth Forces that might be more gauranteed
Chuck.
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chimbu
I don't specifically set out to defend the yanks however let's look at this objectively: Friendly fire has been a terrible part of warfare ever since the cavemen first picked up clubs and started swinging in an all-out melee against the next tribe. However, there were fewer 'friendly-fire' casualties 'per-capita' in the 1991 "beach party" then any other war the US was involved in previously.
17 % ?
75 % ?
Maybe so, but in view of the extremely low number of TOTAL casualties sustained, (compared to other conflicts where the enemy stood and fought) I'm not surprised the ratio of FF to enemy fire is so high. Are you? No that ANY of this makes the bereaved loved ones feel any better, of course. ANY casualty is an awful thing.
Anyone who's been there and experienced the fog of war and seen how easy it might be to make a mistake, feel free to hook into the yanks' war-fighting abilities. As for me I'll just wave the flag and hope the inevitable f^ck ups, on anyone's part, are kept to a minimum. And I sincerely hope the lads have their NBC kit handy.
Good hunting, guys.
I don't specifically set out to defend the yanks however let's look at this objectively: Friendly fire has been a terrible part of warfare ever since the cavemen first picked up clubs and started swinging in an all-out melee against the next tribe. However, there were fewer 'friendly-fire' casualties 'per-capita' in the 1991 "beach party" then any other war the US was involved in previously.
17 % ?
75 % ?
Maybe so, but in view of the extremely low number of TOTAL casualties sustained, (compared to other conflicts where the enemy stood and fought) I'm not surprised the ratio of FF to enemy fire is so high. Are you? No that ANY of this makes the bereaved loved ones feel any better, of course. ANY casualty is an awful thing.
Anyone who's been there and experienced the fog of war and seen how easy it might be to make a mistake, feel free to hook into the yanks' war-fighting abilities. As for me I'll just wave the flag and hope the inevitable f^ck ups, on anyone's part, are kept to a minimum. And I sincerely hope the lads have their NBC kit handy.
Good hunting, guys.
Props are for boats!
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I agree one ball,
Chimbus "Statistic Simplistics" make it look awfull, but if you look at the total number casualties of the opposing forces it is very small. And there is no data on their Friendly fire incidents is there.
It was no doubt the 1991 Gulf War was a one sided affair, and the Freindly Fire that did occurr came under heavy scrutiniy.
Friendly fire is a sad consequence of war and will remain one, it is only since the advent of modern NEWS REPORTING, ie. CNN ,that we hear of it at all ,or earlier than in previous Campaigns.
I suspect if we had a glass ball, the percentages from previous campaigns would have been much higher Chimbu. But such is life, we will never know.
Freindly fire comes multiple forms, the heavily publicised rocketing of freindly Armour, to the unpublicised, Army Cook accidently discharging his M-16 into his colleague thigh, during an evening meal. Thats whats called a "U.D." unauthorised discharge. UDs in Commonwealth Forces happen aswell, both during Exercise and War, another sad fact. Its even changed the way people operate weapons. ie, the incident in Somalia with Australian Troops.
Regards
sheep
"Per Ardua Ad Astra"
Way to go
Chimbus "Statistic Simplistics" make it look awfull, but if you look at the total number casualties of the opposing forces it is very small. And there is no data on their Friendly fire incidents is there.
It was no doubt the 1991 Gulf War was a one sided affair, and the Freindly Fire that did occurr came under heavy scrutiniy.
Friendly fire is a sad consequence of war and will remain one, it is only since the advent of modern NEWS REPORTING, ie. CNN ,that we hear of it at all ,or earlier than in previous Campaigns.
I suspect if we had a glass ball, the percentages from previous campaigns would have been much higher Chimbu. But such is life, we will never know.
Freindly fire comes multiple forms, the heavily publicised rocketing of freindly Armour, to the unpublicised, Army Cook accidently discharging his M-16 into his colleague thigh, during an evening meal. Thats whats called a "U.D." unauthorised discharge. UDs in Commonwealth Forces happen aswell, both during Exercise and War, another sad fact. Its even changed the way people operate weapons. ie, the incident in Somalia with Australian Troops.
Regards
sheep
"Per Ardua Ad Astra"
Way to go
To the doubters of the, at times, American Wild West fire disicpline I would invite you to study history or talk to your Grandfather!
We have been on the receiving of American friendly fire for some time.
There is a high incidence of American blue on blue probably due a reliance on firepower. Improvements in technology only compounded by the advancement of their manoeuvre warfare.
From the history vaults - B25s bombing Aussies at Buna and the launching of air-air missiles at a destoyer off Vietnam. My dig at the yanks not complete without reference to their shooting of our troops in Brisbane during WW2.
Good luck to the Hornet guys off to Al Udeid. A very dry place in more ways than one so try and import a few slabs in that handy luggage compartment!
We have been on the receiving of American friendly fire for some time.
There is a high incidence of American blue on blue probably due a reliance on firepower. Improvements in technology only compounded by the advancement of their manoeuvre warfare.
From the history vaults - B25s bombing Aussies at Buna and the launching of air-air missiles at a destoyer off Vietnam. My dig at the yanks not complete without reference to their shooting of our troops in Brisbane during WW2.
Good luck to the Hornet guys off to Al Udeid. A very dry place in more ways than one so try and import a few slabs in that handy luggage compartment!
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History - learn from past mistakes?:
Forchristsake! - the world can learn from past mistakes in letting tyrants have their own way for too long.
Hitler/Saddam both A$$holes from the shallow end of the gene pool.
I resent the fact that brave Aussie,Yank & Brit servicemen/women have to go out and do a job that the rest of the world (UN) lacked the balls to do over the past decade.
...and while the momentum is there - North Korea should be next. maybe then we can have a few years peace until the next S.O.B. comes along.
As previously mentioned, our guys deserve all the support we can give. Safe journey.
Forchristsake! - the world can learn from past mistakes in letting tyrants have their own way for too long.
Hitler/Saddam both A$$holes from the shallow end of the gene pool.
I resent the fact that brave Aussie,Yank & Brit servicemen/women have to go out and do a job that the rest of the world (UN) lacked the balls to do over the past decade.
...and while the momentum is there - North Korea should be next. maybe then we can have a few years peace until the next S.O.B. comes along.
As previously mentioned, our guys deserve all the support we can give. Safe journey.
I hope you get the chance to hit them hard fella's,take out saddam and as many of his supporters as you can. Extra points if you can dispatch those 'westerners' who are going to act as human shields.
Regards, hoss
Regards, hoss
Last edited by hoss; 27th Jan 2003 at 02:40.
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Gnadenburg,
The answer is in John Howard's recent references to "Australia's long-term interests" which translates to (i) maintain our first place in the queue for a free-trade agreement with the U.S. and (ii) security support - ANZUS no longer exists, it's now AUS.
We have to pay our dues but the politicans won't be in the front line - George Dubwya was too busy protecting the skies over Texas to attend the SVN show.
The answer is in John Howard's recent references to "Australia's long-term interests" which translates to (i) maintain our first place in the queue for a free-trade agreement with the U.S. and (ii) security support - ANZUS no longer exists, it's now AUS.
We have to pay our dues but the politicans won't be in the front line - George Dubwya was too busy protecting the skies over Texas to attend the SVN show.
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I fully support our troops all the way, it would be un-Australian not to do so. The thing I do not support is the US attacking Iraq without a UN resolution authorising force. As I understand it if the US attack Iraq without the blessing of the UN they will be breaking international law.
If this law is broken then that will give any other country the right to have a crack at who ever they wish when ever they wish.
The US should release their so called evidence to help the inspectors out. If it is found that Iraq do have weapons well lets go and do the job once and for all, finish it and get rid of this basta^d!!
Ash767
If this law is broken then that will give any other country the right to have a crack at who ever they wish when ever they wish.
The US should release their so called evidence to help the inspectors out. If it is found that Iraq do have weapons well lets go and do the job once and for all, finish it and get rid of this basta^d!!
Ash767
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From Weekend Newspapers;
.........documents smuggled out of Iraq indicated President Saddam Hussein was preparing to use chemical weapons.
The papers, provided to the British Government by members of the Iraqi opposition, showed Saddam had issued members of his elite Republican Guard protective suits and the drug atropine, an antidote to the deadly nerve gases VX and sarin.
How much evidence do they need?.
The papers, provided to the British Government by members of the Iraqi opposition, showed Saddam had issued members of his elite Republican Guard protective suits and the drug atropine, an antidote to the deadly nerve gases VX and sarin.
How much evidence do they need?.