AOPA Elections
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I would support Marjorie, having met her I have a deal of admiration for her; Perhaps she would like to comment (if she is on the list of nominated spokespersons), perhaps also she may explain the situation to date.
I can't access the AOPA web site for information (although I haven't tried today).
One thing however, the 2 Bill's and the remaining board have put a lot of energy into our lot and don't deserve to be thrown on the scrap heap.
If you have a cattle dog who is a bit severe on sheep, you get a sheep dog and leave the "bluey" for his intended work.
I can't think of anyone who would put the work in of Hamilton for example in his nominated sphere of expertise, perhaps he is a bit abrasive for say, public or CASA relations.
Obviously someone else should do this job then.
Either way, there is no room at the top for factions or clashes of personality.
They all should piss or get off the pot.
I can't access the AOPA web site for information (although I haven't tried today).
One thing however, the 2 Bill's and the remaining board have put a lot of energy into our lot and don't deserve to be thrown on the scrap heap.
If you have a cattle dog who is a bit severe on sheep, you get a sheep dog and leave the "bluey" for his intended work.
I can't think of anyone who would put the work in of Hamilton for example in his nominated sphere of expertise, perhaps he is a bit abrasive for say, public or CASA relations.
Obviously someone else should do this job then.
Either way, there is no room at the top for factions or clashes of personality.
They all should piss or get off the pot.
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From my limited understanding of corporate management, the directors are liable for the stuffups for some 12 months after the demise of the company. (?). Therefor;
Bailing out won't achieve immunity from any sh*tfight that may evolve in the courts by the directors/(board)?????
As far as the HIH similarity goes, (seems like a red herring) I believe also that the Ansett frequent flyers were not granted creditor status, so where do we get a debit on the credit sheet???????
Given my inane curiosity, I wonder what has been acheievd by a 40% (or thereabouts) defection, if the show is still on the road.
Directors liabiliy insurance seems like a waste of money in an organisation like AOPA when incorporated associations (read that as clubs), could be set up as chapters (read that as States), with an executive geographically removed from it's power base, (no not Canberra), to Alice Springs, where the Australian International Airport should be situated;
with it's "hub's".
I'm getting a headache
I hope someone responds from AOPA.
Bailing out won't achieve immunity from any sh*tfight that may evolve in the courts by the directors/(board)?????
As far as the HIH similarity goes, (seems like a red herring) I believe also that the Ansett frequent flyers were not granted creditor status, so where do we get a debit on the credit sheet???????
Given my inane curiosity, I wonder what has been acheievd by a 40% (or thereabouts) defection, if the show is still on the road.
Directors liabiliy insurance seems like a waste of money in an organisation like AOPA when incorporated associations (read that as clubs), could be set up as chapters (read that as States), with an executive geographically removed from it's power base, (no not Canberra), to Alice Springs, where the Australian International Airport should be situated;
with it's "hub's".
I'm getting a headache
I hope someone responds from AOPA.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I have been following this thread for the last couple of days, and assume that there are many AOPA members who use this site. Unfortunately, due to issues of potential liability (which are totally unrelated to any particular members' postings, but of a more general nature) I have taken the action of temporarily closing down the AOPA site. I have written an update on the situation for publication to members in the next AOPA magazine, which should be ready for the printers within a day or so.
I note also that there is some consternation amongst members as to AOPA's financial situation at the moment, and in respect of staffing and directors. AOPA is trading as usual, and there is no issue at the present time about AOPA not being able to pay its accounts. I have recently taken on the positions of Secretary, Treasurer, and Director responsible for staff matters, until the next AGM which will be held at Murray Bridge on the weekend of 24-25 May.
The Directors are working towards a structure which will advance AOPA, but of course the real strength of AOPA is its members. I urge those of you who are not members to consider joining in order that we may fortify our position with CASA at this very difficult time for G.A. in Australia. Solidarity is the only effective way to ensure we remain a force to be reckoned with, and hence prevent a re-write which may otherwise be too costly and procedurally flawed for many in G.A. to bear.
Marjorie Pagani
Director AOPA.
I note also that there is some consternation amongst members as to AOPA's financial situation at the moment, and in respect of staffing and directors. AOPA is trading as usual, and there is no issue at the present time about AOPA not being able to pay its accounts. I have recently taken on the positions of Secretary, Treasurer, and Director responsible for staff matters, until the next AGM which will be held at Murray Bridge on the weekend of 24-25 May.
The Directors are working towards a structure which will advance AOPA, but of course the real strength of AOPA is its members. I urge those of you who are not members to consider joining in order that we may fortify our position with CASA at this very difficult time for G.A. in Australia. Solidarity is the only effective way to ensure we remain a force to be reckoned with, and hence prevent a re-write which may otherwise be too costly and procedurally flawed for many in G.A. to bear.
Marjorie Pagani
Director AOPA.
2B1ASK1... Certainly the current state of affairs is not providing any confidence in AOPA, but then to push it all under the table is likely to do much worse. We must have AOPA and it must be managed well. On top of that we need people who are able to represent the Association in a responsible and respected manner. AOPA have failed in most of these departments of late. And with GA the worst it has ever been in this country, can we afford that? - no way.
We certainly have a management problem and from what I see both Hamilton and Lyons would not survive any vote of confidence if the whole story was placed before the membership. Why do they seem to be placing their ego in front of the Association? To not discuss these matters in open forum such as this will only make things much worse.
Nothing less than a complete spill and an EGM will provide what is necessary to rebuild the Association. I would guess that the insurer would again cover the directors if they were confident in a new board and what was proposed. That would also provide the necessary confidence in members to renew and for non members to join/renew.
We certainly have a management problem and from what I see both Hamilton and Lyons would not survive any vote of confidence if the whole story was placed before the membership. Why do they seem to be placing their ego in front of the Association? To not discuss these matters in open forum such as this will only make things much worse.
Nothing less than a complete spill and an EGM will provide what is necessary to rebuild the Association. I would guess that the insurer would again cover the directors if they were confident in a new board and what was proposed. That would also provide the necessary confidence in members to renew and for non members to join/renew.
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cogwheel
Don't get me wrong I do agree with what most of you are saying but still we must be carefull that at the end of it all we have an organisation left to fight for. Its ok for those of us that have been in aviation for a number of years to know the chaff from the feed but a hell of alot of new comers read this lets be carefull not to frighten them away because in truth when it is all repaired they will be needed for it to go forward.
Don't get me wrong I do agree with what most of you are saying but still we must be carefull that at the end of it all we have an organisation left to fight for. Its ok for those of us that have been in aviation for a number of years to know the chaff from the feed but a hell of alot of new comers read this lets be carefull not to frighten them away because in truth when it is all repaired they will be needed for it to go forward.
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The way the Board is now structured, with only Pagani, McKeown and Pike having a say in the day to day running of the office will ensure AOPA's survival. I have absolute confidence in all three.
Perhaps it took some bad things to happen before the change, so what. The change has happened.
Now the members need to decide whether they are prepared to step into the breech and support AOPA because without AOPA, CASA will go ape (or more ape than they are already).
Perhaps it took some bad things to happen before the change, so what. The change has happened.
Now the members need to decide whether they are prepared to step into the breech and support AOPA because without AOPA, CASA will go ape (or more ape than they are already).
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Children, lets try and sort this out.
1) We have a) Pagani
b)Hamilton
c)Lyon
d)Pike
e)McKeown
f)Kennedy
g)Rudd
2) We have not
a)Kelly
b)Kerans
3) Silenced by decree (?) are
a)Hamilton
b)Lyon
c)Kennedy
d)Rudd
4) A steering committee of
a)Pagani
b)Pike
c)McKeown
5) Of the aforementioned 7, three have taken a controlling interest in the day to day running of affairs.
6) Did the 7 vote this way ?
7) Are the remaining non silenced three a quorum ?
8) If threre is an AGM in May, and the bills are being paid, the income exceeds the expenditure, the steering committee are doing the job, there is back up from the other four, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM ??
9) Of note to Snarek, do the words, "bloody lawyers" and "Qantas pilot's" sound familiar.
I implore you all to let this matter ride until May, and then my friends, (I say this in the full meaning of the dictionary), put up your candidates, let them run their campaigns, support them, but don't desparage the incumbents to the extent that the very genises of AOPA is compromised.
If you do, I am certain, the voters will see through you.
If there is a problem with accounting ideologies, let it all come out prior to May.
There are people out there who think AOPA is a joke and people like me who are trying to keep the knots tied, another joke, but the simple fact is that
NOBODY IN AVIATION CAN AFFORD NOT TO BE A MEMBER OF AOPA.
It's time to close ranks, there is no room for factions AFTER the elections, so lets get things sorted BEFORE
BUT
NOT BY COMPROMISING OUR FUTURE MEMBERSHIP BASE WHO, BELIEVE IT OR NOT ARE THE GRASS ROOTS OF AVIATION IN AUST.
1) We have a) Pagani
b)Hamilton
c)Lyon
d)Pike
e)McKeown
f)Kennedy
g)Rudd
2) We have not
a)Kelly
b)Kerans
3) Silenced by decree (?) are
a)Hamilton
b)Lyon
c)Kennedy
d)Rudd
4) A steering committee of
a)Pagani
b)Pike
c)McKeown
5) Of the aforementioned 7, three have taken a controlling interest in the day to day running of affairs.
6) Did the 7 vote this way ?
7) Are the remaining non silenced three a quorum ?
8) If threre is an AGM in May, and the bills are being paid, the income exceeds the expenditure, the steering committee are doing the job, there is back up from the other four, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM ??
9) Of note to Snarek, do the words, "bloody lawyers" and "Qantas pilot's" sound familiar.
I implore you all to let this matter ride until May, and then my friends, (I say this in the full meaning of the dictionary), put up your candidates, let them run their campaigns, support them, but don't desparage the incumbents to the extent that the very genises of AOPA is compromised.
If you do, I am certain, the voters will see through you.
If there is a problem with accounting ideologies, let it all come out prior to May.
There are people out there who think AOPA is a joke and people like me who are trying to keep the knots tied, another joke, but the simple fact is that
NOBODY IN AVIATION CAN AFFORD NOT TO BE A MEMBER OF AOPA.
It's time to close ranks, there is no room for factions AFTER the elections, so lets get things sorted BEFORE
BUT
NOT BY COMPROMISING OUR FUTURE MEMBERSHIP BASE WHO, BELIEVE IT OR NOT ARE THE GRASS ROOTS OF AVIATION IN AUST.
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AT LAST !!
The post from Marjorie Pagani is the most direct and mature, responsible statement that I have seen from an AOPA director form many years. And it comes at a time when such clear speaking and leadership is required. As a long time member, she will have my support to overcome the many problems.
No more ego driven ramblings from those who fail to see how much damage they have done over the past years. Good riddance. (and keep them locked out!)
I assume that Bill Pike is still in the sick bay, but having said many a time that he wanted out, I guess he now has a very competent replacement. Well done Bill, but let's see the handover without delay.
Go do it Marjorie!
The post from Marjorie Pagani is the most direct and mature, responsible statement that I have seen from an AOPA director form many years. And it comes at a time when such clear speaking and leadership is required. As a long time member, she will have my support to overcome the many problems.
No more ego driven ramblings from those who fail to see how much damage they have done over the past years. Good riddance. (and keep them locked out!)
I assume that Bill Pike is still in the sick bay, but having said many a time that he wanted out, I guess he now has a very competent replacement. Well done Bill, but let's see the handover without delay.
Go do it Marjorie!
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AOPA has a big problem that only the members can rectify:
As I understand it, Lyon & Hamilton no longer have the confidence of their fellow board members. All board members other than Lyon/Hamilton have agreed to present themselves to the members for re-election, and in my opinion this can only be because their egos are being placed ahead of their constituency and the future viability of AOPA.
If Lyon/Hamilton remain, I'd be surprised if current worthwhile and talented board members would either continue or put themselves up for re-election.
With this background and the refusal of Directors' Liability insurance, it is going to be difficult to get anyone to stand.
AOPA is going to need a reform board that has the full backing of the membership if it is to survive this crisis.
Russell
As I understand it, Lyon & Hamilton no longer have the confidence of their fellow board members. All board members other than Lyon/Hamilton have agreed to present themselves to the members for re-election, and in my opinion this can only be because their egos are being placed ahead of their constituency and the future viability of AOPA.
If Lyon/Hamilton remain, I'd be surprised if current worthwhile and talented board members would either continue or put themselves up for re-election.
With this background and the refusal of Directors' Liability insurance, it is going to be difficult to get anyone to stand.
AOPA is going to need a reform board that has the full backing of the membership if it is to survive this crisis.
Russell
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The AOPA posts seem to have become somewhat ubiquitous overnight, (from the latin term ubique, which in the sense of the artillery regiments, as axiom would well know, means 'all over the bl@@dy place')
Replying to a post axiom made elsewhere about 'leaving it be until the AGM', that's fine. Except Hamilton and Lyon are refusing to stand.
So in my view not even the members can really have their say and the problem remains.
It is interesting that the last time there was a real election Lyon came last
Perhaps the members ain't so dumb after all.
But then, there ain't no reason why the members can't spill the Board at the election and then appoint a caretaker Board pending proper and full elections.
I can feel a motion coming on.
AK
Replying to a post axiom made elsewhere about 'leaving it be until the AGM', that's fine. Except Hamilton and Lyon are refusing to stand.
So in my view not even the members can really have their say and the problem remains.
It is interesting that the last time there was a real election Lyon came last
Perhaps the members ain't so dumb after all.But then, there ain't no reason why the members can't spill the Board at the election and then appoint a caretaker Board pending proper and full elections.
I can feel a motion coming on.
AK
AOPA Needs Our Help!!! Part 2
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(copied from an elsewhere)
The AOPA posts seem to have become somewhat ubiquitous overnight, (from the latin term ubique, which in the sense of the artillery regiments, as axiom would well know, means 'all over the bl@@dy place')
Replying to a post axiom made about 'leaving it be until the AGM', that's fine. Except it seems, Hamilton and Lyon are refusing to stand.
So in my view not even the members can really have their say and the problem remains.
It is interesting that the last time there was a real election Lyon came last Perhaps the members ain't so dumb after all.
But then, there ain't no reason why the members can't spill the Board at the election and then appoint a caretaker Board pending proper and full elections.
I can feel a motion coming on.
AK
The AOPA posts seem to have become somewhat ubiquitous overnight, (from the latin term ubique, which in the sense of the artillery regiments, as axiom would well know, means 'all over the bl@@dy place')
Replying to a post axiom made about 'leaving it be until the AGM', that's fine. Except it seems, Hamilton and Lyon are refusing to stand.
So in my view not even the members can really have their say and the problem remains.
It is interesting that the last time there was a real election Lyon came last Perhaps the members ain't so dumb after all.
But then, there ain't no reason why the members can't spill the Board at the election and then appoint a caretaker Board pending proper and full elections.
I can feel a motion coming on.
AK
Woomera et el. This morning these AOPA posts were all cut about and even appeared on the Reporting Points page for a while (!!)
During this flurry of activity, I made a post regarding all these changes and obviously during that period the Woomera's were also doing their thing. I found the lost post on the RP page and went back to correct my earlier post, but it was locked! It vanished from the RP page about the same time.
What I did notice was a post from Woomera on this subject which I believed was very appropriate and contained some very wise words from the pinnacle of wisdom. Myself and one other in fact had responded to it - but now its not to be found anywhere. Did you guys delete it?
I think it was so good, that maybe you should repost it for all to see.
[and no, I did not start this thread]
During this flurry of activity, I made a post regarding all these changes and obviously during that period the Woomera's were also doing their thing. I found the lost post on the RP page and went back to correct my earlier post, but it was locked! It vanished from the RP page about the same time.
What I did notice was a post from Woomera on this subject which I believed was very appropriate and contained some very wise words from the pinnacle of wisdom. Myself and one other in fact had responded to it - but now its not to be found anywhere. Did you guys delete it?
I think it was so good, that maybe you should repost it for all to see.
[and no, I did not start this thread]
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My dear schitzophrenic friends, ulm and /or snarek;
You really have it in for these two don't you?
Haven't you got anything good to say that may moderate the apparant bile that we are hearing on a daily basis?
Remember, If you have acquired such intimate knowledge of affairs over the course of your AOPA involvement, but do not practice it's use, It's a bit like ploughing your land and leaving it unsown. A waste of time and effort.
Perhaps there are people with good and intelligent intent in particular fields that should not be thrown on the scrap heap, but managed for the good of an organisation that is needed for all our sake?
Perhaps knowledge is being misconstrued as an ego trip.
Perhaps we are so deaf that we are refusing to hear, (perhaps)?
You really have it in for these two don't you?
Haven't you got anything good to say that may moderate the apparant bile that we are hearing on a daily basis?
Remember, If you have acquired such intimate knowledge of affairs over the course of your AOPA involvement, but do not practice it's use, It's a bit like ploughing your land and leaving it unsown. A waste of time and effort.
Perhaps there are people with good and intelligent intent in particular fields that should not be thrown on the scrap heap, but managed for the good of an organisation that is needed for all our sake?
Perhaps knowledge is being misconstrued as an ego trip.
Perhaps we are so deaf that we are refusing to hear, (perhaps)?
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As an AOPA Forum contributor, I have every hope that AOPA will quickly resolve its situation - preferably with a spill of Directors and an EGM to clean up the current mess. Unless a unified team - capable of criticism without warfare - results, this will drag on.
What may be needed perhaps is less AOPA Directors - to simplify the decision making process - and several "technical specialists" to do the necessary defence against our benevolent big brothers at CASA and ATSB who intend to resolve aviation safety by putting GA out of business through regulation.
I note Marjorie's comment on "solidarity". At present I am at odds with the ATSB who have endeavoured to use the Aust federal police to pressure and gag me over a colloquial sentence in my criticism on the AOPA Forum of a senior ATSB officer's media reported comments on black boxes in light aircraft. If "solidarity" means AOPA batting on my side, I have not seen it. If it means me contributing $100 in the absence of AOPA support, that's something they will not see either! Hopefully I can expect support after the management and financial position of AOPA is resolved.
Cheers
What may be needed perhaps is less AOPA Directors - to simplify the decision making process - and several "technical specialists" to do the necessary defence against our benevolent big brothers at CASA and ATSB who intend to resolve aviation safety by putting GA out of business through regulation.
I note Marjorie's comment on "solidarity". At present I am at odds with the ATSB who have endeavoured to use the Aust federal police to pressure and gag me over a colloquial sentence in my criticism on the AOPA Forum of a senior ATSB officer's media reported comments on black boxes in light aircraft. If "solidarity" means AOPA batting on my side, I have not seen it. If it means me contributing $100 in the absence of AOPA support, that's something they will not see either! Hopefully I can expect support after the management and financial position of AOPA is resolved.
Cheers
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Not in my Battery and not while I was FO.
I said on the another post, "youv'e really got it in for these two haven't you?
I take it Hamilton has done absolutely nothing for Australian aviation.
Lyon is simply in your way and an annoyance to you.
Even Pike doesn't meet with your requirements.
Rudd is apparantly irrelevant.
Marjorie is the answer to all our prayers.
Kennedy doesn't exist.
But McKeown is OK.
2 out of 7 seems like a good start to me, why didn't you ask on your poll if the remainder are relevant?
We were getting on so well too.
I said on the another post, "youv'e really got it in for these two haven't you?
I take it Hamilton has done absolutely nothing for Australian aviation.
Lyon is simply in your way and an annoyance to you.
Even Pike doesn't meet with your requirements.
Rudd is apparantly irrelevant.
Marjorie is the answer to all our prayers.
Kennedy doesn't exist.
But McKeown is OK.
2 out of 7 seems like a good start to me, why didn't you ask on your poll if the remainder are relevant?
We were getting on so well too.
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Antechinus, lets face it, Hamilton may not be a great people person but he has done more for GA and AOPA, put in more effortand is more knowledgeable than you ever will be, is that why you are so against him?
Bart
Bart
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Axiom. I didn't think we had fallen out again, just are having a difference of opinion.
If we have fallen out I'd remind you of the story behind the white lanyard, but since we haven't, I won't.
I don't mention Kennedy, or even Pike, because I have no gripe with them. Kennedy to me seems level headed and does what a Board member is supposed to do, represent a point of view.
I like Pike. But I also find him to be the sort of person that p!sses people off up front then tries to fix it. That approach clearly isn't working for AOPA.
I have never taken issue with the amount of work Hamilton does. What I take issue with is what I perceive to be flights of fancy presented as fact, 'Board Policy' being whatever Hamilton dreams up on the day and certain expenditures and decisions about the office made without my knowledge or support and in my view that of the Board as well.
I personally have no time for Lyon or Rudd.
But I ask, if Hamilton (or Lyon for that matter) are so capable then why won't they stand for a full and proper election???
Brianh said what has been said before and i agree. We probably need a smaller Board and a few ex-officio members (like Bill Hamilton) doing the important work he does and then reporting through someone who can bring it all (and the industry) together.
That person is Marjorie Pagani.
If we have fallen out I'd remind you of the story behind the white lanyard, but since we haven't, I won't.
I don't mention Kennedy, or even Pike, because I have no gripe with them. Kennedy to me seems level headed and does what a Board member is supposed to do, represent a point of view.
I like Pike. But I also find him to be the sort of person that p!sses people off up front then tries to fix it. That approach clearly isn't working for AOPA.
I have never taken issue with the amount of work Hamilton does. What I take issue with is what I perceive to be flights of fancy presented as fact, 'Board Policy' being whatever Hamilton dreams up on the day and certain expenditures and decisions about the office made without my knowledge or support and in my view that of the Board as well.
I personally have no time for Lyon or Rudd.
But I ask, if Hamilton (or Lyon for that matter) are so capable then why won't they stand for a full and proper election???
Brianh said what has been said before and i agree. We probably need a smaller Board and a few ex-officio members (like Bill Hamilton) doing the important work he does and then reporting through someone who can bring it all (and the industry) together.
That person is Marjorie Pagani.
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Bart.... all that may be true, I would give him top marks for effort. But it is of little use if fellow board members won't/can't work with him. In my opinion, Hamilton is a one man band who seriously lacks skills to work in a team. Maybe Bill should set up his own outfit like Boyd?
And if Hamilton is so good, the members would rapidly vote him back in. So why is he and Lyon refusing to spill when all the other directors see this as being the only way to break the impasse?
Russell
And if Hamilton is so good, the members would rapidly vote him back in. So why is he and Lyon refusing to spill when all the other directors see this as being the only way to break the impasse?
Russell