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I do know one thing and that is ,aviation in Australia has been put back to pre 1966 days.
The AFAP has been effectively destroyed as a pilots union and that flying is no longer an attractive career in Aus.
The main players have made their profits and now departed.
There may have been many things that needed fixing,but that is same for most of our way of doing things down here.
The AFAP helped build a safe ,good career structure ,from GA through to the domestic and international scene.
Today,aviation is a shambles and to listen to those people who stole jobs during an industrial dispute,makes me want to thow up.
They try to justify what they did;well now having helped destroy what was once a great way of life,they should pull their heads in,because everyone lost at the end of the day,especially aviation.
The AFAP has been effectively destroyed as a pilots union and that flying is no longer an attractive career in Aus.
The main players have made their profits and now departed.
There may have been many things that needed fixing,but that is same for most of our way of doing things down here.
The AFAP helped build a safe ,good career structure ,from GA through to the domestic and international scene.
Today,aviation is a shambles and to listen to those people who stole jobs during an industrial dispute,makes me want to thow up.
They try to justify what they did;well now having helped destroy what was once a great way of life,they should pull their heads in,because everyone lost at the end of the day,especially aviation.
Join Date: May 2001
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This fiasco just won't go away will it? Just as someone said until the last one has died....very very sad.
The pilots union were the first target in the crackdown on the unions in Oz...easy targets, and they played right into the hands of their protagonists by resigning...yes I have heard all about the fact that it was necessary yada yada yada..
The fact is that unionism had had it's day, collectively holding a gun to the head of the employer was a 60's tactic and was ripe for a change.
Others have said it far better than I can....move on, bearing a grudge and hatred for others is not the way ahead...have a look at the mess in the middle east, india/pakistan, and the recent horrors in Bali.
Puts this miserable little footnote in history into the category that it belongs.
Someone else said also that if the pilots had stood together that it would have all worked out nicely...what absolute rubbish. If you had all stuck together there would have been 1500 or so looking for work elsewhere not just 1300...you challenge the government of the day (regardless of it's reasons) you will lose, simple really.
Then I suppose, you would have all sat hunched over coffees all over the world and bitched about someone else occupying your God given birthright..ie a seat up the front of an aircraft.
enough already..........
The pilots union were the first target in the crackdown on the unions in Oz...easy targets, and they played right into the hands of their protagonists by resigning...yes I have heard all about the fact that it was necessary yada yada yada..
The fact is that unionism had had it's day, collectively holding a gun to the head of the employer was a 60's tactic and was ripe for a change.
Others have said it far better than I can....move on, bearing a grudge and hatred for others is not the way ahead...have a look at the mess in the middle east, india/pakistan, and the recent horrors in Bali.
Puts this miserable little footnote in history into the category that it belongs.
Someone else said also that if the pilots had stood together that it would have all worked out nicely...what absolute rubbish. If you had all stuck together there would have been 1500 or so looking for work elsewhere not just 1300...you challenge the government of the day (regardless of it's reasons) you will lose, simple really.
Then I suppose, you would have all sat hunched over coffees all over the world and bitched about someone else occupying your God given birthright..ie a seat up the front of an aircraft.
enough already..........
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diving duck,
How true.
Whilst I agree with fugitive that the AFAP did some good work; tech committee etc, they also continued with an old tactic that was a proven failure with Maggie Thatcher some years prior. Don't hold a gun to the head of the PM!! Thuggery doesn't work, nor can it be allowed to work.
Take on town hall, and you're a goner. I don't mean local govt town hall, I mean the Federal Government town hall.
If you want to fight with the big dogs, you have to be able to pi$$ in the tall grass. The AFAP couldn't. All they could do was pi$$ up $12M or thereabouts on a lost cause continuing to flog a dead horse so that they didn't look so stupid, or more stupid, trying to convince the members that the cause wasn't dead.
It was dead from the minute we resigned because the tactic was to serve the resignations on the company the next day, regardless of what the members were told the previous evening.
How true.
Whilst I agree with fugitive that the AFAP did some good work; tech committee etc, they also continued with an old tactic that was a proven failure with Maggie Thatcher some years prior. Don't hold a gun to the head of the PM!! Thuggery doesn't work, nor can it be allowed to work.
Take on town hall, and you're a goner. I don't mean local govt town hall, I mean the Federal Government town hall.
If you want to fight with the big dogs, you have to be able to pi$$ in the tall grass. The AFAP couldn't. All they could do was pi$$ up $12M or thereabouts on a lost cause continuing to flog a dead horse so that they didn't look so stupid, or more stupid, trying to convince the members that the cause wasn't dead.
It was dead from the minute we resigned because the tactic was to serve the resignations on the company the next day, regardless of what the members were told the previous evening.
Last edited by CitizenXX; 16th Oct 2002 at 04:39.
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diving duck you are incorrect
there only would have been 1000 or so looking for work because 500 had already found work overseas.
Someone else said also that if the pilots had stood together that it would have all worked out nicely...what absolute rubbish. If you had all stuck together there would have been 1500 or so looking for work
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how true...
Amos, never a truer word was spoken....and boring just about sums up the 89 threads over the past few years.
TSI...concur, how stupid of me not to have been able to count
To think that Aussies have the gall to call Poms whingers....
TSI...concur, how stupid of me not to have been able to count
To think that Aussies have the gall to call Poms whingers....
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divingduck,
You may not be a duck after all. Perhaps you're a goose! Such a silly error. You see what happens when the 89ers don't agree with your impeccable logic - tip a bucket of $hit on you. Very poor form, but the only form they have, unfortunately.
But, TSI is right. 500 of the solid citizens had already deserted their 'mates' here fighting the good fight, and bolted overseas to get the plum jobs first. They showed great consideration and supported the cause - the lost cause.
Their bolting early in the fight showed what they thought of the AFAP's chances. Zero, zip, zilch, sweet fanny adams, or whatever you call 'zero'.
Maybe the AFAP were all gooses, or is that geese? Maybe we were geese/gooses for resigning.
You may not be a duck after all. Perhaps you're a goose! Such a silly error. You see what happens when the 89ers don't agree with your impeccable logic - tip a bucket of $hit on you. Very poor form, but the only form they have, unfortunately.
But, TSI is right. 500 of the solid citizens had already deserted their 'mates' here fighting the good fight, and bolted overseas to get the plum jobs first. They showed great consideration and supported the cause - the lost cause.
Their bolting early in the fight showed what they thought of the AFAP's chances. Zero, zip, zilch, sweet fanny adams, or whatever you call 'zero'.
Maybe the AFAP were all gooses, or is that geese? Maybe we were geese/gooses for resigning.
Last edited by CitizenXX; 17th Oct 2002 at 10:27.
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Chheeeezas, CitX, you can’t have it both ways. One minute you’re prattling on about those dastardly 89ers who went overseas ‘stealing’ the jobs of local FOs and mouthing off to all and sundry about how they were going to take back their old jobs the moment the Union fixed the problem at home, and now they left Oz ‘early’ because they had no faith in the Union.
I think you’ve just got to face the fact that you are what even you know you are and no amount of re-writing of history or rationalisation is ever going to change the fact. The fact that ‘only’ around 50% of those who were not involved think you are what you are is mute testimony that most people don’t read beyond the headline and the first paragraph of a news article that doesn’t affect them personally. Accepting that last statement as a fact, you and your kind should be seriously concerned that the other ‘around 50%’ of people who weren’t involved know you all for what you are.
Now, to your elusive ID: any chance of first name shared with a famous Aussie sportsman surname Border and you share a surname with a much-married English-born American Hollywood actress who starred in everything from ‘National Velvet’ to ‘Cleopatra’?
I think you’ve just got to face the fact that you are what even you know you are and no amount of re-writing of history or rationalisation is ever going to change the fact. The fact that ‘only’ around 50% of those who were not involved think you are what you are is mute testimony that most people don’t read beyond the headline and the first paragraph of a news article that doesn’t affect them personally. Accepting that last statement as a fact, you and your kind should be seriously concerned that the other ‘around 50%’ of people who weren’t involved know you all for what you are.
Now, to your elusive ID: any chance of first name shared with a famous Aussie sportsman surname Border and you share a surname with a much-married English-born American Hollywood actress who starred in everything from ‘National Velvet’ to ‘Cleopatra’?
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Here we go again.
The great guessing game of 89
I 'll play Spad
Are you by any chance a certain F50 captain who made enquires to come back but when you couldn't get a 737 command you joined Qantas circa 19 Jan 90.
You must have really stood by your mates while you completed the QF appilcation form. So as a GA pilot who choose not to join but is now junior to you at QF I have a bit of a problem with your higher than mighty attitude.
By the way does your first name sound like fern and a surname as in Port Phillip XXX s big XXX ?
Please dont assume I am passing any judgement on what you did.You did what was right for you but move on .
Are we having fun yet.
The great guessing game of 89
I 'll play Spad
Are you by any chance a certain F50 captain who made enquires to come back but when you couldn't get a 737 command you joined Qantas circa 19 Jan 90.
You must have really stood by your mates while you completed the QF appilcation form. So as a GA pilot who choose not to join but is now junior to you at QF I have a bit of a problem with your higher than mighty attitude.
By the way does your first name sound like fern and a surname as in Port Phillip XXX s big XXX ?
Please dont assume I am passing any judgement on what you did.You did what was right for you but move on .
Are we having fun yet.
Last edited by meeko; 17th Oct 2002 at 14:15.
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Spad,
You're too clever, but I'm not about to admit, or deny for that matter, the identity that you put on me. You may be warm, hot, or even stone cold.
The two claims that your 'brothers' rushed off overseas because they had no faith in the union, and that they told local FOs that they were only there thill 'their' jobs again were available are, in fact, consistent.
I NEVER suggested that the union was going to get their jobs back, because it had clearly advanced to a position well beyond that when the resignations were submitted, but they thought that the Australian system couldn't do without them, and the companies would come running after the 'best pilots in the world' to come back and save Oz aviation. How wrong they were. They may have thought that the union would get their jobs back, but not for a second did I think that.
Simultaneously, they were stepping over their 'mates' to pick the eyes out of the available jobs. How is that differen from what you perceive happened here after we RESIGNED?
We know a few who rushed back to Tattslotto agencies etc because they couldn't cut it in other's systems, or pass the ground school etc. One had stood up at an AFAP rally, and announced to all that he was a millionaire, and that he had an offer from SQ, and he was considering whether to take it or not. Well, he may as well not have, because he was back in a month.
As for justifying what I did, and what I am, I make no apologies to you or anybody else. We resigned; jobs were advertised and I took one. End of story.
Meeko, I thought similarly.
You're too clever, but I'm not about to admit, or deny for that matter, the identity that you put on me. You may be warm, hot, or even stone cold.
The two claims that your 'brothers' rushed off overseas because they had no faith in the union, and that they told local FOs that they were only there thill 'their' jobs again were available are, in fact, consistent.
I NEVER suggested that the union was going to get their jobs back, because it had clearly advanced to a position well beyond that when the resignations were submitted, but they thought that the Australian system couldn't do without them, and the companies would come running after the 'best pilots in the world' to come back and save Oz aviation. How wrong they were. They may have thought that the union would get their jobs back, but not for a second did I think that.
Simultaneously, they were stepping over their 'mates' to pick the eyes out of the available jobs. How is that differen from what you perceive happened here after we RESIGNED?
We know a few who rushed back to Tattslotto agencies etc because they couldn't cut it in other's systems, or pass the ground school etc. One had stood up at an AFAP rally, and announced to all that he was a millionaire, and that he had an offer from SQ, and he was considering whether to take it or not. Well, he may as well not have, because he was back in a month.
As for justifying what I did, and what I am, I make no apologies to you or anybody else. We resigned; jobs were advertised and I took one. End of story.
Meeko, I thought similarly.
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Your pride in being a scab, CitizenXXXXXXXXXXXX, fails to impress, when it is clearly a false pride.
Your attacks on all members of the AFAP who either led it, or were not prepared to associate themselves with scumbags like the now deceased Abeles, as you did, adequately demonstrates your shaky hold on that pride.
The question will always remain, if you were so insulted by the speech of the person whom you say claimed to be rather rich, AND you did not think the AFAP was doing the right thing, why did you not take action to amend the course, which was available to you?
Oh yes - you will claim you did - took your life into your own hands and scabbed. Right.
But you resigned or were fired by a writ like everyone else (except the golden scabs of course), so you had a bunch of colleagues in the same boat, why not take them with you?
Nope! Those scab contracts glittered didn't they, and the only way you could get your hands on that money was to turn your back on them.
That, by any definition, is the lowest act, and you, as I have said before, have to live with it - for the remainder of your low life. Oh dear, I've done it again - abuse.
Your attacks on all members of the AFAP who either led it, or were not prepared to associate themselves with scumbags like the now deceased Abeles, as you did, adequately demonstrates your shaky hold on that pride.
The question will always remain, if you were so insulted by the speech of the person whom you say claimed to be rather rich, AND you did not think the AFAP was doing the right thing, why did you not take action to amend the course, which was available to you?
Oh yes - you will claim you did - took your life into your own hands and scabbed. Right.
But you resigned or were fired by a writ like everyone else (except the golden scabs of course), so you had a bunch of colleagues in the same boat, why not take them with you?
Nope! Those scab contracts glittered didn't they, and the only way you could get your hands on that money was to turn your back on them.
That, by any definition, is the lowest act, and you, as I have said before, have to live with it - for the remainder of your low life. Oh dear, I've done it again - abuse.
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TTT,
You've really got me by the short and curlies. It is false pride, just as you say. You're right - again. You're always right.
The contracts did glitter, and I fell for it. I fell for that old as time human failing called greed. I'm a greedy person, and when I went back, I thought 'this will really screw those guys who are going to go through life bitter and twisted, and go on to call themselves such imaginitive names as Spad, TTT, Amos 2, Kaptin M, Slasher, etc.'
I was really so far ahead of the game to know that you would F... up your lives with hatred and bitterness towards me.
And do you think I give a $hit? Like hell I do. Just as I did, you had a choice, but yours was the wrong one, following the AFAP down the path to oblivion. What a shame. How do I know it was wrong? Well, you wouldn't still be carping and whining about it 13+ years later if you considered it the right one.
It's been pointed out previously by others that the term 'scab' doesn't apply because there was no industrial dispute after the resignations. But it doesn't matter, because even if you called me a F..... C.... it would still be water off a duck's back. Name calling belongs in pre primary school, and of course, with you guys. Very silly.
And TTT, you really have to do two things for me, your brother in aviation. You have to get the X's right. You've given me between one and ten, but I know you can do it if you put your mind to it. It's two Xs - XX. Very simple really children.
And secondly, you have to take an anger management course. A few sessions with a shrink may well do you the world of good, and get that abuse under control.
You've really got me by the short and curlies. It is false pride, just as you say. You're right - again. You're always right.
The contracts did glitter, and I fell for it. I fell for that old as time human failing called greed. I'm a greedy person, and when I went back, I thought 'this will really screw those guys who are going to go through life bitter and twisted, and go on to call themselves such imaginitive names as Spad, TTT, Amos 2, Kaptin M, Slasher, etc.'
I was really so far ahead of the game to know that you would F... up your lives with hatred and bitterness towards me.
And do you think I give a $hit? Like hell I do. Just as I did, you had a choice, but yours was the wrong one, following the AFAP down the path to oblivion. What a shame. How do I know it was wrong? Well, you wouldn't still be carping and whining about it 13+ years later if you considered it the right one.
It's been pointed out previously by others that the term 'scab' doesn't apply because there was no industrial dispute after the resignations. But it doesn't matter, because even if you called me a F..... C.... it would still be water off a duck's back. Name calling belongs in pre primary school, and of course, with you guys. Very silly.
And TTT, you really have to do two things for me, your brother in aviation. You have to get the X's right. You've given me between one and ten, but I know you can do it if you put your mind to it. It's two Xs - XX. Very simple really children.
And secondly, you have to take an anger management course. A few sessions with a shrink may well do you the world of good, and get that abuse under control.
Last edited by CitizenXX; 18th Oct 2002 at 23:31.
TTT
A question I asked earlier....
You claim you were "Not prepared to associate with scumbabs like Ables".
Does that mean if the AFAP had won the dispute, you would have turned down the chance to work for PA again?
Or did he only become a scumbag when you lost...
A question I asked earlier....
You claim you were "Not prepared to associate with scumbabs like Ables".
Does that mean if the AFAP had won the dispute, you would have turned down the chance to work for PA again?
Or did he only become a scumbag when you lost...
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wizofoz you won't get an answer from TTT on that question. it is far too difficult.... you have asked the question of the century and he can't answer it because if it is answered in the affirmative then the returnees were justified to get their own jobs back and stuff abeles. if answered in the negative then it's another example of AFAP hypocrisy and lies.
in short Wiz, you have TTT over the proverbial barrel!
in short Wiz, you have TTT over the proverbial barrel!
amos2,
Thank you for your intelligent and informative post. This has cleared the issue up no end. Anyone who does not agree with you has something wrong with them...
Got it...
Thank you for your intelligent and informative post. This has cleared the issue up no end. Anyone who does not agree with you has something wrong with them...
Got it...
Nunc est bibendum
Amazing how all sides of this are so amazingly predictable. It's getting old from both sides now! I don't mind hearing the respective debates with whatever 'slant' people put on them- I can make up my own mind from their- but this back and forward crap is just that- CRAP!!
Someone may well reply with 'don't like it, don't read it' but I like to actually try and educate myself along the way which is difficult when BOTH SIDES continually go on with the name calling.
Professional, oh really!?!?! My three year old shows greater respect for others.
Someone may well reply with 'don't like it, don't read it' but I like to actually try and educate myself along the way which is difficult when BOTH SIDES continually go on with the name calling.
Professional, oh really!?!?! My three year old shows greater respect for others.
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Keg,
You've offended me. I never offer abuse to any person who posts here, nor do I involve myself in infantile name calling. I do agree that it is boring, but what else can I do? Let these guys have it all their own ways?
Your three old would enjoy talking with TTT. He said in a recent post that even the 3 yo down the street could see a certain point he was making. Perhaps it was she, and he may even signed her up for AFAP membership by now.
You've offended me. I never offer abuse to any person who posts here, nor do I involve myself in infantile name calling. I do agree that it is boring, but what else can I do? Let these guys have it all their own ways?
Your three old would enjoy talking with TTT. He said in a recent post that even the 3 yo down the street could see a certain point he was making. Perhaps it was she, and he may even signed her up for AFAP membership by now.