Crash at Hamilton Island
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Regardless of whether this was or was not a turn back accident, it should be a reminder to any of the last of the hard bitten thrill seekers still alive, who might contemplate it in similar circumstances, for even a nanosecond, DONT.
If you have ANY doubts go find an Aerobat or similar with an aerobatic instructor as a safety pilot, establish a safe "base" say 3000 ft and practise takeoffs from 3,000 ft and EFATO returns from say 3,500ft and see how you get on by completing a 180 turn and stabilised for a landing flare before 3,000ft, without the aircraft departing from controlled flight.
Which is why this should NOT be attempted in a non aerobatic aircraft OR without a suitably qualified aerobatic pilot instructor alongside.
It has been thus for ever.
If you have ANY doubts go find an Aerobat or similar with an aerobatic instructor as a safety pilot, establish a safe "base" say 3000 ft and practise takeoffs from 3,000 ft and EFATO returns from say 3,500ft and see how you get on by completing a 180 turn and stabilised for a landing flare before 3,000ft, without the aircraft departing from controlled flight.
Which is why this should NOT be attempted in a non aerobatic aircraft OR without a suitably qualified aerobatic pilot instructor alongside.
It has been thus for ever.
Join Date: Feb 1999
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The controlled forced landing procedure for a Cherokee Six is to maintain 75?? KIAS with wings level, and wherever the nose is pointing, that is where you will be landing. (I don't recall the speed now, it's been 12 years since I flew one, but the technique - well, I have done it, twice, and it works for all weights. That is something you don't forget)
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Don't you think it might be worth waiting for the evidence. The posts will look pretty silly if the finding is part of the tailplane fell off or something.
As for turnbacks, isn't it all related to aircraft performance? The PC-9 gets above it's glide speed pretty quickly on takeoff, secondly you have prebriefed ejection heights, 3rd the people authorised to do them practice them.
A final thought a old pilot told me in the 80's:
"Whenever you see a crash and think : How could he have done that". Just remember, with all his hours, all the instructors that have spent time with him, all the flight tests he has done, and all the advice from senior pilots - that's the decision he made on the day - so before you think badly about a pilots decision - just think , he's probably had the same or even better training than you". .. or words to that effect. Always good to reflect on.
As for turnbacks, isn't it all related to aircraft performance? The PC-9 gets above it's glide speed pretty quickly on takeoff, secondly you have prebriefed ejection heights, 3rd the people authorised to do them practice them.
A final thought a old pilot told me in the 80's:
"Whenever you see a crash and think : How could he have done that". Just remember, with all his hours, all the instructors that have spent time with him, all the flight tests he has done, and all the advice from senior pilots - that's the decision he made on the day - so before you think badly about a pilots decision - just think , he's probably had the same or even better training than you". .. or words to that effect. Always good to reflect on.
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Glide speed for PA32 = 87kts !!!!
R.O.D in a straight glide with 6 Adult POB approx. 1500 fpm, add extra drag from a steep turn back manouver and the required change in attitude to maintain speed and you could easily exceed 2000 fpm.
From 500ft, that's 15 seconds to ground level.
S2K
R.O.D in a straight glide with 6 Adult POB approx. 1500 fpm, add extra drag from a steep turn back manouver and the required change in attitude to maintain speed and you could easily exceed 2000 fpm.
From 500ft, that's 15 seconds to ground level.
S2K
Dragchute.
True. Winjeel at Point Cook - two fatal. Tiger Moth same place -one fatal. East Sale RAAF CFS - Vampire -two fatal.
UK - Hawk Jet trainer - two fatal.
Seems more risks in practicing than for real. The Vampire had an impeller failure shortly after take off and had a go at turning back but crashed short. Prior to that CFS had taught turn-backs during staff practice and on instructor courses. So it was understandable I guess that the pilot was primed for a turn back if something went wrong. Sad thing was that the fields ahead of the runway were relatively flat and the crew stood a reasonable chance of surviving a staright ahead forced landing.
Sometimes pilots make a split second decision when something catches them by surprise and despite all the previous warnings by their instructors from years back - they revert to basic survival mode of the safety of the runway that they have just left - only to turn back into a deadly minefield...
True. Winjeel at Point Cook - two fatal. Tiger Moth same place -one fatal. East Sale RAAF CFS - Vampire -two fatal.
UK - Hawk Jet trainer - two fatal.
Seems more risks in practicing than for real. The Vampire had an impeller failure shortly after take off and had a go at turning back but crashed short. Prior to that CFS had taught turn-backs during staff practice and on instructor courses. So it was understandable I guess that the pilot was primed for a turn back if something went wrong. Sad thing was that the fields ahead of the runway were relatively flat and the crew stood a reasonable chance of surviving a staright ahead forced landing.
Sometimes pilots make a split second decision when something catches them by surprise and despite all the previous warnings by their instructors from years back - they revert to basic survival mode of the safety of the runway that they have just left - only to turn back into a deadly minefield...
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If you read the comments of almost every poster who has commented over the last few pages, it's difficult to escape the conclusion that they all want to show off their knowledge. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? Don't deny it, look back on your posts and tell me there is another motivation.
I used to live in the Whitsundays, I know the HM airfield intimately, and coincidentally I knew the pilot. To each one of you who has posted, I can only suggest you look within yourself as to your motivation for posting. When you have worked that out, think about how your post may affect the relatives of the pilot, then carry on within the dictates of your own conscience.
I used to live in the Whitsundays, I know the HM airfield intimately, and coincidentally I knew the pilot. To each one of you who has posted, I can only suggest you look within yourself as to your motivation for posting. When you have worked that out, think about how your post may affect the relatives of the pilot, then carry on within the dictates of your own conscience.
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Condolences to the families of all involved.
But since we're now debating turn-backs, and because I always try to use posts like this as a learning tool ...
I'd had it drilled into my head over and over like most students, and in the Winter of 2000 I almost had the opportunity to test my nerve. I was solo and prepping for my PPL checkride at a small strip (3800') out in the country, when on climbout ina C152 the engine starts puttering at about 800 AGL with nothing but trees straight ahead.
While hangar-flying with the guys we'd heard discussed many times that when faced with a deadstick into the trees the best course would be to stall it out just above and drop thru the woods. So, with my blood turning to ice-water (it was amazing how that saying was true) and my cheeks ripping at the vinyl seat I prepared to do just that. As it turns out, whatever started the roughness smoothed out and I high-tailed it back down.
But about six months later a CFI and a student faced the exact same thing and walked away (limped away, actually
) after stalling a C152 out and dropping thru the trees.
Has anyone else had experience with this? Are there better suggestions for going down in the woods? Could this have been done in a fully loaded PA-32?
Rev. Thich Minh Thong
But since we're now debating turn-backs, and because I always try to use posts like this as a learning tool ...
I'd had it drilled into my head over and over like most students, and in the Winter of 2000 I almost had the opportunity to test my nerve. I was solo and prepping for my PPL checkride at a small strip (3800') out in the country, when on climbout ina C152 the engine starts puttering at about 800 AGL with nothing but trees straight ahead.
While hangar-flying with the guys we'd heard discussed many times that when faced with a deadstick into the trees the best course would be to stall it out just above and drop thru the woods. So, with my blood turning to ice-water (it was amazing how that saying was true) and my cheeks ripping at the vinyl seat I prepared to do just that. As it turns out, whatever started the roughness smoothed out and I high-tailed it back down.
But about six months later a CFI and a student faced the exact same thing and walked away (limped away, actually
) after stalling a C152 out and dropping thru the trees.Has anyone else had experience with this? Are there better suggestions for going down in the woods? Could this have been done in a fully loaded PA-32?
Rev. Thich Minh Thong
Warren Rabbit.
I believe it was Gaunty that stated: "News and witness reports of an attempted return to land...". And I stated: "The media reports the engine "spluttered" and the aircraft turned back..."
That is not speculation; it is simply a statement of media report. Whether the media is correct or not, can and will only be confirmed or rebuked by the findings of the appropriate investigator, the ATSB.
I can not see any post in this thread which in any way confirms nor denigrates the pilot's actions nor prejudices or preempts the findings of the ATSB. As it should be.
But if one life is saved from a debate on turn back, that debate has not been in vain.
I believe it was Gaunty that stated: "News and witness reports of an attempted return to land...". And I stated: "The media reports the engine "spluttered" and the aircraft turned back..."
That is not speculation; it is simply a statement of media report. Whether the media is correct or not, can and will only be confirmed or rebuked by the findings of the appropriate investigator, the ATSB.
I can not see any post in this thread which in any way confirms nor denigrates the pilot's actions nor prejudices or preempts the findings of the ATSB. As it should be.
But if one life is saved from a debate on turn back, that debate has not been in vain.
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I have to agree with torres. While not appropriating blame a debate on the pitfalls/benefits of an EFATO turn-back can only help enlighten and educate.
I have every sympathy for the pilot and pax however we must be able to continuously educate ourselves through discussion of relevant topics.
I have every sympathy for the pilot and pax however we must be able to continuously educate ourselves through discussion of relevant topics.
Moderator
Earlier in this thread Compressor Stall posted a link back to a thread started by Centaurus on turn backs ... definitely worth a look ... why not revive it and continue the specific discussion there ?
More interestingly, in that thread luftwaffle provided several links to papers on the subject. Unfortunately I haven't been able to link to one but the others I have pinched and included in the Tech Log URL sticky. These are a bit heavy in the going but well worth a read as the author is technically competent and the discussion is directed to a typical light aircraft.
While we need to observe all reasonable sensitivities after a fatal, it is not unreasonable to discuss hazards which might relate to sensible pilot decision making in the future, regardless of whether such discussions are, or are not, of relevance to the particular fatal.
More interestingly, in that thread luftwaffle provided several links to papers on the subject. Unfortunately I haven't been able to link to one but the others I have pinched and included in the Tech Log URL sticky. These are a bit heavy in the going but well worth a read as the author is technically competent and the discussion is directed to a typical light aircraft.
While we need to observe all reasonable sensitivities after a fatal, it is not unreasonable to discuss hazards which might relate to sensible pilot decision making in the future, regardless of whether such discussions are, or are not, of relevance to the particular fatal.
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My condolences too to the families. As a newly married wife (6 weeks) and having honeymooned on Hamilton Island I have such deep sympathy for young american widow. It really makes you want to grab your loved ones and let them know how much they mean to you and not let a day go by without getting the most out of it.
I may have missed the news report but has the pilot's name been released? I have a few friends that I have lost contact with and I am hoping that it is not one of them. They are of that age. If you would rather not post it here a personal email would be appreciated.
I may have missed the news report but has the pilot's name been released? I have a few friends that I have lost contact with and I am hoping that it is not one of them. They are of that age. If you would rather not post it here a personal email would be appreciated.
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Hey there Peter,
The name Andrew rings a bell but I can't remember from where.
Anyway to Andrew and his friends and family, my condolences, It makes me wake up and smell the roses that a fellow aviator meets the big boss up there. I have been in this business for a couple of years and seen for too many people go down for silly reasons. quite frankly my dear it scares the **** out of me, (I am not the brightest spark
)
Please anybody reading this do not hold bad judgement to the pilot, for as anyone that has faced the grim reaper in flight will realise that looking back on the fact and finding faults in judgement will never change the fact of what has happened. Usually those people faced in the same situation would make not make any better decisions.
Once again, my thoughts are with Andrew and his family/friends
The name Andrew rings a bell but I can't remember from where.
Anyway to Andrew and his friends and family, my condolences, It makes me wake up and smell the roses that a fellow aviator meets the big boss up there. I have been in this business for a couple of years and seen for too many people go down for silly reasons. quite frankly my dear it scares the **** out of me, (I am not the brightest spark
)Please anybody reading this do not hold bad judgement to the pilot, for as anyone that has faced the grim reaper in flight will realise that looking back on the fact and finding faults in judgement will never change the fact of what has happened. Usually those people faced in the same situation would make not make any better decisions.
Once again, my thoughts are with Andrew and his family/friends
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My apologies for dredging the thread up again, but I had stopped refferring to it after the "discussion" started. I only learned the identity of the pilot via a phonecall from a friend in Perth the day before yesterday........
In the short time that I knew Andrew (in KU), He came across as one of nature's true gentlemen. A quiet, un-assuming kind of person that many (including myself), could do well to emulate. His loss saddens me (as I am sure it does many family and friends), in a way that I find hard to actually grasp. I guess the surety that none of us are here forever gets rammed home with news such as this.
My thoughts go out to all of his family and friends, especially to those who knew him better than I.
RIP Andrew, may your passing become easier to bear for your loved ones in times ahead.
Best Regards,
Dave.
In the short time that I knew Andrew (in KU), He came across as one of nature's true gentlemen. A quiet, un-assuming kind of person that many (including myself), could do well to emulate. His loss saddens me (as I am sure it does many family and friends), in a way that I find hard to actually grasp. I guess the surety that none of us are here forever gets rammed home with news such as this.
My thoughts go out to all of his family and friends, especially to those who knew him better than I.
RIP Andrew, may your passing become easier to bear for your loved ones in times ahead.
Best Regards,
Dave.