Cruising for a Career? Forget it!
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Cruising for a Career? Forget it!
1.Reality Check for University Graduates
West Aust 31/8)
A survey of 5000 Australian employers by recruitment firm TMP Worldwide has revealed that new graduates have unrealistic expectations about their jobs and the future. It went on to say that graduates are often unwilling to undertake menial tasks because of the attitudes instilled into them while students, ie, that they were the 'top of the heap', and were destined for greater things.
One interesting point made by the survey was that employers and recruiters were 'building up an idea that there are plenty of bright futures in business', when in fact it is far from that.
The story concluded, 'graduates who expect to become overnight successes, with a BMW in their driveway, are in for a reality check in todays business environment'.
2.I Can Do That: The C.E.O. Generation (AFR 31/8)
In another article by Diedre Macken, there was a similar story, although from different sources. Macken called it cruising for a career, a condition brought on by what could be optimism, but is more likely just unreal expectations. Where do these originate? A US professor, Martin Seligman, beleives that it's because of the increasingly 'nanny' society we've created. He states that unless the young are allowed to fail, they'll never get experience. If parents and employers 'wrap them in cotton wool' then the new graduate will never learn from the bottom up. He further comments that 'by encouraging cheap success, we are setting up a generation of failures'
She went on to quote the editor of News Ltd, one John Hartigan, a journalist of the old school -
' today, we find our reporters are from tertiary educated backgrounds, where so many seem to aspire to present A Current Affair, but know nothing of, and seem to resent, the years of experience and work it takes to get there'
Comment:
There are some interesting similarities to aviation in the above.
We've been over all this in previous posts on Prune, but it is worth noting that the 'attitude' of new graduates is the same in all professions, and not just an aviation related syndrome.
Looking around my own profession of agricultural science, I am seeing more and more severe reality checks, as people leave the great umbrella and join private enterprise, where you do all the jobs.
Humility isn't something that can be taught in school or university - it comes with graduation from the school of hard knocks.
cheers,
West Aust 31/8)A survey of 5000 Australian employers by recruitment firm TMP Worldwide has revealed that new graduates have unrealistic expectations about their jobs and the future. It went on to say that graduates are often unwilling to undertake menial tasks because of the attitudes instilled into them while students, ie, that they were the 'top of the heap', and were destined for greater things.
One interesting point made by the survey was that employers and recruiters were 'building up an idea that there are plenty of bright futures in business', when in fact it is far from that.
The story concluded, 'graduates who expect to become overnight successes, with a BMW in their driveway, are in for a reality check in todays business environment'.
2.I Can Do That: The C.E.O. Generation (AFR 31/8)
In another article by Diedre Macken, there was a similar story, although from different sources. Macken called it cruising for a career, a condition brought on by what could be optimism, but is more likely just unreal expectations. Where do these originate? A US professor, Martin Seligman, beleives that it's because of the increasingly 'nanny' society we've created. He states that unless the young are allowed to fail, they'll never get experience. If parents and employers 'wrap them in cotton wool' then the new graduate will never learn from the bottom up. He further comments that 'by encouraging cheap success, we are setting up a generation of failures'
She went on to quote the editor of News Ltd, one John Hartigan, a journalist of the old school -
' today, we find our reporters are from tertiary educated backgrounds, where so many seem to aspire to present A Current Affair, but know nothing of, and seem to resent, the years of experience and work it takes to get there'
Comment:
There are some interesting similarities to aviation in the above.
We've been over all this in previous posts on Prune, but it is worth noting that the 'attitude' of new graduates is the same in all professions, and not just an aviation related syndrome.
Looking around my own profession of agricultural science, I am seeing more and more severe reality checks, as people leave the great umbrella and join private enterprise, where you do all the jobs.
Humility isn't something that can be taught in school or university - it comes with graduation from the school of hard knocks.
cheers,
Bit of a rant there, eh?
When you were starting out, did you have any more realistic outlook than the next young kid?
I don't think that a degree is necessarily a good idea in an aviation career, but it probably doesn't hurt. The main effect of those few years studying instead of being in the workforce is to delay the inevitable crunch time of actually doing the job.
The main thing is, if a person is willing to learn, they will do OK. I agree that tertiary institutions with a vested interest shouldn't build up unrealistic expectations, but surely some of them have the students' interest at heart - or are they all money grabbing bastards with no scruples?
When you were starting out, did you have any more realistic outlook than the next young kid?
I don't think that a degree is necessarily a good idea in an aviation career, but it probably doesn't hurt. The main effect of those few years studying instead of being in the workforce is to delay the inevitable crunch time of actually doing the job.
The main thing is, if a person is willing to learn, they will do OK. I agree that tertiary institutions with a vested interest shouldn't build up unrealistic expectations, but surely some of them have the students' interest at heart - or are they all money grabbing bastards with no scruples?
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Maybe a chief pilot could add comment to the thread on whether they look for a Uni pilot over somebody with some life experience when employing a newbie? I was steered away from the Uni courses when I was contemplating my CPL `because your better off to go out and get your a rse into an aeroplane'. looking back, I am so glad I didnt go and get the degree, because lets face it... do you really need it to fly a bugsmasher? I think not...
Far better off to go and do something completely diiferent, like I.T. so as to have something to fall back on when you realise that the `promised' jobs are not there.
Took a look in one of the flying schools at YPJT a couple of months ago and saw the Uni pilots milling around with their `stars and bars' and shook my head... I think it is bred into them that they will just step into a flying gig straight away. HAHA..... While I was there, I also saw a 3 bar instructor walking around in uniform with a QANTAS 737 tie pin on. As if that isnt sending the wannabies the wrong message.
AS
Far better off to go and do something completely diiferent, like I.T. so as to have something to fall back on when you realise that the `promised' jobs are not there.
Took a look in one of the flying schools at YPJT a couple of months ago and saw the Uni pilots milling around with their `stars and bars' and shook my head... I think it is bred into them that they will just step into a flying gig straight away. HAHA..... While I was there, I also saw a 3 bar instructor walking around in uniform with a QANTAS 737 tie pin on. As if that isnt sending the wannabies the wrong message.
AS
Last edited by Aviation_sl#t; 7th Sep 2002 at 02:25.
Bottums Up
Reading the opening post of this thread reminded me of the number of times we see posts urging the older pilots, who've had a good innings, to leave the industry and give the youngsters a go.
Now I have some idea of where that mind set comes from.
Fast approaching being one of the older pilots, but only having been in the LHS of a jet for a couple of years, I'm not planning to vacate the seat in the foreseable future ..... checkers and medicos willing!
p.s. Aviation lose person you might want to check the spelling of our national airline!
Now I have some idea of where that mind set comes from.
Fast approaching being one of the older pilots, but only having been in the LHS of a jet for a couple of years, I'm not planning to vacate the seat in the foreseable future ..... checkers and medicos willing!
p.s. Aviation lose person you might want to check the spelling of our national airline!
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I go to uni, but it has nothing to do with life exerience vs a degree, it has to do with that fact i like most people my age have to spread the cost of flying over a period of time, and the uni degree at least means you get something else in the meantime
If your looking for pilots with life experience get a uni student, they'll be used to disapointment
on a serious note though, i think getting a uni degree does show a certain degree of proactivness. Waiting an extra 2 years to be able to fly for a job also helps put a bit of fire in the belly! (and sort out the pretenders from the real wannabees)
If your looking for pilots with life experience get a uni student, they'll be used to disapointment
on a serious note though, i think getting a uni degree does show a certain degree of proactivness. Waiting an extra 2 years to be able to fly for a job also helps put a bit of fire in the belly! (and sort out the pretenders from the real wannabees)
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Personally Uni degrees have nothing to do with it. It all comes down to your attitude. The piece of paper at the end of the day does not change a person’s attitude. We hire staff on attitude not if you have been to Uni. If you have a good attitude, and you have a degree, that’s okay and if you haven’t, that’s okay too.
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i understand what your saying
its not so much that uni changes attitudes (apart from turning us all into cynics
), more that certain attitudes tend to last at unis.
I'd much rather have not gone to uni, gotten out into the workforce 2 years ago and go for a degree later in life (the give you half you degree if you've got enough hours), but it wasn't an option.
Maybe its just me trying to convince people to hire uni graduates
drop out rate seems a lot higher though, not that this means much... much better to practice cleaning planes then studying qbasic programing when it comes to hunting for a job i bet
its not so much that uni changes attitudes (apart from turning us all into cynics
), more that certain attitudes tend to last at unis.I'd much rather have not gone to uni, gotten out into the workforce 2 years ago and go for a degree later in life (the give you half you degree if you've got enough hours), but it wasn't an option.
Maybe its just me trying to convince people to hire uni graduates
drop out rate seems a lot higher though, not that this means much... much better to practice cleaning planes then studying qbasic programing when it comes to hunting for a job i bet
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Who would want to fly around in a jet any way when the have the jobs like ours RV6, nothing like bugga all feet between you and the ground all day to keep ya interested and awake.
Aviation lose person (that has a nice ring to it I think) youi should stay where you are at the moment because you are in a rather unique position for your experiance and it can only help further up the track.
Aviation lose person (that has a nice ring to it I think) youi should stay where you are at the moment because you are in a rather unique position for your experiance and it can only help further up the track.
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I think many people miss understand degrees and their importance.
Sure, it might bump you up a few selection places in the recruitment process (even though QF say it doesn't ) but at the end of the day, YOU still have to sell yourself!
You could have degrees coming out of your ears, but if your a fruitcake, well it doesn't matter if your dad is the chief pilot for QF!
I believe in for degrees for pilots. I am not saying RMIT, Swinburne or UNSW run the most fantastic courses, but it could be the start for an aspiring pilot.
It?fs not a matter of saying:
"I have spent $45 000 on flight training, NOW give me a job!"
Friends have spent close to $50 000 becoming a lawyer or doctor, yet I don't hear a bitching word from any of them if they can't get a job. They just keep plugging away until opportunity presents itself.
Why should aviation be any different?
End of the day, all we do is fly! It may be an expensive trade but at the end of the day it?fs just that:
A trade!
Add a degree and it becomes a professional qualification!
Simple as that!
Sure, it might bump you up a few selection places in the recruitment process (even though QF say it doesn't
) but at the end of the day, YOU still have to sell yourself!You could have degrees coming out of your ears, but if your a fruitcake, well it doesn't matter if your dad is the chief pilot for QF!
I believe in for degrees for pilots. I am not saying RMIT, Swinburne or UNSW run the most fantastic courses, but it could be the start for an aspiring pilot.
It?fs not a matter of saying:
"I have spent $45 000 on flight training, NOW give me a job!"
Friends have spent close to $50 000 becoming a lawyer or doctor, yet I don't hear a bitching word from any of them if they can't get a job. They just keep plugging away until opportunity presents itself.
Why should aviation be any different?
End of the day, all we do is fly! It may be an expensive trade but at the end of the day it?fs just that:
A trade!
Add a degree and it becomes a professional qualification!
Simple as that!
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I think having a uni degree is all fine & dandy but in reality it's all theory and the rubber doesn't hit the road until you get into an aeroplane. You could have a HD's coming out of your ears but you still can be a pretty lousy pilot. (seen it happen!!) I think as said before attitude makes a big difference too.
I think also that unis and flying schools have a alot to answer for in terms of what they're selling too. I'm not sure what they're saying these days but when I was looking at flying some uni's were telling me that they're graduates start in regional airlines!!! (with 200 hours??!!) However they're in the business of filling places so I guess it's a case of buyer beware!! Certainly don't fall for the line of 'you need a degree to be a pilot' To start with it costs 2-3 times as much and the guys training you have squat all hours anyway!!!! But I know there are some people who swear by this system so who really knows??!!!
I think also that unis and flying schools have a alot to answer for in terms of what they're selling too. I'm not sure what they're saying these days but when I was looking at flying some uni's were telling me that they're graduates start in regional airlines!!! (with 200 hours??!!) However they're in the business of filling places so I guess it's a case of buyer beware!! Certainly don't fall for the line of 'you need a degree to be a pilot' To start with it costs 2-3 times as much and the guys training you have squat all hours anyway!!!! But I know there are some people who swear by this system so who really knows??!!!
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I think academia in aviation is a 2nd qualification.
A medical student becomes a GP first and a speciaist 2nd. Same for aviation.
Do the licence first, then complete the degree later.
My 2 cents.
U2
A medical student becomes a GP first and a speciaist 2nd. Same for aviation.
Do the licence first, then complete the degree later.
My 2 cents.
U2
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I don't care who you are or what you're background is. If you're planning to get into the aviation industry, you better be prepared to get off yer @rse and make it happen. That's half the battle.
The other half is, as I keep saying on threads like this, to make yerself the best pilot you can be - and then be better still. You're trying to enter one helluva competitive market because there are (and have been for a bloodey long time) more pilots than jobs. The pilot who knows what's what, who can talk pleasantly to the clients (they're not customers, they're far more important than that), who knows the aeroplane/s that he/she has to fly AND the systems in those machines, who shows no lack of confidence - but without being OVERLY confident, is the one who'll do well.
And, even then, you need a bit of luck! But, if you aren't prepared to get out and do something - anything at all - in aviation, all the rest of your professionalism, skill and knowledge will count for exactly zip!
All the best of luck to those who are still looking for that elusive first job... we've all been there!
The other half is, as I keep saying on threads like this, to make yerself the best pilot you can be - and then be better still. You're trying to enter one helluva competitive market because there are (and have been for a bloodey long time) more pilots than jobs. The pilot who knows what's what, who can talk pleasantly to the clients (they're not customers, they're far more important than that), who knows the aeroplane/s that he/she has to fly AND the systems in those machines, who shows no lack of confidence - but without being OVERLY confident, is the one who'll do well.
And, even then, you need a bit of luck! But, if you aren't prepared to get out and do something - anything at all - in aviation, all the rest of your professionalism, skill and knowledge will count for exactly zip!
All the best of luck to those who are still looking for that elusive first job... we've all been there!
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Sometimes you've got to wonder how far you can push it.
Im a CPL / CIR / FI3A / Qualified and Experienced Tour Guide with a piddly 220hrs TT and I cant find a job, not even in the remote area scenic flight market.
I work free-lance through a local flight school (what ever buiseness you can drum up you can teach), volunteer at the local aero club as a free theory instructor and design endorsement trainer and Im still stuck on the dole. I get award rate per hour and no retainer for FI and nothing for my weekend time, any sugestions on what else I can do to land a full time job?
If you want to get into GA they tell me you have to give till it hurts... Well im certainly taking it till it hurts.
The person who says it cant be done is always overtaken by the person that just did it!
Best of luck to all others in my shoes or worse!
Im a CPL / CIR / FI3A / Qualified and Experienced Tour Guide with a piddly 220hrs TT and I cant find a job, not even in the remote area scenic flight market.
I work free-lance through a local flight school (what ever buiseness you can drum up you can teach), volunteer at the local aero club as a free theory instructor and design endorsement trainer and Im still stuck on the dole. I get award rate per hour and no retainer for FI and nothing for my weekend time, any sugestions on what else I can do to land a full time job?
If you want to get into GA they tell me you have to give till it hurts... Well im certainly taking it till it hurts.
The person who says it cant be done is always overtaken by the person that just did it!
Best of luck to all others in my shoes or worse!
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It seems to me that the people who have the right attitude and work their way through, do the hard yards with the gathering of life's skills along the way,including all the necessary requirements, are the one's that seem to be in the right place at the right time when the job gets filled.
Attitude plays a big part in the selection process.
Just my two bob's worth of observation.
Attitude plays a big part in the selection process.
Just my two bob's worth of observation.
