ASD-B IN – A different perspective on the recent hype
Thread Starter
A video I saw included one of the pax repeatedly tapping the pilot on the arm/shoulder, apparently to alert the pilot of the proximity of the other helicopter. Did I misinterpret what I saw?
(The reason the avionics fit will be very interesting is if one or both of the helicopters had ASD-B IN with traffic alerting capability and, if it/they were, whether it was operational and, if not, why not. Remember: ADS-B IN is being advertised as something to assist VFR aircraft to avoid collisions.)
(The reason the avionics fit will be very interesting is if one or both of the helicopters had ASD-B IN with traffic alerting capability and, if it/they were, whether it was operational and, if not, why not. Remember: ADS-B IN is being advertised as something to assist VFR aircraft to avoid collisions.)
A video I saw included one of the pax repeatedly tapping the pilot on the arm/shoulder, apparently to alert the pilot of the proximity of the other helicopter. Did I misinterpret what I saw?
(The reason the avionics fit will be very interesting is if one or both of the helicopters had ASD-B IN with traffic alerting capability and, if it/they were, whether it was operational and, if not, why not. Remember: ADS-B IN is being advertised as something to assist VFR aircraft to avoid collisions.)
(The reason the avionics fit will be very interesting is if one or both of the helicopters had ASD-B IN with traffic alerting capability and, if it/they were, whether it was operational and, if not, why not. Remember: ADS-B IN is being advertised as something to assist VFR aircraft to avoid collisions.)
You saw and interpreted correctly CM, the passenger did indeed give a shoulder-tap as
a warning.
a warning.
Thread Starter
Why would traffic probably be low on the spectrum of threats in a helicopter in the approach phase in airspace used by other helicopters?
And if ACAS was necessary to have saved them, ATSB should be advertising ACAS as well, yes?
And if ACAS was necessary to have saved them, ATSB should be advertising ACAS as well, yes?
As for ADSB IN, it depends on what you have hooked up to it for it to be useful, that could be an ACAS device or just flight bag traffic features, if its just flight bag traffic, are you going to look at that at 500ft on final?
I find traffic displays are pretty good when approaching a destination, until close to the circuit. After that things happen too quickly for you to be monitoring the displays, esp in heavy traffic. The radio and a good lookout are more important.
Also close to a circuit you will probably get a lot of alerts from irrelevent traffic, confusing the situation.
What's the proposed solution? No reporting points? Just call 3 miles from the D anywhere?
Do we think that improves things?
Do we think that improves things?
I can tell you what IS happening is students (and most unfamiliar pilots) with their head buried in iPads inbound via stupid reporting points.
I did my CPL at Bankstown in the days that Clinton speaks of. It's no bull**** that you'd have 3 on final on each of the runways multiplied by 3 recurring. Why are these towers now not capable of handling the traffic they used to? At Bankstown you quite rightly used to get a bollocking if you flew a 747 circuit. You knew what you had to do. The eastern circuit at Moorabbin is a joke! Most of the circuits in these towered aerodromes are a joke.
Gee I dunno. Lots of ranting. No solutions. Not even sure what you’re perceived problem is. Everyone ends up in the same place at the same time eventually. It’s either a reporting point or base or final or the runway. Varying degrees of probability but all non zero in a busy metro area.
I think you’re suggesting we ban EC devices and other modern aids to SA and see what happens if we go back to the 70s.
I assume you’re adamant about what IS happening because you’re either doing it yourself or you’re in the cockpit with the student.
in either case it should be relatively straightforward to make a direct contribution to safety yourself.
I spend 5days a week at BK. Regularly see planes abreast.
maybe it’s not 3x3 because there just ain’t the volume of traffic of the good old days.
is that safer or not? I’m confused.
I think you’re suggesting we ban EC devices and other modern aids to SA and see what happens if we go back to the 70s.
I assume you’re adamant about what IS happening because you’re either doing it yourself or you’re in the cockpit with the student.
in either case it should be relatively straightforward to make a direct contribution to safety yourself.
I spend 5days a week at BK. Regularly see planes abreast.
maybe it’s not 3x3 because there just ain’t the volume of traffic of the good old days.
is that safer or not? I’m confused.
Lots of ranting
Yeah OK. It's all ranting.
I’m confused.
Thread Starter
Nobody is “suggesting we ban EC devices and other modern aids to SA”. For my part, I’m suggesting the benefits of ADS-B IN are being over-stated, and its limitations and traps are being under-stated, by the agencies plugging it.
So a shoulder tap is about all you would expect.
Thread Starter
Perhaps I am completely misinterpreting what I saw, but what I think I saw was a second row passenger on the left side of one of the helicopters seeing the other helicopter getting closer from the left and below, and repeatedly tapping the pilot on the shoulder to bring the pilot’s attention to something the pilot wasn’t looking at. What I think I saw was a passenger trying to bring the pilot’s attention to an actual threat of which the pilot wasn’t aware. I anticipate that the ATSB’s report will recalibrate my interpretation if I’m wrong.
(Purely coincidentally, my pre-take-off brief to (usually non-pilot) pax is to ask them to be quiet during take-off but, if there’s something of which they think I need urgently to be aware, to tap me on my shoulder and point at what they think I need to be aware.)
Back to the main subject of this thread, it would be a ghastly irony of the one or both of the helicopters involved in the tragedy had ADS-B IN equipment with traffic alert capability, but switched off due to ‘nuisance’ alarms. I anticipate that the ATSB’s report will be clear about what avionics was fitted and how it was being used.
(Purely coincidentally, my pre-take-off brief to (usually non-pilot) pax is to ask them to be quiet during take-off but, if there’s something of which they think I need urgently to be aware, to tap me on my shoulder and point at what they think I need to be aware.)
Back to the main subject of this thread, it would be a ghastly irony of the one or both of the helicopters involved in the tragedy had ADS-B IN equipment with traffic alert capability, but switched off due to ‘nuisance’ alarms. I anticipate that the ATSB’s report will be clear about what avionics was fitted and how it was being used.
The preliminary already sheds some light on this.
But it’s ambiguously worded with little real detail.
TLDR one had an inop xpdr and we don’t yet know what the other had exactly.
Given they were 15-20yo airframes doing OCTA commercial ops VFR you can probably guess what they did (or more importantly did not) have fitted.
But it’s ambiguously worded with little real detail.
TLDR one had an inop xpdr and we don’t yet know what the other had exactly.
Given they were 15-20yo airframes doing OCTA commercial ops VFR you can probably guess what they did (or more importantly did not) have fitted.
what I think I saw was a second row passenger on the left side of one of the helicopters seeing the other helicopter getting closer from the left and below, and repeatedly tapping the pilot on the shoulder to bring the pilot’s attention to something the pilot wasn’t looking at.
Two helicopters collide - Gold Coast, Queensland - Sea World 2/1/2023 - Page 9 - PPRuNe Forums post #171
I doubt in the traffic scenario around Gold Coast scenics that any ADSB info was going to be taken notice of.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 15th Nov 2023 at 12:35.
I doubt in the traffic scenario around Gold Coast scenics that any ADSB info was going to be taken notice of.
How could an ADSB proximity alert NOT prevent this?
We just don’t have the tech yet to allow this. ADSB-IN has never been a focus for the government. Once the EFB’s put in the relevant alert algorithms with the audio routed through the intercom and everyone has an IN receiver, there would be half a chance. We are a long way from this happening though.
I’m sure the pilot would sit up and take notice of a loud beeping proximity alert came through his headset. Even FLARM would have worked well for such a small cost - it’s very suitable for such an operation.
Any of the newer avionics would have had PFDs lit up like a Christmas tree in this situation with audio alerts to match - providing there was indeed ADSB out. It seems that there was at best only one ADSB out here and even that is unclear.
I’ve flown behind IN/OUT for years and can attest that it’s extremely accurate and very functional in busy class D airspace . It’ll happily paint a dozen targets at a time all within a mile.
no need to have you’re head in the cockpit. It just calls them out.
Given the amount of pushback from industry just to introduce OUT, itll be ages before we get an IN/OUT mandate.
Maybe this incident will slowly move the needle.
I’ve flown behind IN/OUT for years and can attest that it’s extremely accurate and very functional in busy class D airspace . It’ll happily paint a dozen targets at a time all within a mile.
no need to have you’re head in the cockpit. It just calls them out.
Given the amount of pushback from industry just to introduce OUT, itll be ages before we get an IN/OUT mandate.
Maybe this incident will slowly move the needle.
If you really want to be safe out there, maybe IFR (where everyone has ADSB) is the only way to fly.. oh, hang on, did someone mention TIBA??
Any of the newer avionics would have had PFDs lit up like a Christmas tree in this situation with audio alerts to match - providing there was indeed ADSB out. It seems that there was at best only one ADSB out here and even that is unclear.
I’ve flown behind IN/OUT for years and can attest that it’s extremely accurate and very functional in busy class D airspace . It’ll happily paint a dozen targets at a time all within a mile.
no need to have you’re head in the cockpit. It just calls them out.
Given the amount of pushback from industry just to introduce OUT, itll be ages before we get an IN/OUT mandate.
Maybe this incident will slowly move the needle.
I’ve flown behind IN/OUT for years and can attest that it’s extremely accurate and very functional in busy class D airspace . It’ll happily paint a dozen targets at a time all within a mile.
no need to have you’re head in the cockpit. It just calls them out.
Given the amount of pushback from industry just to introduce OUT, itll be ages before we get an IN/OUT mandate.
Maybe this incident will slowly move the needle.
Remarks like 'pfds being lit up' leads to pilots ignoring the chaff, so the warnings have to be timely, accurate and not spurious. I expect to get TAs close to busy airports, and once on final RAs are inhibited so all you get is alerts.
Sounds nice.. but what's the cost of that little setup?? Five figures at least, probably more.. and it still won't save you from someone like me charging around VFR with no ADSB-OUT. Sure, our beloved gov'mint has extended the rebate on fitment of these devices but it's still an expensive purchase (I suggest 70% might get more traction than 50%) with long lead times and to my mind the benefits and limitations aren't being advertised enough either as CM mentioned above.
If you really want to be safe out there, maybe IFR (where everyone has ADSB) is the only way to fly.. oh, hang on, did someone mention TIBA??
If you really want to be safe out there, maybe IFR (where everyone has ADSB) is the only way to fly.. oh, hang on, did someone mention TIBA??
I get the affordability argument. For private day VFR I think it’s appropriate too.
All I’m saying is that the tech is available, it works when installed properly, and for a business running 4-5m of hardware turning over many 10s of millions a year carrying thousands of paying passengers, it’s harder to make the argument that 10k (or 20 or whatever) of avionics is not a cost effective safety enhancement.
Is it perfect? No. Is being on an IFR flight plan in G foolproof? Apparently not.
Like I said above, anyone who’s used this would agree with me that properly installed and operating IN/OUT would make this type of incident exceedingly improbable.