Missing light aircraft in the NT
Everyone, let's take stock for a minute.
KA has launched the career of Hundreds and Hundreds of pilots over the years. It's a terrible incident that a young fella lost his life. Those of us that where charter pilots have all been in similar situations and in similar financial positions. It's part of the great journey that is aviation.
These companies are used by pilots and the company uses them. The financial incentive isn't what draws you to work for KA/ chartair/ Air frontier/ Broome AV/ GSL etc , it's the hours. They don't force you to fly or accept their terms when giving you your first gig... Many if not all starter companies have duty days, crappy wages and older frames.
Most incidents come down to pilot error, this is probably no exception, yet this guy wasn't lucky like the rest of us where when we did a skud run or maybe went into some weather we really shouldn't have to get back in time for the weekend, a party or in this case Xmas.
Don't bag on KA and their wages and commercial pressures, all companies at that level are the same.
KA has launched the career of Hundreds and Hundreds of pilots over the years. It's a terrible incident that a young fella lost his life. Those of us that where charter pilots have all been in similar situations and in similar financial positions. It's part of the great journey that is aviation.
These companies are used by pilots and the company uses them. The financial incentive isn't what draws you to work for KA/ chartair/ Air frontier/ Broome AV/ GSL etc , it's the hours. They don't force you to fly or accept their terms when giving you your first gig... Many if not all starter companies have duty days, crappy wages and older frames.
Most incidents come down to pilot error, this is probably no exception, yet this guy wasn't lucky like the rest of us where when we did a skud run or maybe went into some weather we really shouldn't have to get back in time for the weekend, a party or in this case Xmas.
Don't bag on KA and their wages and commercial pressures, all companies at that level are the same.
This is the problem Skippy. Name me any other profession where people work for free, or under award just to 'get experience' so they can move on. What these non award complaint companies are doing, is 100% illegal when it comes to workplace IR legislation, the fact that people are willing to 'take it' is besides the point, it's still illegal !
It doesn't matter if a pax is getting on a 210 in the NT, or a 380 to SIN, they have the expectation that their pilot is trained, capable and properly paid to do that job and duty. The fact that people use these jobs as stepping stones is of no consequence, kids use jobs at Maccas at stepping stones too and Maccas pays people appropriately for the work they do, and in some cases recently when they weren't they were charged, and people were back paid.
The old saying of 'The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept', comes to mind here. If you are willing to overlook dodgy things, and do dodgy things in GA, what all of a sudden you get a decent job you suddenly become compliant? You are now compliant because you are working in a culture of compliance, pilots need to get a pair and introduce that compliance in GA.
It's your headstone not the dodgy GA operator, always remember that.
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This is the problem Skippy. Name me any other profession where people work for free, or under award just to 'get experience' so they can move on. What these non award complaint companies are doing, is 100% illegal when it comes to workplace IR legislation, the fact that people are willing to 'take it' is besides the point, it's still illegal !
It doesn't matter if a pax is getting on a 210 in the NT, or a 380 to SIN, they have the expectation that their pilot is trained, capable and properly paid to do that job and duty. The fact that people use these jobs as stepping stones is of no consequence, kids use jobs at Maccas at stepping stones too and Maccas pays people appropriately for the work they do, and in some cases recently when they weren't they were charged, and people were back paid.
The old saying of 'The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept', comes to mind here. If you are willing to overlook dodgy things, and do dodgy things in GA, what all of a sudden you get a decent job you suddenly become compliant? You are now compliant because you are working in a culture of compliance, pilots need to get a pair and introduce that compliance in GA.
It's your headstone not the dodgy GA operator, always remember that.
It doesn't matter if a pax is getting on a 210 in the NT, or a 380 to SIN, they have the expectation that their pilot is trained, capable and properly paid to do that job and duty. The fact that people use these jobs as stepping stones is of no consequence, kids use jobs at Maccas at stepping stones too and Maccas pays people appropriately for the work they do, and in some cases recently when they weren't they were charged, and people were back paid.
The old saying of 'The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept', comes to mind here. If you are willing to overlook dodgy things, and do dodgy things in GA, what all of a sudden you get a decent job you suddenly become compliant? You are now compliant because you are working in a culture of compliance, pilots need to get a pair and introduce that compliance in GA.
It's your headstone not the dodgy GA operator, always remember that.
Dump truck industry is full of owner drivers that are running on fumes to make ends meet, and inevitably speed around, tailgating and other dangerous driving, to do more loads to make cash.
Unfortunately, it's a race to the bottom with fresh CPL holders these days. The same people offering to work for free are the same people that just sit there and put up with under-award payments...
I wasn't aware these cadets got typed after leaving the academy. especially a B737, unless they self-funded?
I've had multiple resumes come across my desk from these cadets and it's no wonder they're offering to work for free... The only aeroplanes they've flown are DA40s & DA42s all G1000. I've heard that the academy was trying to get a C210 online to offer some 'GA Training' so the cadets were more employable in GA after graduating. Imagine going through the whole process expecting to come out and join Qantas link and at the end, they give you some C210 time and tell you good luck with it....
I wasn't aware these cadets got typed after leaving the academy. especially a B737, unless they self-funded?
I've had multiple resumes come across my desk from these cadets and it's no wonder they're offering to work for free... The only aeroplanes they've flown are DA40s & DA42s all G1000. I've heard that the academy was trying to get a C210 online to offer some 'GA Training' so the cadets were more employable in GA after graduating. Imagine going through the whole process expecting to come out and join Qantas link and at the end, they give you some C210 time and tell you good luck with it....
Are there funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines?
No, there are no funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent pool, have access to our General Aviation partners and be part of the Academy Alumni Program, all of which will help to fast track your place in the recruitment process
Very different to being a cadet.
Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellacmp - PPRuNe Forums
Last edited by Clare Prop; 10th Jan 2023 at 06:04. Reason: Add a link
From the FAQ:
Are there funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines?
No, there are no funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent pool, have access to our General Aviation partners and be part of the Academy Alumni Program, all of which will help to fast track your place in the recruitment process
Very different to being a cadet.
Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellacmp - PPRuNe Forums
Are there funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines?
No, there are no funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent pool, have access to our General Aviation partners and be part of the Academy Alumni Program, all of which will help to fast track your place in the recruitment process
Very different to being a cadet.
Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellacmp - PPRuNe Forums
I wonder if that means KA is a General Aviation partner to the Academy Alumni Program. If so and the rumours that they do not pay the award then this is disgraceful on the part of the program.
One would hope that all partners to the program have been through a comprehensive auditing process, and one would hope this included employees conditions.
I shall pull my head in if I am taking this down the garden path.
If we’re looking to blame something, the blame should lie squarely with the training side of the industry. The salary structure for Instructors is appalling. They should be paying their instructors multiples more than they do to attract and retain the highly experienced among the pilot body. CASA should regulate to ensure only those with say more than say 5 years of airline (or military) plus another 5 years of solid single pilot charter experience be allowed to instruct.
Instructing must be lucrative enough to be a viable career option, not the hour building, time killing exercise waiting for some airline to employ you - which it has always been.
It’s cheap insurance if this adds say another $20K to the cost of a CPL.
With a few exceptions your 1000 hour instructor’s experience has always been repeating the same one hour in the circuit area 1000 times. The blind teaching the blind. And worse still, it’s a self perpetuating cycle. The standard of which can only get lower with each iteration.
(Disclaimer…. I have never been an instructor, nor have I ever aspired to be one)
Instructing must be lucrative enough to be a viable career option, not the hour building, time killing exercise waiting for some airline to employ you - which it has always been.
It’s cheap insurance if this adds say another $20K to the cost of a CPL.
With a few exceptions your 1000 hour instructor’s experience has always been repeating the same one hour in the circuit area 1000 times. The blind teaching the blind. And worse still, it’s a self perpetuating cycle. The standard of which can only get lower with each iteration.
(Disclaimer…. I have never been an instructor, nor have I ever aspired to be one)
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What is needed is pilots to use the resources of Fair Work and/or join the Union. Neither of them perfect, but if people are getting killed because of these reasons then it is worth a try, surely?
I had a chap from a well known HECS-type academy come in and drop off a resume the other day. Within the first two minutes he had said he would work for free. He probably wasn't expecting the lecture I gave him on that subject, nor that a 737 rating wasn't much good for single engine Day VFR with only 70 PIC.
He then revealed he had been in the same class as the unfortunate pilot who was in this accident.
I had a chap from a well known HECS-type academy come in and drop off a resume the other day. Within the first two minutes he had said he would work for free. He probably wasn't expecting the lecture I gave him on that subject, nor that a 737 rating wasn't much good for single engine Day VFR with only 70 PIC.
He then revealed he had been in the same class as the unfortunate pilot who was in this accident.
From the FAQ:
Are there funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines?
No, there are no funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent pool, have access to our General Aviation partners and be part of the Academy Alumni Program, all of which will help to fast track your place in the recruitment process
Very different to being a cadet.
Are there funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines?
No, there are no funded cadetships available with Qantas Group airlines. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent pool, have access to our General Aviation partners and be part of the Academy Alumni Program, all of which will help to fast track your place in the recruitment process
Very different to being a cadet.
However, quite a few of these graduates have been successful in gaining employment with Qantas Link lately with 1-2 per course since late 2021.
If we’re looking to blame something, the blame should lie squarely with the training side of the industry. The salary structure for Instructors is appalling. They should be paying their instructors multiples more than they do to attract and retain the highly experienced among the pilot body. CASA should regulate to ensure only those with say more than say 5 years of airline (or military) plus another 5 years of solid single pilot charter experience be allowed to instruct.
Instructing must be lucrative enough to be a viable career option, not the hour building, time killing exercise waiting for some airline to employ you - which it has always been.
It’s cheap insurance if this adds say another $20K to the cost of a CPL.
With a few exceptions your 1000 hour instructor’s experience has always been repeating the same one hour in the circuit area 1000 times. The blind teaching the blind. And worse still, it’s a self perpetuating cycle. The standard of which can only get lower with each iteration.
(Disclaimer…. I have never been an instructor, nor have I ever aspired to be one)
Instructing must be lucrative enough to be a viable career option, not the hour building, time killing exercise waiting for some airline to employ you - which it has always been.
It’s cheap insurance if this adds say another $20K to the cost of a CPL.
With a few exceptions your 1000 hour instructor’s experience has always been repeating the same one hour in the circuit area 1000 times. The blind teaching the blind. And worse still, it’s a self perpetuating cycle. The standard of which can only get lower with each iteration.
(Disclaimer…. I have never been an instructor, nor have I ever aspired to be one)
Whilst I do agree with you on the standard of training in Australia has dropped significantly since I learnt to fly. I don't think this played a MAJOR part in this very accident. It definitely played a part but maybe not a large one.
The thing is Instructing is never going to become a common career path in Australian GA. You'll find the odd career instructor but the money nor the big shiny heavy machinery just isn't there to lure people in. I agree there should be a minimum amount of hours (500 ish) before someone can get an instructor rating but I do think you'll just see less and less of them.
You said in your last comment, you never aspired to be an instructor.... Just like the rest of us yet someones gotta do it.
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Whilst I do agree with you on the standard of training in Australia has dropped significantly since I learnt to fly. I don't think this played a MAJOR part in this very accident. It definitely played a part but maybe not a large one.
The thing is Instructing is never going to become a common career path in Australian GA. You'll find the odd career instructor but the money nor the big shiny heavy machinery just isn't there to lure people in. I agree there should be a minimum amount of hours (500 ish) before someone can get an instructor rating but I do think you'll just see less and less of them.
You said in your last comment, you never aspired to be an instructor.... Just like the rest of us yet someones gotta do it.
In the ideal world, instructors would have done their time on the “big heavy shiny machinery”, and no longer lust for the “glory” of sitting in a cockpit staring out into the black sky for 12 hours trying desperately to stay awake because their body clock didn’t allow them to sleep for the preceding two days.
There are many who would give this up for the joy of sleeping in their own beds and a normal family life were the salary to be respectable. I’m thinking that a salary like something in the order of a junior captain on a narrow body would attract many very suitably qualified and experienced guys into the profession. And then there are those who may have lost their Class 1 medicals who just disappear taking with them tens of thousands of hours of valuable experience.
Perhaps more than anything else, an experienced pilot will impart the subtleties of maintaining a standard, the strength of character needed to just say “No” and most importantly instil a curiosity to keep learning. Plus the myriad of other tips, hints and tricks of the trade. Call it mentoring, if you will.
And yes, it would cost more to get a CPL but it’s a price worth paying. Instructing should be a respected and respectable career path which, sadly, it is not. (But for a few notable exceptions).
I also agree the actual mechanics of manipulating the controls can be taught by anyone, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn if there’s someone out there who together with YouTube taught themselves to fly to solo standard.
I was thinking that these more “expensive” instructors be a requirement for all CPL candidates.
Anyhow, enough of the thread drift from me.
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How about when I book a charter I’ll only pay 75% of the invoice because I’m ‘giving you a start’ in the charter business?
Nobody is doing anyone a favour by not paying them what they’re entitled to. These operators are turning a profit at the expense of the pilots.
Pilot turnover higher than you want it to be? Pay your people properly and treat them nicely it’s not that hard.
…all companies at that level are the same
I agree with Hamley.
There are GA operators who pay the award, operate aircraft below MTOW, get equipment fixed in a timely manner, and invest in pilot training.
Unfortunately, they get tarred with the same brush as those who....don’t.
There are also pilots who turn up, on time, in an ironed uniform with polished boots, who have actually looked at (and interpreted) the weather, and are keen to improve.
Fortunately, they stand out from the crowd...
There are GA operators who pay the award, operate aircraft below MTOW, get equipment fixed in a timely manner, and invest in pilot training.
Unfortunately, they get tarred with the same brush as those who....don’t.
There are also pilots who turn up, on time, in an ironed uniform with polished boots, who have actually looked at (and interpreted) the weather, and are keen to improve.
Fortunately, they stand out from the crowd...
Geeze,
At no stage did Kath Av force these guys to sign on, they offered opportunity. If you want the big bucks, be my guest go on and get it, all the best in getting that job with 200 hrs. Cant keep staff?? Well can say that when I was actually employed by KA I was pretty keen to just not be in Katherine or Ngukkur after 12 months.
Regardless of pay, I still made it work, and know what those leaner weeks felt like. For the most part I was generally getting from memory about 700-900 a week. I lived within my means and had a great time doing it.
The current owner was only a Co owner when I was there and I know for a fact that he would be absolutely devastated. He was an honest hard working guy, I had and still do have the upmost respect for him.
There are not that many operators in the country that CASA cannot keep tabs on them, if it where really so bad, these companies wouldn't be around anymore. The problem stems from all the fees that are associated with flying that keeps costs up and profits low (in GA anyhow). As for other companies low balling, can confirm that a multi millionaire (Daddy money) who runs a Conquest and Heli service out of Jandakot will gladly run his business at a loss just to keep others from getting work. Sounds pretty familiar to what QANTAS does and did to its competition in years gone bye.
Whinging and whining about award rates etc, fair work mumbo jumbo is a great way to weed the kind of attitudes that poison and ruin workplaces. I'm certainly no lawyer but I was not the kind of guy to turn down opportunities. Certainly didn't do it for free and knew that I had a skill and should be paid for it, was also acutely aware that I was the bottom of the food chain in terms of experience and that with time I would be rewarded. An attitude that I feel like the current crop of fresh CPL pilots seem to overlook- not a dig, I think its generational.
Now when I fly over the TN VOR at FL350 sipping a coffee, I'm grateful for all they gave me, the friendships fostered. The job that from humble beginnings, has taken me to all parts of the world and led me to the seat I now sit in.
At no stage did Kath Av force these guys to sign on, they offered opportunity. If you want the big bucks, be my guest go on and get it, all the best in getting that job with 200 hrs. Cant keep staff?? Well can say that when I was actually employed by KA I was pretty keen to just not be in Katherine or Ngukkur after 12 months.
Regardless of pay, I still made it work, and know what those leaner weeks felt like. For the most part I was generally getting from memory about 700-900 a week. I lived within my means and had a great time doing it.
The current owner was only a Co owner when I was there and I know for a fact that he would be absolutely devastated. He was an honest hard working guy, I had and still do have the upmost respect for him.
There are not that many operators in the country that CASA cannot keep tabs on them, if it where really so bad, these companies wouldn't be around anymore. The problem stems from all the fees that are associated with flying that keeps costs up and profits low (in GA anyhow). As for other companies low balling, can confirm that a multi millionaire (Daddy money) who runs a Conquest and Heli service out of Jandakot will gladly run his business at a loss just to keep others from getting work. Sounds pretty familiar to what QANTAS does and did to its competition in years gone bye.
Whinging and whining about award rates etc, fair work mumbo jumbo is a great way to weed the kind of attitudes that poison and ruin workplaces. I'm certainly no lawyer but I was not the kind of guy to turn down opportunities. Certainly didn't do it for free and knew that I had a skill and should be paid for it, was also acutely aware that I was the bottom of the food chain in terms of experience and that with time I would be rewarded. An attitude that I feel like the current crop of fresh CPL pilots seem to overlook- not a dig, I think its generational.
Now when I fly over the TN VOR at FL350 sipping a coffee, I'm grateful for all they gave me, the friendships fostered. The job that from humble beginnings, has taken me to all parts of the world and led me to the seat I now sit in.
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When I was at KA, I actually thought it was the hardest ICUS I'd done, albeit my first and probably the steepest learning curve. We would also take due diligence in preparation for flight and dress standards. We turned down flights due weather and certainly operated within limits, we did a manual W+B before each flight (actual weights, not standard). So I think the comment above could be a bit of a cheap shot.
Next time you're on a jet with all big miners on board, and you're close to MTOW, do you REALLY think that each bloke is 86 kg's?? Don't open the overweight takeoff argument, thats why standard weights exist, to circumnavigate that requirement.
Maybe things have changed?? I don't know, I was there many years ago. All the guys who worked there when I was there where great professionals.
Next time you're on a jet with all big miners on board, and you're close to MTOW, do you REALLY think that each bloke is 86 kg's?? Don't open the overweight takeoff argument, thats why standard weights exist, to circumnavigate that requirement.
Maybe things have changed?? I don't know, I was there many years ago. All the guys who worked there when I was there where great professionals.
Nobody is forcing any employer to provide less than minimum legal pay and conditions either. I have worked for the good and the bad, and I know the difference. Paying your staff less than award is a choice.
An equivalent is when bands play at a venue and are told they will get a free jug of beer as payment when there are clear award rates, to "get some practice"
Fair Work is there for a reason, use it.
Fair Work is there for a reason, use it.
The problem stems from all the fees that are associated with flying that keeps costs up and profits low (in GA anyhow).
Next time you're on a jet with all big miners on board, and you're close to MTOW, do you REALLY think that each bloke is 86 kg's?? Don't open the overweight takeoff argument, thats why standard weights exist, to circumnavigate that requirement.
There are not that many operators in the country that CASA cannot keep tabs on them, if it where really so bad, these companies wouldn't be around anymore.
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Yeah, and 500' AGL scud running to avoid cloud is commonplace. The only trouble is, that doesn't give one much time to react if you just happen to drive into/under a storm cell - not that it appears from the report that there was much he could have done anyways if that is indeed what happened.
Either way: Wrong place, wrong time.
Either way: Wrong place, wrong time.
Yeah, and 500' AGL scud running to avoid cloud is commonplace. The only trouble is, that doesn't give one much time to react if you just happen to drive into/under a storm cell - not that it appears from the report that there was much he could have done anyways if that is indeed what happened.
Either way: Wrong place, wrong time.
Either way: Wrong place, wrong time.
DF.