Australian Space Agency? Oh No!
Thread Starter
Australian Space Agency? Oh No!
Australia will create its own space agency in an attempt to cash in on a $420 billion aeronautical industry and create thousands of new jobs.
The first thing they will do is make any space based activity illegal without an ASA permit. The lawyers will then take over and follow the CASA template for industrial destruction, all of course at our expense.
Lots of lovely conferences and overseas trips for agency staff and for us, lots of lovely regulations beginning with: "A person must not....".
Australian space agency to employ thousands and tap $420b industry, Government says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Well if they carry on like our Navy and Airforce with dead in the water submarines and ship refuelling mishaps and non attacking attack Tiger choppers there is only one outcome apart from wasted heaps of money by duplicating research done by other countries.
"That rocket might work for the USA, Russia, India and North Korea, but we MUST have a home-made design for Australia's unique conditions, and it must be built in Christopher Pyne's electorate in SA, despite the lack of electricity there."
"Oh, and it has to be painted in rainbow colours and 50% of the space agency staff must be female and the other 50% has to be LGBTIPDGW people."
"Oh, and it has to be painted in rainbow colours and 50% of the space agency staff must be female and the other 50% has to be LGBTIPDGW people."
And the astronauts will need two spare pairs of glasses, expect a rigorous Pad Check at any time, and hold an ASIC for those lunar landaways.
Having said that, Cape York was mooted as a launch site years ago; not far from the equator, sea on both sides and the prospect of a massive restricted ground area to keep people out and allow wildlife to thrive. But imagine the squeals from the Greenies and the Aboriginal Industry.
Having said that, Cape York was mooted as a launch site years ago; not far from the equator, sea on both sides and the prospect of a massive restricted ground area to keep people out and allow wildlife to thrive. But imagine the squeals from the Greenies and the Aboriginal Industry.
Cape Launch site...altho twas in the days of our Dear Departed Dictator Bielke-Peterson..was a good idea, all the launch site attributes, but got washed away in a tsunami of 'negative waves'.
Site was at Temple Bay about 3/4 of the the way up the east coast..ideal
Just needed roads, port and airstrip to go with it.
Latest conflab is east Arnhem Land, abt the same latitude, but will need all the same infrastructure.
Those players who have the money to invest in the Space industry should be allowed to just get on with it, for the financial and technological rewards...and ffs keep bureaucrats well away....or as with aviation it will be a red tape nightmare clusterfcuk.
pity Pyne didnt live up the Cape...not only would we have a spaceport but a sub base as well..!!..perhaps.
Site was at Temple Bay about 3/4 of the the way up the east coast..ideal
Just needed roads, port and airstrip to go with it.
Latest conflab is east Arnhem Land, abt the same latitude, but will need all the same infrastructure.
Those players who have the money to invest in the Space industry should be allowed to just get on with it, for the financial and technological rewards...and ffs keep bureaucrats well away....or as with aviation it will be a red tape nightmare clusterfcuk.
pity Pyne didnt live up the Cape...not only would we have a spaceport but a sub base as well..!!..perhaps.
Jesus - you'd be a cheerful bunch of bastards wouldn't you!
Thread started by Aviation Optimist in Chief Sunfish I note.
Unbelievable `straya gets anything done with attitudes like that.
Look across the ditch and see what a coupla kiwis with no money, a can do approach and enough wick to get LMT interested have been able to accomplish at Mahia!
And I can tell you - the Tangata Whenua can be equally as obstructive as the greenies here.
Maybe it might work.
Thread started by Aviation Optimist in Chief Sunfish I note.
Unbelievable `straya gets anything done with attitudes like that.
Look across the ditch and see what a coupla kiwis with no money, a can do approach and enough wick to get LMT interested have been able to accomplish at Mahia!
And I can tell you - the Tangata Whenua can be equally as obstructive as the greenies here.
Maybe it might work.
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You got it, tartare. This forum has the same bunch of negative doom and gloom merchants that come out of the woodwork when the opportunity arises.
Back OT.
Christmas Island was considered as a launch site some years back, due to it's near equatorial location.
While it is Australian territory, it lies in Indonesian airspace, has an extensive route structure to the east along with populated islands, so it is not without it's problems.
Back OT.
Christmas Island was considered as a launch site some years back, due to it's near equatorial location.
While it is Australian territory, it lies in Indonesian airspace, has an extensive route structure to the east along with populated islands, so it is not without it's problems.
The mess that the corrupt turnBull helped make is causing dairy farmers to install diesel generators so they can get affordable power:
"...The Manns’ electricity costs have more than doubled in five years, from about $200,000 per annum to $500,000.
Due to the high prices, the family will this summer switch to diesel power to run their 116-stand rotary dairy and 14 irrigation centre pivots at Wye in the lower south east of South Australia..."
Some South Australian farmers going fully diesel for electricity « JoNova
So Australia's basic infrastructure is falling in a heap and off we go with a space agency............................
.
Whine, moan, bleat - oh woe is me.
You guys need to get out in the Sun and be thankful you live in a great country.
Actually, you probably need to do some aviating.
Oh - sorry - CASA's stuffed it all up for you hasn't it.
Sheesh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWcGUpWnfPM
Look at what your predecessors achieved!
https://vimeo.com/6292613
You should be ashamed of yourselves carryin' on like a bunch of little piggies...
Buckshot - good on ya mate.
You guys need to get out in the Sun and be thankful you live in a great country.
Actually, you probably need to do some aviating.
Oh - sorry - CASA's stuffed it all up for you hasn't it.
Sheesh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWcGUpWnfPM
Look at what your predecessors achieved!
https://vimeo.com/6292613
You should be ashamed of yourselves carryin' on like a bunch of little piggies...
Buckshot - good on ya mate.
Hey, we know we live in the greatest spot on the face of this planet, and probably most of the other planets as well, but our bureaucrats are the biggest bunch of phucknuckles ever to walk the corridors of power.
With a bit of Dick Smith in them, we might be able to progress the aviation industry, and with some Gerry Harvey and John Singleton, we could have some outstanding industries. But the greens and the pollies and the self-interest groups are killing everything.
We can't even tell a joke any more without being labelled a sexist, ageist, racist, colourist, meat-eating causer of the end of the world. If we could have sensible people in power, we could be better even than New Zillund. Except in Rugby.
With a bit of Dick Smith in them, we might be able to progress the aviation industry, and with some Gerry Harvey and John Singleton, we could have some outstanding industries. But the greens and the pollies and the self-interest groups are killing everything.
We can't even tell a joke any more without being labelled a sexist, ageist, racist, colourist, meat-eating causer of the end of the world. If we could have sensible people in power, we could be better even than New Zillund. Except in Rugby.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Whilst I took Ascend Charlie's posts in the humour (albeit cynical) mode that I suspect he meant them to be, I find that there may be more than a slight amount of truth in them.
Think carefully, fellow Ppruners, and consider just how some sections of the Media try to tell you how and what to think!
FWIW, I agree with him. And yes, I have been called a cynical so and so on more than one occasion.
Think carefully, fellow Ppruners, and consider just how some sections of the Media try to tell you how and what to think!
FWIW, I agree with him. And yes, I have been called a cynical so and so on more than one occasion.
We really think we are going to have a Space Agency. We can't even get regulations set properly in 25 years and that's for terrestrial craft. Sorry, Australia is falling apart. Thw worst thing for us was our sporting greatness in the 50's, from that, we have developed a superiority complex. We were great once, and we new it. We are not great anymore but we don't yet realize it yet.
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Silly me, I thought Musk and co are only visiting to try our lamingtons?
Blackholes and money remain the star attractions.
And yes, I have been called a cynical so and so on more than two occasions.
Blackholes and money remain the star attractions.
And yes, I have been called a cynical so and so on more than two occasions.
Last edited by cattletruck; 29th Sep 2017 at 15:05. Reason: The cynic in me found the cynic in me.
Thread Starter
Tartare:
Buckshot:
Written by two posters who are either ignorant or perhaps cynical and sarcastic.
Ignorant as in failing to reflect on Australian technical project performance and the unique combination of bureaucratic characteristics that destroys Australias hope of any competitive advantage.
Cynical and sarcastic? Perhaps they are having a lend and I missed it.
Australian technical project performance? Lets start with the Collins class submarine, the Seasprite program and, wait for it, the NBN - which has given us third world internet capbility at great cost. I could probably add the procurement of the F111, the F35, certain ship procurement projects as well. These were all late, over budget and did not necessarilyl produce the desired deliverables. In short the Government does not have an acceptable track record in procuring or managing advanced technology.
Oh sure, there was Jindivik, Malkara, Ikara, the Woomera satellite launch and one or two others but I would argue that they succeeded precisely because they were so far advanced for their time that Government either couldn’t or wouldn’t allow the bureaucracy to capture them. To put that another way, the bureaucrats couldn't get their hands on them.
Do we need a space organisation? We sure do! I have an acquaintance, well respected in the satellite instrument industry, who told me ten years ago that Australia needed to lift its game because the Thirty year era of free access to satellite based services (eg: weather data) was going to come to an end. Australia has developed and flown some really good space instruments, but they have piggy backed on other peoples rockets thanks to the deviousness and cunning of Australian academics.
So now we want a Federal Government space bureaucracy? Isn't the failure of NBN and the home insulation scheme enough? No! We really want to spend, spend, spend!
The first priority of the Space Office is its own survival, not delivering for Australia. Its about delivering for its political masters!
That means:
1) A snazzy logo and mission statement.
2) A regulatory foundation that establishes a stranglehold on any space based activity (including reception of data and control from Australian ground stations)..
3) A budget allocation preferably as a line item.
4) An office block ( complete with logo) in Canberra.
5) The infrastructure to go with items 1 to 4. That means support staff, accountants, HR, executives, etc. They will participate in the daily life of Canberra, starting with the establishment of working committees with CASA,, AsA, ATSB, Treasury, etc. etc.
But what about the mission?? Space stuff for Australia! The first priority, since they know nothing, is to pick the brains of the academics. That means more conferences and meetings as the academics patiently explain the industry to economics graduates who cant even change a tyre, let alone upgrade their phone software.
Out of that around AD2020 will come a space strategic plan.
After that comes procurement, which will take at least five years considering tender construction, RFT's, evaluation, awarding of contracts and thats not even allowing for slowdowns due to elections.
Along the way, there will be very expensive issues to be raised and dealt with, for example;
a) Since launches will be in the tropics, we will need an "indigenous space involvement plan" with its own bureaucracy.
b) The Greens will raise the issue of oxychlorate pollution from solid booster rocket exhaust and a host of other environmental matters.
c) Industry will push the "local content button" potentially doubling the cost of doing anything.
d) Endless political infighting about the locations of infrastructure in marginal electorates.
I could go on.
What would be better you ask?
1) Announce that Australia will purchase space services from the world, including Russia and China.
2) Kill the Space office idea.
3) establish a two person procurement group situated in the basement of the treasury building and reporting to Secretary of Treasury.
4) Establish a working committee of academics and industry to advise the procurement group.
5) Pass an Act to the effect that space activities are exempt from State and Federal law.That means that if Elon Musk wants to anchor a rocket launch or recovery raft somewhere in the gulf he can do so without endless red tape.
6) Stand back and watch the industry thrive.
To put it another way; the best Australian space policy is to keep the bureaucrats hands of it!
Jesus - you'd be a cheerful bunch of bastards wouldn't you!
Thread started by Aviation Optimist in Chief Sunfish I note.
Unbelievable `straya gets anything done with attitudes like that.
Look across the ditch and see what a coupla kiwis with no money,
Thread started by Aviation Optimist in Chief Sunfish I note.
Unbelievable `straya gets anything done with attitudes like that.
Look across the ditch and see what a coupla kiwis with no money,
This forum has the same bunch of negative doom and gloom merchants that come out of the woodwork when the opportunity arises.
Ignorant as in failing to reflect on Australian technical project performance and the unique combination of bureaucratic characteristics that destroys Australias hope of any competitive advantage.
Cynical and sarcastic? Perhaps they are having a lend and I missed it.
Australian technical project performance? Lets start with the Collins class submarine, the Seasprite program and, wait for it, the NBN - which has given us third world internet capbility at great cost. I could probably add the procurement of the F111, the F35, certain ship procurement projects as well. These were all late, over budget and did not necessarilyl produce the desired deliverables. In short the Government does not have an acceptable track record in procuring or managing advanced technology.
Oh sure, there was Jindivik, Malkara, Ikara, the Woomera satellite launch and one or two others but I would argue that they succeeded precisely because they were so far advanced for their time that Government either couldn’t or wouldn’t allow the bureaucracy to capture them. To put that another way, the bureaucrats couldn't get their hands on them.
Do we need a space organisation? We sure do! I have an acquaintance, well respected in the satellite instrument industry, who told me ten years ago that Australia needed to lift its game because the Thirty year era of free access to satellite based services (eg: weather data) was going to come to an end. Australia has developed and flown some really good space instruments, but they have piggy backed on other peoples rockets thanks to the deviousness and cunning of Australian academics.
So now we want a Federal Government space bureaucracy? Isn't the failure of NBN and the home insulation scheme enough? No! We really want to spend, spend, spend!
The first priority of the Space Office is its own survival, not delivering for Australia. Its about delivering for its political masters!
That means:
1) A snazzy logo and mission statement.
2) A regulatory foundation that establishes a stranglehold on any space based activity (including reception of data and control from Australian ground stations)..
3) A budget allocation preferably as a line item.
4) An office block ( complete with logo) in Canberra.
5) The infrastructure to go with items 1 to 4. That means support staff, accountants, HR, executives, etc. They will participate in the daily life of Canberra, starting with the establishment of working committees with CASA,, AsA, ATSB, Treasury, etc. etc.
But what about the mission?? Space stuff for Australia! The first priority, since they know nothing, is to pick the brains of the academics. That means more conferences and meetings as the academics patiently explain the industry to economics graduates who cant even change a tyre, let alone upgrade their phone software.
Out of that around AD2020 will come a space strategic plan.
After that comes procurement, which will take at least five years considering tender construction, RFT's, evaluation, awarding of contracts and thats not even allowing for slowdowns due to elections.
Along the way, there will be very expensive issues to be raised and dealt with, for example;
a) Since launches will be in the tropics, we will need an "indigenous space involvement plan" with its own bureaucracy.
b) The Greens will raise the issue of oxychlorate pollution from solid booster rocket exhaust and a host of other environmental matters.
c) Industry will push the "local content button" potentially doubling the cost of doing anything.
d) Endless political infighting about the locations of infrastructure in marginal electorates.
I could go on.
What would be better you ask?
1) Announce that Australia will purchase space services from the world, including Russia and China.
2) Kill the Space office idea.
3) establish a two person procurement group situated in the basement of the treasury building and reporting to Secretary of Treasury.
4) Establish a working committee of academics and industry to advise the procurement group.
5) Pass an Act to the effect that space activities are exempt from State and Federal law.That means that if Elon Musk wants to anchor a rocket launch or recovery raft somewhere in the gulf he can do so without endless red tape.
6) Stand back and watch the industry thrive.
To put it another way; the best Australian space policy is to keep the bureaucrats hands of it!
Last edited by Sunfish; 29th Sep 2017 at 22:57.
I'm definitely not having a lend - or being sarcastic.
Contemptuous would be more accurate... and I'm quite happy to do you slooowwllly.
What I observe are two things.
In life there are the defeatist whingers, the whiners and the complainers.
Then there are the people who just get on and do it - regardless of past supposed failures - perceived future obstacles and the length of the journey.
And they succeed.
Why don't you actually get off your chuff and try and do something about it, rather than just moaning all the time.
Ignorant?
Well... I'm always open to learning.
But on reflection - your suggestion to import aerospace technology from Russia and China for example appears a little naive and the product of about the same amount of thinking as the time it took for you to type it.
For example are you talking specifically developing an indigenous launch capability to geosynchronous orbit?
If so, what's the geopolitical situation in our region at the moment and ove the long term, how might it change?
Would your Russian and Chinese technology just arrive here - nicely packaged with no technicians, advisors, or, for example, accompanying bureaucrats who weren't really bureaucrats at all?
How might the ADF feel about having them in our backyard?
Owning one of our ports has caused enough of a ruckus.
What would happen if relationships with China and Russia deteriorated rapidly over, oh I don't know, some other issue that also involves rockets?
Or do you see this as some sort of rosy detente to embrace our Chinese and Russian friends to promote harmony through hardware sharing in a mutual space launch industry?
Have you noticed that while many countries contribute astronauts to each others programs - technology transfer is much more limited and difficult to achieve between non-aligned nations, particularly when it comes to launch technology.
Witness what's happened with the RD-180 in the US.
Want to share a little more detail?
Are you suggesting we shoot off Zenits or Long Marches from the tropical north Comrade? (Noting that's what Joh wanted to do, but the reasons for the failure of the Temple Bay proposal are a little more complex).
May be if you'd called out Ariane, given we seem to like French defence products? OK - possibly.
Or you're suggesting more limited technology transfer - avionics, payloads, engineering knowhow, supporting technology?
This at a time when the ASD won't even let Huawei connect to the NBN, and is gravely worried about China's increasing reach throughout the South Western Pacific's telecommunications infrastructure.
If you'd said follow the kiwi model and come up with incremental small scale, locally developed innovations that were clever enough to get backing from the world's largest defence contractor - who incidentally - has been operating in Australia virtually joined at the hip for the last few decades, then I might have taken you a little more seriously.
There's some great stuff going on here already - like the local cubesat manufacturers who think they may be able to deliver domestically developed IMINT capability to the ADF within a few years.
You can continue to complain friend, but personally - I don't take no for an answer and never have.
For example, this coming Wednesday, I'm meeting the Director of Strategy and his Policy Advisor from the Leader's Office of a major political party, one on one, to start to get major change underway in our sector.
What are you and your mates here doing in yours?
Bleating from the sidelines - as usual.
Because it's easier to do and requires less effort.
Off to get a pretentious North Shore latte and a smashed avo sandwich now... but welcoming the continuation of this little debate...
Contemptuous would be more accurate... and I'm quite happy to do you slooowwllly.
What I observe are two things.
In life there are the defeatist whingers, the whiners and the complainers.
Then there are the people who just get on and do it - regardless of past supposed failures - perceived future obstacles and the length of the journey.
And they succeed.
Why don't you actually get off your chuff and try and do something about it, rather than just moaning all the time.
Ignorant?
Well... I'm always open to learning.
But on reflection - your suggestion to import aerospace technology from Russia and China for example appears a little naive and the product of about the same amount of thinking as the time it took for you to type it.
For example are you talking specifically developing an indigenous launch capability to geosynchronous orbit?
If so, what's the geopolitical situation in our region at the moment and ove the long term, how might it change?
Would your Russian and Chinese technology just arrive here - nicely packaged with no technicians, advisors, or, for example, accompanying bureaucrats who weren't really bureaucrats at all?
How might the ADF feel about having them in our backyard?
Owning one of our ports has caused enough of a ruckus.
What would happen if relationships with China and Russia deteriorated rapidly over, oh I don't know, some other issue that also involves rockets?
Or do you see this as some sort of rosy detente to embrace our Chinese and Russian friends to promote harmony through hardware sharing in a mutual space launch industry?
Have you noticed that while many countries contribute astronauts to each others programs - technology transfer is much more limited and difficult to achieve between non-aligned nations, particularly when it comes to launch technology.
Witness what's happened with the RD-180 in the US.
Want to share a little more detail?
Are you suggesting we shoot off Zenits or Long Marches from the tropical north Comrade? (Noting that's what Joh wanted to do, but the reasons for the failure of the Temple Bay proposal are a little more complex).
May be if you'd called out Ariane, given we seem to like French defence products? OK - possibly.
Or you're suggesting more limited technology transfer - avionics, payloads, engineering knowhow, supporting technology?
This at a time when the ASD won't even let Huawei connect to the NBN, and is gravely worried about China's increasing reach throughout the South Western Pacific's telecommunications infrastructure.
If you'd said follow the kiwi model and come up with incremental small scale, locally developed innovations that were clever enough to get backing from the world's largest defence contractor - who incidentally - has been operating in Australia virtually joined at the hip for the last few decades, then I might have taken you a little more seriously.
There's some great stuff going on here already - like the local cubesat manufacturers who think they may be able to deliver domestically developed IMINT capability to the ADF within a few years.
You can continue to complain friend, but personally - I don't take no for an answer and never have.
For example, this coming Wednesday, I'm meeting the Director of Strategy and his Policy Advisor from the Leader's Office of a major political party, one on one, to start to get major change underway in our sector.
What are you and your mates here doing in yours?
Bleating from the sidelines - as usual.
Because it's easier to do and requires less effort.
Off to get a pretentious North Shore latte and a smashed avo sandwich now... but welcoming the continuation of this little debate...