Sheer Incompetence? Why would CASA and Airservices go for a less safe ADS-B system?
Thread Starter
Cheapest quote I can get is over $220,000 and they can't guarantee will meet FAA standards and I am presently attempting to sell the aircraft- most likely to a US buyer.
A Garmin mod may be able to be done for about $ 50,000 but will result in an amber message on the panel and CASA will no longer allow.
If I can get a sale in the US they don't want ADSB for another three years and don't want to have the useless expenditure now.
A Garmin mod may be able to be done for about $ 50,000 but will result in an amber message on the panel and CASA will no longer allow.
If I can get a sale in the US they don't want ADSB for another three years and don't want to have the useless expenditure now.
So if your trying to sell the citation in the states, and they don't need adsb for a while, why are you complaining so much? Just sell it!
And it's only "so called less safe" by you.
And it's only "so called less safe" by you.
Thread Starter
Le Ping. I will sell to anyone but so far no takers. It's a catch 22. If I fit the Aus ADSB no doubt I will then get a sale from the USA and it will have to be removed Crazy.
Nearly had a sale in Aus but the extra cost of ADSB and a FDR made it too expensive for the buyer. No FDR required in the USA even for charter .
Nearly had a sale in Aus but the extra cost of ADSB and a FDR made it too expensive for the buyer. No FDR required in the USA even for charter .
Last edited by Dick Smith; 19th May 2016 at 23:21.
Dick,
Here's an idea if you genuinely want to sell your Citation: Fly it over to the USA before the CASA ADSB requirement comes in. (Obviously you'll have more chance finding a buyer there than here.)
And then we can all have some peace and quiet.
Here's an idea if you genuinely want to sell your Citation: Fly it over to the USA before the CASA ADSB requirement comes in. (Obviously you'll have more chance finding a buyer there than here.)
And then we can all have some peace and quiet.
Dick, who told you DO-206A was the standard required for Australian ADS-B? It's not. It's acceptable but DO-206B is preferred. I know nothing about avionics but Google is very handy......
"Is the USA’s 1090ES standard more recent than that adopted in Australia?
The United States Federal Aviation Regulations (14CFR 91.227) specify that 1090ES equipment installed in US aircraft must comply with the most recent TSO C166b (DO-260B) standard. Australia’s regulations allow greater flexibility, permitting TSO C-166b or TSO-C166a (DO 260A), and even most TSO-C166 (DO 260) designs. There are already many successful installations of TSO-C166b equipment in Australian aircraft that are fully operable with the Australian ATC system and also fully compliant with the US rule. Australia designed its systems to operate with a wider range of equipment so that the benefits available to the Australian aviation industry could be achieved with minimal delay. Equally, Australia has less demanding GPS requirements. Some airline TSO C129 GPS systems are acceptable, providing they have the appropriate functionality and output interfaces. Notwithstanding the above, TSO-C166b transponders and TSO C145 and C146 navigation systems are preferred.".
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...1-11-MAY15.pdf
"Is the USA’s 1090ES standard more recent than that adopted in Australia?
The United States Federal Aviation Regulations (14CFR 91.227) specify that 1090ES equipment installed in US aircraft must comply with the most recent TSO C166b (DO-260B) standard. Australia’s regulations allow greater flexibility, permitting TSO C-166b or TSO-C166a (DO 260A), and even most TSO-C166 (DO 260) designs. There are already many successful installations of TSO-C166b equipment in Australian aircraft that are fully operable with the Australian ATC system and also fully compliant with the US rule. Australia designed its systems to operate with a wider range of equipment so that the benefits available to the Australian aviation industry could be achieved with minimal delay. Equally, Australia has less demanding GPS requirements. Some airline TSO C129 GPS systems are acceptable, providing they have the appropriate functionality and output interfaces. Notwithstanding the above, TSO-C166b transponders and TSO C145 and C146 navigation systems are preferred.".
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...1-11-MAY15.pdf
Thread Starter
" less demanding" requirements in Australia?
Far more demanding and costly because the mandate comes in years before the USA.
And this early mandate is not addressing any existing safety issue.
As I have said - get out of aviation now, before you lose even more.
Then Le Ping or his kids and grandkids may get a dose of what is being forced on GA. Only then will he see reason about the facts of affordability .
Now that would be justice! Even though bad for his descendants .
And don't forget the total selfish self interest of Airservices. They say we need mandatory ADSB because we don't have the surveillance coverage of the US- then to maximise profits haven't completed their end of the bargain and put in an adequate number of ground stations.
They put in 70 when 700 are needed. So we still don't have US type coverage even though we have the most expensive ADSB mandates in the world for GA.
Far more demanding and costly because the mandate comes in years before the USA.
And this early mandate is not addressing any existing safety issue.
As I have said - get out of aviation now, before you lose even more.
Then Le Ping or his kids and grandkids may get a dose of what is being forced on GA. Only then will he see reason about the facts of affordability .
Now that would be justice! Even though bad for his descendants .
And don't forget the total selfish self interest of Airservices. They say we need mandatory ADSB because we don't have the surveillance coverage of the US- then to maximise profits haven't completed their end of the bargain and put in an adequate number of ground stations.
They put in 70 when 700 are needed. So we still don't have US type coverage even though we have the most expensive ADSB mandates in the world for GA.
They put in 70 when 700 are needed.
Last edited by missy; 20th May 2016 at 01:00. Reason: .
I'm just a controller at the workface with zero influence on Airservices, CASA or government aviation policy so attacking me might make you feel good but will achieve nothing. And why attack my family?
I give you some information that might be correcting a misunderstanding on your part or some misinformation you've been given and could be to your advantage and you throw the above back in my face. Or are you just trolling? Nice.
I have sympathy for the costs to GA but as someone who isn't directly involved in GA who am I to put the argument? Even if I did I'd do a lousy job because I don't have the GA knowledge to back it up.
As it happens I'm ex-FS so I've had my dose of justice thanks very much. Forced down my throat 25 years ago by you personally. Yes, I converted to ATC but it came at considerable personal cost (I don't mean dollars).
I give you some information that might be correcting a misunderstanding on your part or some misinformation you've been given and could be to your advantage and you throw the above back in my face. Or are you just trolling? Nice.
I have sympathy for the costs to GA but as someone who isn't directly involved in GA who am I to put the argument? Even if I did I'd do a lousy job because I don't have the GA knowledge to back it up.
As it happens I'm ex-FS so I've had my dose of justice thanks very much. Forced down my throat 25 years ago by you personally. Yes, I converted to ATC but it came at considerable personal cost (I don't mean dollars).
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Is ADS-B the only reason Dick can't sell his Citation in the US? A quick search turned up a number of them for sale in the US. Why would someone there consider an unseen one from Australia?
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"Why would someone there consider an unseen one from Australia?"
Exactly the point.
Those that have spent the money to have ADSB fitted to their aircraft in Australia now have a diminished asset. To sell it overseas where most of the market is for these types of used aircraft will cost almost as much as the original installation to have it removed because Australian EO's are not recognised in the real aviation world.
What was the "real" reason for mandating ADSB in Australia years ahead of the rest of the world? From what I read the cost, measured against benefit, does not stack up.
Exactly the point.
Those that have spent the money to have ADSB fitted to their aircraft in Australia now have a diminished asset. To sell it overseas where most of the market is for these types of used aircraft will cost almost as much as the original installation to have it removed because Australian EO's are not recognised in the real aviation world.
What was the "real" reason for mandating ADSB in Australia years ahead of the rest of the world? From what I read the cost, measured against benefit, does not stack up.
Thread Starter
I believe the prime reason for the early mandate was ego. That is being able to claim Australia led the world.
The boffins who pushed for this had no understanding of the damage that would be done to GA.
Needs to be reversed by Jeff Boyd and his Board. Can easily be done as long as they have not been captured by the bureaucracy.
The boffins who pushed for this had no understanding of the damage that would be done to GA.
Needs to be reversed by Jeff Boyd and his Board. Can easily be done as long as they have not been captured by the bureaucracy.
How would Jeff Boyd and his Board reverse this? What powers does the CASA Board have? You, probably more than anyone else, should know the answer.
Jeff Boyd hasn't been captured.
He's been neutered.
One of the most experienced and credible of CASA's critics has been put in a position in which he has no power but the industry believes he does.
A master stroke by the people who run CASA.
They played it on you, remember?
Jeff Boyd hasn't been captured.
He's been neutered.
One of the most experienced and credible of CASA's critics has been put in a position in which he has no power but the industry believes he does.
A master stroke by the people who run CASA.
They played it on you, remember?
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 21st May 2016 at 00:25.
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Dick.....everything is getting worse everywhere and its always someone else's fault. ADSB came too early, or too late, with warning lights or without, too dear or too cheap. Too many ground stations or too few. Oh dear. :-( Maybe this will help.......an anthem for those terminally oppressed and gloomy
(as for me, bring back VARs and FSUs)
SAID HANRAHAN
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
In accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began,
One frosty Sunday morn.
The congregation stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,
As it had done for years.
"It's lookin' crook," said Daniel Croke;
"Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke
Has seasons been so bad."
"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,
With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel
And chewed a piece of bark.
And so around the chorus ran
"It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out.
"The crops are done; ye'll have your work
To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke
They're singin' out for rain.
"They're singin' out for rain," he said,
"And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.
"There won't be grass, in any case,
Enough to feed an ass;
There's not a blade on Casey's place
As I came down to Mass."
"If rain don't come this month," said Dan,
And cleared his throat to speak--
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If rain don't come this week."
A heavy silence seemed to steal
On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed a piece of bark.
"We want a inch of rain, we do,"
O'Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two
To put the danger past.
"If we don't get three inches, man,
Or four to break this drought,
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."
In God's good time down came the rain;
And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane
It drummed a homely tune.
And through the night it pattered still,
And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill
Kept talking to themselves.
It pelted, pelted all day long,
A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song
Way out to Back-o'Bourke.
And every creek a banker ran,
And dams filled overtop;
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If this rain doesn't stop."
And stop it did, in God's good time;
And spring came in to fold
A mantle o'er the hills sublime
Of green and pink and gold.
And days went by on dancing feet,
With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat
Nid-nodding o'er the fence.
And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place
Went riding down to Mass.
While round the church in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.
"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."
John O'Brien
(as for me, bring back VARs and FSUs)
SAID HANRAHAN
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
In accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began,
One frosty Sunday morn.
The congregation stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,
As it had done for years.
"It's lookin' crook," said Daniel Croke;
"Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke
Has seasons been so bad."
"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,
With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel
And chewed a piece of bark.
And so around the chorus ran
"It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out.
"The crops are done; ye'll have your work
To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke
They're singin' out for rain.
"They're singin' out for rain," he said,
"And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.
"There won't be grass, in any case,
Enough to feed an ass;
There's not a blade on Casey's place
As I came down to Mass."
"If rain don't come this month," said Dan,
And cleared his throat to speak--
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If rain don't come this week."
A heavy silence seemed to steal
On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed a piece of bark.
"We want a inch of rain, we do,"
O'Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two
To put the danger past.
"If we don't get three inches, man,
Or four to break this drought,
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."
In God's good time down came the rain;
And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane
It drummed a homely tune.
And through the night it pattered still,
And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill
Kept talking to themselves.
It pelted, pelted all day long,
A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song
Way out to Back-o'Bourke.
And every creek a banker ran,
And dams filled overtop;
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If this rain doesn't stop."
And stop it did, in God's good time;
And spring came in to fold
A mantle o'er the hills sublime
Of green and pink and gold.
And days went by on dancing feet,
With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat
Nid-nodding o'er the fence.
And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place
Went riding down to Mass.
While round the church in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.
"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."
John O'Brien
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Genex if no one ever complained how does change for the better come about?
If you think we should just harden and blindly accept every ill considered "Captains Call" thrust upon us by those holding power in aviation, then you either haven't thought about it very well or you subscribe to the old saw "Every man for himself cried the elephant as he danced among the chickens".
If you think we should just harden and blindly accept every ill considered "Captains Call" thrust upon us by those holding power in aviation, then you either haven't thought about it very well or you subscribe to the old saw "Every man for himself cried the elephant as he danced among the chickens".
