Mr Skidmore unmovable on ADSB
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Pb Balloon
We are meant to be a first world nation……..yeah I know. 
We also had a timely opportunity to execute the move, not do it ten years after.
Ever looked at ADSB paints around the globe…..we are not the only ones.
But that's not a sufficient reason to press ahead with a stupid decision, namely implementation before it happens in first world aviation nations.
We also had a timely opportunity to execute the move, not do it ten years after.
Ever looked at ADSB paints around the globe…..we are not the only ones.
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Enigma avionics, cool, were they actually approached and worked with CASA to price the ADSB in oz? or was it just something skidmark said to improve his already poor argument that he actually, did consult with industry?
Industry consultation started more than a decade ago! Why not ask Hans Seiker and deal in facts?
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Sky is falling
am I missing something? A quick search shows ADSB units for US$2k. For run of the mill GA aircraft not biz jets etc. A bit of money, yes, but if you own an aircraft this amount, while not pleasant, does happen from time to time. But then I don't own a Cessna so the extra insult is lost on me...
Lumps, yes, you are missing something.
1. In Australia, a High accuracy certified GPS is required to drive ADS-B out - $10,000 approximately. In the USA Dynon sells a GPS sensor for US$590 that drives their ADS-B solution, but of course that won't work in Australia, our air and climate is different…...
2. If the installation is in a certified aircraft, there needs to be an STC for it or you are up for an Engineering order to fit it - $$$$$$$. In Dick Smiths case for a Cessna Citation, that approaches $150,000, since no one has done the design work yet.
3. Last time I looked a ES squatter capable transponder was about A$3500.
Vag: The Enigma avionics ADS - B solution has been around for at least 18 months and is still not yet approved by CASA or Airservices. Based on prior experience, by the time it is approved, if it ever is at all, Garmin will have released a similar product and Enigmas time - to - market advantage will be destroyed and probably the little Australian company as well.
CASA likes it that way because they don't have to actually do anything innovative and risky, like taking responsibility for approving a ground breaking Australian product. Much better to drag their feet and let Garmin and the FAA approve the product type (ADS-B beacon, I think its called), then , If Enigma is still around, they can have an approval on the basis that their product does what the Garmin one does - hence no CASA responsibility for actually having to decide something.
I worked in the field of innovation for some Eight years and my advice generally was to take Australian inventions offshore to commercialise them. It was much easier then doing it here. For example stem cell stuff we sent to Singapore which doesn't have the catholic church and University and hospital ethics committees trying to block you at every step. Electronics? USA or China. Then of course there is the Australian BS associated with the taxation of share options, which is the way you generally remunerate workers in start up companies.
1. In Australia, a High accuracy certified GPS is required to drive ADS-B out - $10,000 approximately. In the USA Dynon sells a GPS sensor for US$590 that drives their ADS-B solution, but of course that won't work in Australia, our air and climate is different…...
2. If the installation is in a certified aircraft, there needs to be an STC for it or you are up for an Engineering order to fit it - $$$$$$$. In Dick Smiths case for a Cessna Citation, that approaches $150,000, since no one has done the design work yet.
3. Last time I looked a ES squatter capable transponder was about A$3500.
Vag: The Enigma avionics ADS - B solution has been around for at least 18 months and is still not yet approved by CASA or Airservices. Based on prior experience, by the time it is approved, if it ever is at all, Garmin will have released a similar product and Enigmas time - to - market advantage will be destroyed and probably the little Australian company as well.
CASA likes it that way because they don't have to actually do anything innovative and risky, like taking responsibility for approving a ground breaking Australian product. Much better to drag their feet and let Garmin and the FAA approve the product type (ADS-B beacon, I think its called), then , If Enigma is still around, they can have an approval on the basis that their product does what the Garmin one does - hence no CASA responsibility for actually having to decide something.
I worked in the field of innovation for some Eight years and my advice generally was to take Australian inventions offshore to commercialise them. It was much easier then doing it here. For example stem cell stuff we sent to Singapore which doesn't have the catholic church and University and hospital ethics committees trying to block you at every step. Electronics? USA or China. Then of course there is the Australian BS associated with the taxation of share options, which is the way you generally remunerate workers in start up companies.
Last edited by Sunfish; 6th May 2016 at 21:49.
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Thread Starter
At the Tamworth meeting the CASA Chairman stated that he understood that the Feburuary ADSB mandate could not be put off to 2021 because Airservices had made plans which would preclude this.
Any idea what these plans could be?
I understood all the SSR s were being kept and as AsA have resolutely refused to support the NAS decision to bring in terminal E - what is the reason for the early mandate - other than so Airservices can win an award for being first in the world to send an industry into bankruptcy ?
Any idea what these plans could be?
I understood all the SSR s were being kept and as AsA have resolutely refused to support the NAS decision to bring in terminal E - what is the reason for the early mandate - other than so Airservices can win an award for being first in the world to send an industry into bankruptcy ?
Thread Starter
Remember. Once you fit ADSB you lose every bit of privacy you may ever have had flying VFR.
Friends and enemies alike will be able to follow nearly your every move in the air on their iPhones.
Imagine if every Aussie family that went for a weekend drive had to fit a transmitter to their car so everyone else in this country could follow everywhere they went and stopped.
There would be a huge outcry.
Friends and enemies alike will be able to follow nearly your every move in the air on their iPhones.
Imagine if every Aussie family that went for a weekend drive had to fit a transmitter to their car so everyone else in this country could follow everywhere they went and stopped.
There would be a huge outcry.
But, Dick, if aircraft had ADSB fitted, we would not still be searching for aircraft in the Barrington Tops for 30 years, would we?
And although it is not a requirement for vehicles to be fitted with ADSB, an ambulance fitted with a GPS led police to the murderer of a nurse in a remote community fairly quickly, didn't it? And helped the recovery of her body fairly quickly, to allow her suffering family some closure. Imagine if Peter Falconios Kombi or his murderer's vehicle had been fitted with GPS / ADSB...
And although it is not a requirement for vehicles to be fitted with ADSB, an ambulance fitted with a GPS led police to the murderer of a nurse in a remote community fairly quickly, didn't it? And helped the recovery of her body fairly quickly, to allow her suffering family some closure. Imagine if Peter Falconios Kombi or his murderer's vehicle had been fitted with GPS / ADSB...
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Air Safety Improvements
Can anyone tell me one positive improvement ou new director of CASA has done to improve aviation in Australia?
This is a genuine question and I'd like to hear from others.
This is a genuine question and I'd like to hear from others.
Thread Starter
Out. Possibly not if it fluked going missing in about 10% of our low level airspace that is covered by AsA ADSB ground stations at low levels.
Your other examples would not have been assisted by the ADSB mandate for the above reasons.
I will stick to my spider track unit for Sar purposes as it works all across Australia and all around the world to ground level and is private .
For enroute collision avoidance at low levels I will keep my eyes open and remain vigilant.
Your other examples would not have been assisted by the ADSB mandate for the above reasons.
I will stick to my spider track unit for Sar purposes as it works all across Australia and all around the world to ground level and is private .
For enroute collision avoidance at low levels I will keep my eyes open and remain vigilant.
Dick, I question your assertion that only 10 per cent of our country is covered by the ground stations.
I was flying VFR in a ADSB fitted aircraft at 1000 feet, with a company SAR, on the Nullarbor coastline. I was called up by Melbourne, by call sign, for a radio check. Ditto while operating in the Channel country. I would not have previously thought that either of those locations / heights were in the magic "10 per cent".
I believe that if your friends or family or (like some of us) have staff flying paying passengers in a remote location, and went missing, I believe you would be very grateful that the aircraft was fitted with ADSB, allowing for an accurate location to be identified quickly in case of emergency.
I know I would be.
I was flying VFR in a ADSB fitted aircraft at 1000 feet, with a company SAR, on the Nullarbor coastline. I was called up by Melbourne, by call sign, for a radio check. Ditto while operating in the Channel country. I would not have previously thought that either of those locations / heights were in the magic "10 per cent".
I believe that if your friends or family or (like some of us) have staff flying paying passengers in a remote location, and went missing, I believe you would be very grateful that the aircraft was fitted with ADSB, allowing for an accurate location to be identified quickly in case of emergency.
I know I would be.
Thread Starter
At 1000' less than 10% of Australia has ADSB coverage. You just chanced on being line of site of an outlet twice!
Don't self delude about technology . In a few years the iridium system will receive ADSB to ground level everywhere but you will need an antenna on the top of your aircraft!
And you won't need Airservices and their huge overheads.
I challenge Airservices to publish the ADSB coverage at typical VFR helicopter levels of 1000'.
Bet they won't .
The US has 90% coverage at 1000' agl and that required over 600 stations- not a pathetic 60.
Don't self delude about technology . In a few years the iridium system will receive ADSB to ground level everywhere but you will need an antenna on the top of your aircraft!
And you won't need Airservices and their huge overheads.
I challenge Airservices to publish the ADSB coverage at typical VFR helicopter levels of 1000'.
Bet they won't .
The US has 90% coverage at 1000' agl and that required over 600 stations- not a pathetic 60.
Thread Starter
A number of months ago I was told that part of an industrial agreement AsA had with the ATC Union Civil Air resulted in the IFR mandate being used as a bargaining tool. That is less workload for ATCs if aircraft have ADSB.
Can anyone throw any light on this. its outrageous if true .
The so claimed 90% already fitted is already causing a lowering of safety as resources are moved from real safety improvement areas. It's clearly one of the reasons GA is almost destroyed .
Are these industrial agreements secret? Surely not in a monopoly?
Can anyone throw any light on this. its outrageous if true .
The so claimed 90% already fitted is already causing a lowering of safety as resources are moved from real safety improvement areas. It's clearly one of the reasons GA is almost destroyed .
Are these industrial agreements secret? Surely not in a monopoly?