Airservices ADSB con - Sydney and Canberra.
Thread Starter
Airservices ADSB con - Sydney and Canberra.
I spent over $100 k in upgrading the Caravan to the latest Garmin equipment including iridium weather ( fantastic ) and ADSB.
On a recent flight from Banstown to Gundaroo I asked Sydney radar on 124.55 if my ADSB was working.
They came back and informed me that the Sydney terminal could not receive ADSB as there was no equipment fitted.
On approaching Canberra I asked Canberra approach on 124.5 the same question. Once again the answer was the same- no receiving equipment to show ADSB readouts in the approach facility in Melbourne.
This is clearly outrageous. The best safety benefit from the better accuracy of ADSB is in the terminal area where aircraft are both closer together and closer to granite filled clouds.
CASA at the instigation of Airservices are forcing in the most onerous GA ADSB requirements in the world , costing the GA industry -on the CASA figures over $30 million - yet they are clearly putting profits before safety and not fitting ADSB to their terminal units .
We must stop the next ADSB mandate of February next year because it will further destroy GA.
Maybe little hope because both AsA and CASA are run by military people who have always had taxpayer funding in their previous careers
On a recent flight from Banstown to Gundaroo I asked Sydney radar on 124.55 if my ADSB was working.
They came back and informed me that the Sydney terminal could not receive ADSB as there was no equipment fitted.
On approaching Canberra I asked Canberra approach on 124.5 the same question. Once again the answer was the same- no receiving equipment to show ADSB readouts in the approach facility in Melbourne.
This is clearly outrageous. The best safety benefit from the better accuracy of ADSB is in the terminal area where aircraft are both closer together and closer to granite filled clouds.
CASA at the instigation of Airservices are forcing in the most onerous GA ADSB requirements in the world , costing the GA industry -on the CASA figures over $30 million - yet they are clearly putting profits before safety and not fitting ADSB to their terminal units .
We must stop the next ADSB mandate of February next year because it will further destroy GA.
Maybe little hope because both AsA and CASA are run by military people who have always had taxpayer funding in their previous careers
I think you'll find that ADS-B is just suppressed for the TCUs because we don't yet have approval for 3NM separation using ADS-B. The equipment is very definitely there as in en-route we see ADS-B returns off the deck at Melbourne and Sydney. That's very definitely using equipment based at and around the airport as we were still seeing it with Mt Macedon radar off - exactly the same equipment ML TMA uses.
Dick's Posting Checklist:
- mention that I have lots of money
- mention that I went flying
- mention that I wasn't happy about something
- mention that I blame the military
Posting Checklist Complete.
- mention that I have lots of money
- mention that I went flying
- mention that I wasn't happy about something
- mention that I blame the military
Posting Checklist Complete.
After worrying about having to find 30k plus to do ADSB a quality avionics shop now tells me he has a tsp with built in gps for around 6k
If that is so then what's all the hype about as this price IS affordable
If that is so then what's all the hype about as this price IS affordable
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Thread Starter
Dhav. And what advantage do you get?
Still just get a traffic information service and you will have to call the other pilots if in IMC and arrange your own separation.
Also now everyone will be able to track your every flight on their iPhone .
Then again. Who cares about privacy.
Still just get a traffic information service and you will have to call the other pilots if in IMC and arrange your own separation.
Also now everyone will be able to track your every flight on their iPhone .
Then again. Who cares about privacy.
Why not Fly VFR and enjoy the ride and the sights....
ADSB not req'd for VFR....for now anyway.....
Cheers
ADSB not req'd for VFR....for now anyway.....
Cheers
Indeed a particularly perspicacious comment comment, Griffo.
CASA DAS/CEO Skidmore has now made his views known on several public occasions --- and he is quite clear, despite his views being totally contrary to his own published "policy" on regulation", which includes genuinely risk based and cost/benefit justified, or Government regulatory policy generally.
All aircraft should have mandatory ADS- B OUT.
Tootle pip!!
Benifit of ADSB. at present none. Privacy issues, very little as our business model is basically IFR in and out of YSBK, the rest of the time VFR.
I do agree an unnessary impost but if ASA haven't lied and it does assist in collision avoidance then I'm ok spending the money. Problem is being a quasi government organisation I doubt they are telling the whole truth and it's about hidden agendas.
It should be mandatory viewing for next Tuesday night "A house of Cards" basically a more sinister "Yes minister". Then you will understand ASA and CASA, AND HOW THEY OPERATE.
I do agree an unnessary impost but if ASA haven't lied and it does assist in collision avoidance then I'm ok spending the money. Problem is being a quasi government organisation I doubt they are telling the whole truth and it's about hidden agendas.
It should be mandatory viewing for next Tuesday night "A house of Cards" basically a more sinister "Yes minister". Then you will understand ASA and CASA, AND HOW THEY OPERATE.
but if ASA haven't lied and it does assist in collision avoidance then I'm ok spending the money.
Yes they have, and no, it isn't.
I doubt they are telling the whole truth and it's about hidden agendas.
A huge capital and substantial operating cost has been transferred to the industry, without any commensurate reductions in Airservices charges. Indeed, until a few days ago, a significant price increase was published, but the airlines killed that stone dead.
Elsewhere, I see media references to an already major blowout on the project de jour, and I don't think the primary contract with Thales has even been finalised???
Tootle pip!!
Leadsled,
WhenI imported my aircraft it had an extremely good 129 GPS with a large Appollo MFD which is great for older pilots with glasses.
My horror was I'd have to upgrade to a 146 GPS with associated costs.
Now it appears I can do the intergrated TX to comply for around 6K
My intention is to now do the cheap for the time being and wait for the next generation which is probably about 12 to 18 months away.
Then I'll do a complete refurb with with Aspen type displays, satellite radar and the latest GPS
WhenI imported my aircraft it had an extremely good 129 GPS with a large Appollo MFD which is great for older pilots with glasses.
My horror was I'd have to upgrade to a 146 GPS with associated costs.
Now it appears I can do the intergrated TX to comply for around 6K
My intention is to now do the cheap for the time being and wait for the next generation which is probably about 12 to 18 months away.
Then I'll do a complete refurb with with Aspen type displays, satellite radar and the latest GPS
Shouldn't this read "very large savings to Industry".
No.
Industry is stuck with the costs of the GNSS upgrades, Airservices reaps the cost benefits of pulling the ground based aids.
The benefits of the GNSS upgrades are so far, illusory, existing largely in the minds of the proponents ( a wonderful example of "proponent bias", if you understand the Commonwealth government guidelines for assessment of "mandatory" cost/benefit statements) and there is no evidence of any of the cost savings being passed through to the "clients".
Re. ADSB. The demonstrable benefits re. airlines in AU is, so far, nil, the claimed present and future benefits deserve the same comments as GNSS above.
The FAA views on the reasons for having an ADS-B mandate (or Eurocontrol, for that matter) is instructive, compared to the promotional sales pitch here, and the "pie -in-the-sky" Airservices claims.
In contrast, RVSM has been shown to have produced significant measurable $$$ benefits, the cost/benefit analysis was positive, and has been borne out in practice.
Tootle pip!!
With a decent display you may not need to arrange separation over the radio, you will have massively improved situational awareness of all aircraft around you.
If I understand the situation correctly as it applies to Oz, it is an issue of implementation method and cost allocation. The benefits of ADSB should, however be self evident. Should there be a lobby for rebates on upgrades or similar?
Surely getting rid of relatively inaccurate ground based aids is simply a matter of time. You know, like getting out of the 30s/50s/90s thinking and into the 20s....
If I understand the situation correctly as it applies to Oz, it is an issue of implementation method and cost allocation. The benefits of ADSB should, however be self evident. Should there be a lobby for rebates on upgrades or similar?
Surely getting rid of relatively inaccurate ground based aids is simply a matter of time. You know, like getting out of the 30s/50s/90s thinking and into the 20s....
Re
"With a decent display you may not need to arrange separation over the radio, you will have massively improved situational awareness of all aircraft around you."
ONLY if ALL aircraft around you are ADSB equipped - Note VFR - NIL Requirement.....yet.....
And of course you will need ADSB -IN as well.
I guess that most are aware of the requirement for ALL VFR acft placed on the OZ register after Feb 6, 2014, operating in Class A, B, C, E or in G above 10,000ft, AND acft installing new Txpdrs after the same date , like now, to have installed a Mode S transponder (with Flight ID input) which is ADSB capable.
Mode C is acceptable Below A100 in Class G and Class D.
Now opens the can of worms re costing of buying, fitting, (EO..?) etc etc
Have recently been quoted at just under $10K for a Garmin GTX-345 S-Mode, fitted with antenna (GA35) for a '172' type.
Also note the para quoted from the AsA handout, which says in part -
"Any Mode S Transponder purchased for use in OZ must be capable of receiving data from a GPS and transmitting ADS-B messages"
Might be a cloo here??
There is more, but i'm orf to the footy.....
Cheers
"With a decent display you may not need to arrange separation over the radio, you will have massively improved situational awareness of all aircraft around you."
ONLY if ALL aircraft around you are ADSB equipped - Note VFR - NIL Requirement.....yet.....
And of course you will need ADSB -IN as well.
I guess that most are aware of the requirement for ALL VFR acft placed on the OZ register after Feb 6, 2014, operating in Class A, B, C, E or in G above 10,000ft, AND acft installing new Txpdrs after the same date , like now, to have installed a Mode S transponder (with Flight ID input) which is ADSB capable.
Mode C is acceptable Below A100 in Class G and Class D.
Now opens the can of worms re costing of buying, fitting, (EO..?) etc etc
Have recently been quoted at just under $10K for a Garmin GTX-345 S-Mode, fitted with antenna (GA35) for a '172' type.
Also note the para quoted from the AsA handout, which says in part -
"Any Mode S Transponder purchased for use in OZ must be capable of receiving data from a GPS and transmitting ADS-B messages"
Might be a cloo here??
There is more, but i'm orf to the footy.....
Cheers
Folks,
Don't forget the ADS-B mandate is only for "-OUT", and, as far as I know, few of the HCRPT fits are "-IN", because they already have TCAS II, load 7.1, and see a Mode C transponder, as well as, obviously, other ACAS/TCAS equipped aircraft.
TCAS is the "last ditch" collision avoidance device, not ADS-B.
ADS-B is primarily an ATC tool, it is NOT intended as a primary collision avoidance device, despite all the hype peculiar to Australia, where mid air collision risk is an obsession, despite other much greater threats.
Tootle pip!!
Don't forget the ADS-B mandate is only for "-OUT", and, as far as I know, few of the HCRPT fits are "-IN", because they already have TCAS II, load 7.1, and see a Mode C transponder, as well as, obviously, other ACAS/TCAS equipped aircraft.
TCAS is the "last ditch" collision avoidance device, not ADS-B.
ADS-B is primarily an ATC tool, it is NOT intended as a primary collision avoidance device, despite all the hype peculiar to Australia, where mid air collision risk is an obsession, despite other much greater threats.
Tootle pip!!