ATSB Report on low hour copilots flight safety in RPT operations.
An apprentice builder turns up with all the right tools on day 1, but learns through experience to deal with contingencies that cant all be covered in trade school. The big difference is that if the master builder falls over on the job, the apprentice isn't expected to finish the house.
Builder analogy OK up to a point. First Officers are apprentices, certainly in the first few years anyway. Practically, it is impossible to teach a new F/O everything or skill needed to be able to do it all in all potential situations before turning them loose in the cockpit. Think of the time and the cost that would involve. Three years and 2000 hours wouldn't even go close.
F/Os learn on the job. The acquisition of flying skills is an individual thing that is as much about the quality of their training and their natural aptitude as any prior experience. To reduce the risks associated with having someone totally new in an operating seat, most airlines have a policy of carrying a third crewmember in the jump-seat for the first few line flights.
After those first flights, should the worst happen and the master-builder fall over, most cadets I have come across would have the discipline and intelligence to divert somewhere easy, plug in the automatics and get the house down safely.
We don't legislate for double failures in twins, so neither need we legislate for a captain croaking it concurrent with some other catastrophe.
F/Os learn on the job. The acquisition of flying skills is an individual thing that is as much about the quality of their training and their natural aptitude as any prior experience. To reduce the risks associated with having someone totally new in an operating seat, most airlines have a policy of carrying a third crewmember in the jump-seat for the first few line flights.
After those first flights, should the worst happen and the master-builder fall over, most cadets I have come across would have the discipline and intelligence to divert somewhere easy, plug in the automatics and get the house down safely.
We don't legislate for double failures in twins, so neither need we legislate for a captain croaking it concurrent with some other catastrophe.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 26th Jul 2013 at 06:00.
The reality in Australia is that most people in ground schools for Jet Airlines in Australia already have multi crew turboprop experience or flown jets. These comparison of cadets vs guys with 500 hours VFR are not realistic. Its cadets vs guys with 5000 hours+ we're talking about. The incidents that cadets are having have been unheard of before.
As costs of gaining a CPL and IR rise beyond the reach of all but the wealthy, the days of self-funded training, followed by a few years in GA are numbered. Elsewhere there has been debate about whether GA is a career. If it is(??), the self-funded route to a CPL is still appropriate. But some would say a very poor return on investment.
Even with low time cadets in the RHS, the airlines are not suffering any real safety crisis due to a lack of suitable pilots. However, looking at recent repeat adverts for turbine checkies and trainers in the Northern Territory, it appears that GA could have a serious problem that will only get worse as the old guard fade away into the sunset.
Cadet programs will be the preferred pathway to an airline career in the future. Short of being trained at taxpayer expense via the military, I see no other way for a young person just starting out. Unless they have a rich Mummy and Daddy. People like that often don't want to go bush to do the hard yards and often Mummy and Daddy don't want them associating with the riff-raff one finds in the bush. Terrible people, like helicopter mustering pilots and tall, blonde European backpackers.....
Even with low time cadets in the RHS, the airlines are not suffering any real safety crisis due to a lack of suitable pilots. However, looking at recent repeat adverts for turbine checkies and trainers in the Northern Territory, it appears that GA could have a serious problem that will only get worse as the old guard fade away into the sunset.
Cadet programs will be the preferred pathway to an airline career in the future. Short of being trained at taxpayer expense via the military, I see no other way for a young person just starting out. Unless they have a rich Mummy and Daddy. People like that often don't want to go bush to do the hard yards and often Mummy and Daddy don't want them associating with the riff-raff one finds in the bush. Terrible people, like helicopter mustering pilots and tall, blonde European backpackers.....
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 26th Jul 2013 at 06:24.
Mach, in bad weather with a system(s) failure and heavy traffic, would you prefer to work with a new cadet, (attitude, aptitude,discipline being equal) or someone who is also new on type but who has come in from the left seat of a regional? Surely some good prior command experience in the right seat could come in handy at times.
What could make it preferable for an airline to disregard/discount prior experience? Cost!
Look at Cathay - hiring minimums dropped, along with salary. Jetstar have the same ambition, although they have encountered a few more hurdles bringing in a new pilot group on a reduced cost base.
I won't pretend for a minute that we don't need cadet/MPL programs, particularly in areas without a general aviation sector to draw from. I also agree that good outcomes come down to good training and good discipline. What does irk me is when selective reporting is used to discount experience in order to further an economic agenda or to reduce pilot terms and conditions.
In a similar way, airlines trot out pilot shortages to achieve crewing aims with minimum time/cost outlay. Look at The situation in NZ currently. More pilots than you can poke a stick at, many with RPT time who would love to move back home. Yet we are told there is a pilot shortage requiring foreign visas to be issued.
We can talk about the pros and cons of experience all we like, but the decision makers are also concerned with cost competitiveness and shareholder returns, so long as they can meet the minimum regulatory requirements. In other words, acceptable losses.
In regards to cost - the cadet programs I am aware of are considerably more expensive than getting your licenses independently.
What could make it preferable for an airline to disregard/discount prior experience? Cost!
Look at Cathay - hiring minimums dropped, along with salary. Jetstar have the same ambition, although they have encountered a few more hurdles bringing in a new pilot group on a reduced cost base.
I won't pretend for a minute that we don't need cadet/MPL programs, particularly in areas without a general aviation sector to draw from. I also agree that good outcomes come down to good training and good discipline. What does irk me is when selective reporting is used to discount experience in order to further an economic agenda or to reduce pilot terms and conditions.
In a similar way, airlines trot out pilot shortages to achieve crewing aims with minimum time/cost outlay. Look at The situation in NZ currently. More pilots than you can poke a stick at, many with RPT time who would love to move back home. Yet we are told there is a pilot shortage requiring foreign visas to be issued.
We can talk about the pros and cons of experience all we like, but the decision makers are also concerned with cost competitiveness and shareholder returns, so long as they can meet the minimum regulatory requirements. In other words, acceptable losses.
In regards to cost - the cadet programs I am aware of are considerably more expensive than getting your licenses independently.
I see no other way for a young person just starting out. Unless they have a
rich Mummy and Daddy.
rich Mummy and Daddy.
As costs of gaining a CPL and IR rise beyond the reach of all but the wealthy,
P.S. I'm not talking about over priced cadetship type schemes.
Last edited by 27/09; 28th Jul 2013 at 06:49.
4Greens At the risk of being very controversial - there are ex military pilots and then there are the others.
At the risk of being very controversial - there are ex military pilots and
then there are the others.
then there are the others.
I would agree with that statement, the statement can be read either way depending on your experience with ex-military pilots!
You owe me a new keyboard free of red wine stains! 
Liked that above comment to
, I read it as the 'others' are the good ones!
The ex Military drivers are mostly hard work, they come from a pedestal environment where they are taught to be better than the rest of the plebs out there & it shows & not always in a favorable way either!
There's plenty of good pilots out there that have never held any rank.
I guess the traditional route of climbing that slippery pole to the top into a big shinny jet will change 4ever & in the not too distance future, sad really as you earned respect & experience along the way & gained the most valuable tool in yr bag of tricks, airman-ship, like the B727, outdated & no longer needed
Wmk2
, I read it as the 'others' are the good ones!The ex Military drivers are mostly hard work, they come from a pedestal environment where they are taught to be better than the rest of the plebs out there & it shows & not always in a favorable way either!
There's plenty of good pilots out there that have never held any rank.
I guess the traditional route of climbing that slippery pole to the top into a big shinny jet will change 4ever & in the not too distance future, sad really as you earned respect & experience along the way & gained the most valuable tool in yr bag of tricks, airman-ship, like the B727, outdated & no longer needed
Wmk2
Supposedly in Indonesia, to put an end to all these p2f schemes and cadetships, they have introduced something very similar to the FAA 1500 hour rule. To be able to fly an aircraft on RPT routes you must either have 250 hours on type or have 1500 hours with ATPL subjects completed.
Its a bit embarrassing to see that Indonesia has beaten CASA to introducing something similar to the FAA 1500 hour requirement.
Its a bit embarrassing to see that Indonesia has beaten CASA to introducing something similar to the FAA 1500 hour requirement.
Last edited by pull-up-terrain; 2nd Aug 2013 at 13:15.
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The ex Military drivers are mostly hard work,
Last edited by A37575; 2nd Aug 2013 at 13:21.
