casa and the Coroners Courts
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Law & Safety
Interesting! JA is obviously a cleaver lawyer (or at least well versed in administrative law); but how does this make him a good aviation safety regulator?
I guess that I'm one of a number of 'moderates' who think that there is too much CASA emphasis on LAW these days, and not enough on SAFETY. Whilst there may be cross-overs between the two concepts; absolute compliance does not assure safety - is not that SMS lesson 101?
I guess that I'm one of a number of 'moderates' who think that there is too much CASA emphasis on LAW these days, and not enough on SAFETY. Whilst there may be cross-overs between the two concepts; absolute compliance does not assure safety - is not that SMS lesson 101?
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Not convinced.
Not totally, that the voodoo that he do is the hoodoo we know so well. Seems he is in a cleft stick, no juice to affect the change and hamstrung by a total and utter non comprehension of anything not completely academic (like aircraft). There is course the 'gruesome twosome' to contend with.
Or, perhaps "the book" has become the Bible of the CASA mantra, you know all the psychic stuff they do nowadays. Perhaps the regs have been changed, we just didn't read "the book".
Quick ring Dymocks before they get sold out.
Or, perhaps "the book" has become the Bible of the CASA mantra, you know all the psychic stuff they do nowadays. Perhaps the regs have been changed, we just didn't read "the book".
Quick ring Dymocks before they get sold out.
Last edited by Kharon; 24th Jan 2012 at 20:04. Reason: Mischief managed.
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NSW Coroners Courts
Here is a question for those in the "Legal Eagle" area.
In NSW, how many aviation accidents, leading to a fatality do not go to a full coroners inquiry??
If some accidents do not go to a full inquiry, what are the reasons??
Why, in NSW are only some inquiries made public??
Interesting and Interesting??
In NSW, how many aviation accidents, leading to a fatality do not go to a full coroners inquiry??
If some accidents do not go to a full inquiry, what are the reasons??
Why, in NSW are only some inquiries made public??
Interesting and Interesting??
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Suggestion
Those that are able - do your own research; it's all there, free gratis and 'por nada'. Interesting statistics.
I zay nutthink. (Sounds like; oh, whats his name- I forget).
I zay nutthink. (Sounds like; oh, whats his name- I forget).
Watchdog 'ignored complaints' on dangerous flying
According to an alleged coroners report, CASA ignored neighbours multiple complaints about an allegedly low flying cowboy pilot who eventually killed himself in powerlines.
...With apologies to John Quadrio and Paul Phelan, one wonders if CASA would have ignored a YouTube video?
...With apologies to John Quadrio and Paul Phelan, one wonders if CASA would have ignored a YouTube video?
Watchdog 'ignored complaints' on dangerous flying
Andrew Heasley
March 9, 2012
Wreckage from the light plane crash that killed Robert How.
AUSTRALIA'S aviation safety watchdog failed to act against a pilot who terrified his neighbours with low-flying sweeps, before he was ultimately killed in a crash, the state Coroner has found.
Judge Jennifer Coate found the Civil Aviation Safety Authority might have averted the ''sad'' episode if it had acted on three years of complaints from neighbours whose houses were buzzed. Robert Alan How, 62, of The Gurdies near Gippsland, was killed on Christmas morning, 2008, when he flew his Cessna low over a neighbour's house and seconds later into power lines strung 25 metres above the ground. The plane burst into flames on impact in a paddock, missing the house by just 600 metres.
The Coroner's report on the inquest, which has just been made public, catalogued a litany of neighbours' complaints to CASA over three years. Yet the safety regulator never acted to suspend How's basic pilot's licence. CASA received at least eight complaints from two sets of neighbours from January 2006 to March 2008 covering Mr How's antics, including flying as low as house windows and banking so hard the wings were perpendicular to the ground. The neighbours complained to CASA variously in calls, emails, in statutory declarations, even submitting photographs.
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CASA deemed the complaints ''difficult to investigate and considered [to be] at the low level of safety risk'', the Coroner said. But there was a ''considerable'' amount of evidence that CASA could have gathered ''without expending that much effort'', Judge Coate said. CASA told the neighbours it had a shortage of flying inspectors.
CASA told the court it was overstretched and that none of the complainants had given sufficient evidence to proceed with any action against Mr How.
But the Coroner unearthed a telling internal email from January 2009 between two CASA officers, which reads: ''Looking back, it seems that we may have been able to prevent this. However, there were probably higher priorities at the time.''
CASA told the Coroner its complaints and enforcement processes and resourcing has since improved significantly.
In response to The Age's inquiries, CASA conceded the complaints ''could have been better managed'', but said it now had a larger budget to cover more front-line staff and ''has put in place far more robust systems and procedures to manage complaints''.
''Members of the public who witness flying they believe is dangerous or unsafe should report it,'' a spokesman said.
Read more: Watchdog 'ignored complaints' on dangerous flying
Andrew Heasley
March 9, 2012
Wreckage from the light plane crash that killed Robert How.
AUSTRALIA'S aviation safety watchdog failed to act against a pilot who terrified his neighbours with low-flying sweeps, before he was ultimately killed in a crash, the state Coroner has found.
Judge Jennifer Coate found the Civil Aviation Safety Authority might have averted the ''sad'' episode if it had acted on three years of complaints from neighbours whose houses were buzzed. Robert Alan How, 62, of The Gurdies near Gippsland, was killed on Christmas morning, 2008, when he flew his Cessna low over a neighbour's house and seconds later into power lines strung 25 metres above the ground. The plane burst into flames on impact in a paddock, missing the house by just 600 metres.
The Coroner's report on the inquest, which has just been made public, catalogued a litany of neighbours' complaints to CASA over three years. Yet the safety regulator never acted to suspend How's basic pilot's licence. CASA received at least eight complaints from two sets of neighbours from January 2006 to March 2008 covering Mr How's antics, including flying as low as house windows and banking so hard the wings were perpendicular to the ground. The neighbours complained to CASA variously in calls, emails, in statutory declarations, even submitting photographs.
Advertisement: Story continues below
CASA deemed the complaints ''difficult to investigate and considered [to be] at the low level of safety risk'', the Coroner said. But there was a ''considerable'' amount of evidence that CASA could have gathered ''without expending that much effort'', Judge Coate said. CASA told the neighbours it had a shortage of flying inspectors.
CASA told the court it was overstretched and that none of the complainants had given sufficient evidence to proceed with any action against Mr How.
But the Coroner unearthed a telling internal email from January 2009 between two CASA officers, which reads: ''Looking back, it seems that we may have been able to prevent this. However, there were probably higher priorities at the time.''
CASA told the Coroner its complaints and enforcement processes and resourcing has since improved significantly.
In response to The Age's inquiries, CASA conceded the complaints ''could have been better managed'', but said it now had a larger budget to cover more front-line staff and ''has put in place far more robust systems and procedures to manage complaints''.
''Members of the public who witness flying they believe is dangerous or unsafe should report it,'' a spokesman said.
Read more: Watchdog 'ignored complaints' on dangerous flying
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Robust indeed
In response to The Age's inquiries, CASA conceded the complaints ''could have been better managed'', but said it now had a larger budget to cover more front-line staff and ''has put in place far more robust systems and procedures to manage complaints''.
They don't have time to follow up leads on pesky pilots buzzing neighbors houses, too many ICAO seminars or 'Law Tug Fests' to attend and consume canopes rather than chase naughty pilots.
I wonder what Flyingfiend thinks about CASA's inadequate actions in this case? Surely Flyingfiend could provide some legal spin on this matter or is he busy attending another jolly somehwere around the globe?
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This really should make the Quadrio case even more significant, when CASA spend millions and trash a career of a guy doing the right thing, all based on a dodgy video by a criminal and pathelogical lier, yet they do nothing about a complete and utter cowboy.
These folk are needing a massive overhaul.
These folk are needing a massive overhaul.
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casa and the Coroners Courts
The Age article is at:
Watchdog 'ignored complaints' on dangerous flying
and for further reading, the Victorian Coroners Court:
http://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/...how_577308.pdf
casa again??
see casa and the coroners courts for further:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...rs-courts.html
Watchdog 'ignored complaints' on dangerous flying
and for further reading, the Victorian Coroners Court:
http://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/...how_577308.pdf
casa again??
see casa and the coroners courts for further:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...rs-courts.html
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 9th Mar 2012 at 01:09. Reason: more info
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Victorian Coroners Court
Just released is the following:
http://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/...how_577308.pdf
From the Age report and reading the Coroners report:
".... But the Coroner unearthed a telling internal email from January 2009 between two CASA officers, which reads: ''Looking back, it seems that we may have been able to prevent this. However, there were probably higher priorities at the time.''
CASA told the Coroner its complaints and enforcement processes and resourcing has since improved significantly. ...."
Question is - Did casa do their work properly???
http://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/...how_577308.pdf
From the Age report and reading the Coroners report:
".... But the Coroner unearthed a telling internal email from January 2009 between two CASA officers, which reads: ''Looking back, it seems that we may have been able to prevent this. However, there were probably higher priorities at the time.''
CASA told the Coroner its complaints and enforcement processes and resourcing has since improved significantly. ...."
Question is - Did casa do their work properly???
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 9th Mar 2012 at 01:27.
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But the Coroner unearthed a telling internal email from January 2009 between two CASA officers, which reads: ''Looking back, it seems that we may have been able to prevent this. However, there were probably higher priorities at the time.''
What a disgrace.
I previously (many years ago) reported an operator to CASA whose pilots were involved in a dangerous d*** swinging contest amongst themselves which was breaking the rules and placing their passengers at risk.
When I reported it a second time, I was told it had been dealt with and I must be mistaken, even though the nearest CASA office was over 1000km away and they hadn't so much as left the office.
The following week, for two days IN A ROW, I was ramp checked by said FOI - which I can only assume was revenge for rocking the boat.
Tried to pin me for not carrying life jackets, until I retrieved the CAOs from the office and explained to him the legislation. Regretably, I didn't go so far as to suggest he should be familiar with rules he is supposed to enforce.
Unfortunately CASA is made up of a large contingent of experienced, genuine and nice people who do the right thing. It's the 10% of idiots that ruin it for everyone.
I previously (many years ago) reported an operator to CASA whose pilots were involved in a dangerous d*** swinging contest amongst themselves which was breaking the rules and placing their passengers at risk.
When I reported it a second time, I was told it had been dealt with and I must be mistaken, even though the nearest CASA office was over 1000km away and they hadn't so much as left the office.
The following week, for two days IN A ROW, I was ramp checked by said FOI - which I can only assume was revenge for rocking the boat.
Tried to pin me for not carrying life jackets, until I retrieved the CAOs from the office and explained to him the legislation. Regretably, I didn't go so far as to suggest he should be familiar with rules he is supposed to enforce.
Unfortunately CASA is made up of a large contingent of experienced, genuine and nice people who do the right thing. It's the 10% of idiots that ruin it for everyone.
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This really should make the Quadrio case even more significant, when CASA spend millions and trash a career of a guy doing the right thing, all based on a dodgy video by a criminal and pathelogical lier, yet they do nothing about a complete and utter cowboy.
When he crashed he was supposedly "under investigation." I wonder how far that investigation had actually progressed.
I wonder if they also looked at the owner maintenance that was taking place on his aircraft.
Taking the licence off this chap probably wouldn't have mattered though; I suspect he would have kept flying.
For those that talk about peer-pressure and dobbing people in - it didn't matter for this guy either. He had been kicked out of most of his local flying fields, but just kept finding new ones. He once struggled to land in a cross-wind and struggled, then re-positioned for the cross strip. Taxiied past the club-house with his rudder chock in place - blamed his wife for not removing it even though she wasn't even in the aircraft.
You just can't help some people no matter what you do!!! Any money spent on this chap was a waste of my taxes.
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missing the house by just 600 metres.
Oakape is right, there were no passengers so they didn't care.
There are some differences between this and the Cairns incident that Sunfish talks about, especially the fare paying passengers. Not that I am condoning CASA's action with John Q.
Well BH this dudes antics (before his demise) was definitely in contradiction to CAR 157 for starters,
!
(represents unhappy neighbour)
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 157 Low flying
Definitely meets all the criterior for a Darwin Award nomination!
BH is that one better?
including flying as low as house windows
(represents unhappy neighbour)CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 157 Low flying
Definitely meets all the criterior for a Darwin Award nomination!
BH is that one better?
Last edited by Sarcs; 9th Mar 2012 at 07:32. Reason: Justifying emoticon
sounds familiar...
I believe that there had been some compliants about the guy doing the Wilga jollies at Straddy.
After a tragic accident killing 4 kids, I guess CASA's interest would now be..how do we keep our arse out of the media fire and avoid any bad PR.?
As for the safety of the fare paying passenger, well that's an advertising jingle, not of major interest or importance really.
CASA s punitive approach to "safety" cant take any action against a pilot who's no longer with us.
But CASA does go reactive/punitive/toxic for an operator who has had the misfortune of an accident in their operation, thru no fault of their own.. eg Whyalla Air, a classic example
And I'll give you a definition of "robust" a la CASA.
An "investigation" into an incident in FNQ which may have led to a criminal conviction....consisted of the "investigator" writing up a version of events based on the AWIs statements (false)...AND THATS IT.!! ffs!
No matter... they wanted A 'bust'. But alas...it all went tits up, excuse the pun.
Oh dear! .Another $300,000 of taxpayers hard earned bites the dust.
Well beyond time for a judicial inquiry into the whole sh*tshow.
After a tragic accident killing 4 kids, I guess CASA's interest would now be..how do we keep our arse out of the media fire and avoid any bad PR.?
As for the safety of the fare paying passenger, well that's an advertising jingle, not of major interest or importance really.
CASA s punitive approach to "safety" cant take any action against a pilot who's no longer with us.
But CASA does go reactive/punitive/toxic for an operator who has had the misfortune of an accident in their operation, thru no fault of their own.. eg Whyalla Air, a classic example
And I'll give you a definition of "robust" a la CASA.
An "investigation" into an incident in FNQ which may have led to a criminal conviction....consisted of the "investigator" writing up a version of events based on the AWIs statements (false)...AND THATS IT.!! ffs!
No matter... they wanted A 'bust'. But alas...it all went tits up, excuse the pun.
Oh dear! .Another $300,000 of taxpayers hard earned bites the dust.
Well beyond time for a judicial inquiry into the whole sh*tshow.
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So why the headbutting a wall SARCS?
Most are aware of the Low Flying Regulation, some choose to ignore it and then die.
I would imagine you are a pilot of the real world and would be aware of GA operations that "bend" the rules to stay afloat. Scud running down the road to find the strip is not much different to the accident sequence here.
Agree with the Darwin Award. You should go online to the site and nominate him, although he may have already procreated.
As an aside, I do work for a bloke who has his helipad in semirural area, and two neighbours make all sorts of claims of low flying, untrue by the way, so I treat unsubstantiated claims of such with some scepticism. I am not surprised that CASA wanted photographic/video evidence prior to proceeding - or else Kharon would have started another eloquent thread about Nazi, pony pooh collecting, CASA harrassing an innocent pilot.
BH
Most are aware of the Low Flying Regulation, some choose to ignore it and then die.
I would imagine you are a pilot of the real world and would be aware of GA operations that "bend" the rules to stay afloat. Scud running down the road to find the strip is not much different to the accident sequence here.
Agree with the Darwin Award. You should go online to the site and nominate him, although he may have already procreated.
As an aside, I do work for a bloke who has his helipad in semirural area, and two neighbours make all sorts of claims of low flying, untrue by the way, so I treat unsubstantiated claims of such with some scepticism. I am not surprised that CASA wanted photographic/video evidence prior to proceeding - or else Kharon would have started another eloquent thread about Nazi, pony pooh collecting, CASA harrassing an innocent pilot.
BH
Last edited by blackhand; 9th Mar 2012 at 07:06. Reason: had beers
----- a cleaver lawyer
I am a bit on CASA's side one this one, they would need a cast of thousands to respond to every ratbag complaint from Joe Public, particularly when Joe is a well known local axe grinder.
Inevitably, or as we say in the trade, Murphy's Law, guarantees that, amongst the thousands of spurious complaints, there will the occassional real one, and aren't we all, especially Coroner's Courts, possessed of 20/20 hindsight.
Tootle pip!!