Lake Eyre CTAF
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Lake Eyre CTAF
post deleted. I was going to share my experience of the Lake Eyre CTAF imbroglio, but I won't now lest I be prosecuted.
Last edited by Sunfish; 10th Nov 2011 at 21:27.
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Oops
Go directly to goal, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Strict liability offence, reckless and negligent therefore not a fit and proper etc. etc.
Poor ol' Sunny.
Strict liability offence, reckless and negligent therefore not a fit and proper etc. etc.
Poor ol' Sunny.
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Hey Sunfish, I didn’t catch your original post but I personally think that you should have the right to voice your experience and shouldn’t be guarded at the risk of being prosecuted. This topic hasn’t been raised on here previously to my knowledge, yet is a pretty serious safety concern. There has been some exposure of the topic in one of the recent Flight Safety magazines but there are still aircraft every week on the wrong frequency in what is a very busy area at the moment, resulting in numerous “near miss” situations. It’s not only light GA and PVT aircraft that have been caught out, but also the RFDS PC12s, Fokker 50s, media helicopters/aircraft and even Mr Dick Smith!
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For those of you playing at home and have no idea what we’re on about: the CTAF for YWMC and YMRE is stated as 126.7 in the ERSA although there is a NOTAM (admittedly not the easiest to find if you’re not looking for it) issued that provides co-ordinates for corners of a boundary that has a discreet area broadcast frequency for when Lake Eyre is in flood. This area covers Lake Eyre, YWMC and YMRE and the frequency is 127.8.
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CASA has been contacted on numerous occasions about the fact that the change has not been made clear enough and that the ERSA needs to reflect the new frequency. Their response does lend itself towards agreement that it is a safety concern and provides increased risk of collision but insist that the change can’t be printed in the ERSA, as 127.8 is not a frequency reserved for CTAFs. They do provide the advice that anyone that encounters an incident due to the incorrect frequency being monitored or broadcast on, is urged to submit an official incident report. My understanding is that an influx of reports would then be presented to Airservices as proof of the concern and some sort of solution would be decided upon and implemented. I guess some sort of fatal accident may provide the same result.
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Until then, keep your eyes open and monitor both if you can!
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For those of you playing at home and have no idea what we’re on about: the CTAF for YWMC and YMRE is stated as 126.7 in the ERSA although there is a NOTAM (admittedly not the easiest to find if you’re not looking for it) issued that provides co-ordinates for corners of a boundary that has a discreet area broadcast frequency for when Lake Eyre is in flood. This area covers Lake Eyre, YWMC and YMRE and the frequency is 127.8.
*
CASA has been contacted on numerous occasions about the fact that the change has not been made clear enough and that the ERSA needs to reflect the new frequency. Their response does lend itself towards agreement that it is a safety concern and provides increased risk of collision but insist that the change can’t be printed in the ERSA, as 127.8 is not a frequency reserved for CTAFs. They do provide the advice that anyone that encounters an incident due to the incorrect frequency being monitored or broadcast on, is urged to submit an official incident report. My understanding is that an influx of reports would then be presented to Airservices as proof of the concern and some sort of solution would be decided upon and implemented. I guess some sort of fatal accident may provide the same result.
*
Until then, keep your eyes open and monitor both if you can!
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CASA's response in the latest FSA mag to several letters on the subject seems to be more of a justification for the current state of play with a reminder of the protocol and strict 'legal' nature of NOTAM format - hardly a recognition of "Maybe this could be done better..."
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Apologies Sunfish.
Sincere, perhaps I was a little too light hearted in a heavy handed sort of way. But, the chance to elaborate on the culture of fear, generated in GA at the moment was too tempting.
This should be an 'open topic', mistakes made, lessons learned and a reasonable excuse about the sad state of the ERSA/NOTAM system and perhaps, some guidance from the CASA about 'keeping us all safe' would not go amiss.
What concerns me the most is that the post was withdrawn for fear of prosecution (not much chance for you), but; a junior charter pilot working for a 'targeted' operator would be having kittens if a similar post was read. Why? He had done it as well.
This now becomes a clearly defined safety issue.
The pilot should (and in my opinion be obliged by law) to report the incident to his chief pilot. In the normal course the CP would (rightly) “chip” the pilot for stuffing up the procedure and then issue a company brief to the rest of the girls and boys about the procedures at Marree. Job done, safety issue resolved. Kid learned a lesson to boot.
This does not happen, the kids are so scared of 'getting into trouble' they dissemble or worse shut up.
Why ? – the bogey man watcheth, and he watches exceeding fine. This small incident will form a part of a safety based case against a targeted Operator, Chief Pilot and the kid. If the authority decides it is meat to do so.
Sad; sad and shameful. Only an open just culture helps safety.
I blame the booze bus – the Friday night BBQ and beers/ discussion/ peer group tutoring all gone now.
Sunfish, like your style, eloquence and above all, your patent honesty.
Heigh ho off to work I go. Stay 'legally' safe. Hit anything or anyone you like - just do it legally.
Selah.
This should be an 'open topic', mistakes made, lessons learned and a reasonable excuse about the sad state of the ERSA/NOTAM system and perhaps, some guidance from the CASA about 'keeping us all safe' would not go amiss.
What concerns me the most is that the post was withdrawn for fear of prosecution (not much chance for you), but; a junior charter pilot working for a 'targeted' operator would be having kittens if a similar post was read. Why? He had done it as well.
This now becomes a clearly defined safety issue.
The pilot should (and in my opinion be obliged by law) to report the incident to his chief pilot. In the normal course the CP would (rightly) “chip” the pilot for stuffing up the procedure and then issue a company brief to the rest of the girls and boys about the procedures at Marree. Job done, safety issue resolved. Kid learned a lesson to boot.
This does not happen, the kids are so scared of 'getting into trouble' they dissemble or worse shut up.
Why ? – the bogey man watcheth, and he watches exceeding fine. This small incident will form a part of a safety based case against a targeted Operator, Chief Pilot and the kid. If the authority decides it is meat to do so.
Sad; sad and shameful. Only an open just culture helps safety.
I blame the booze bus – the Friday night BBQ and beers/ discussion/ peer group tutoring all gone now.
Sunfish, like your style, eloquence and above all, your patent honesty.
Heigh ho off to work I go. Stay 'legally' safe. Hit anything or anyone you like - just do it legally.
Selah.
I guess some sort of fatal accident may provide the same result.
DF.
The issue with the Lake Eyre NOTAM is that I, and others, picked it as: "in addition to" where it really was: "Instead of".
There was a time when in my previous life I would have handed out maps of the area with the frequencies marked on them to everyone who called in to see me. Even now if someone rings me to enquire about fuel (yes, 3 years later & I'm still getting calls) I will check with the caller to make sure they are aware of the NOTAM. Most of them aren't.
DF.
What am I missing?
I flew over Lake Eyre lowish level en route from AYE to BHI. I read the NOTAMS. I called on 127.8, NE of the Lake, and gave a pretty routine call, almost the same as entering any CTAF - rego, position, alt and where I was going. Is it that hard?
I flew over Lake Eyre lowish level en route from AYE to BHI. I read the NOTAMS. I called on 127.8, NE of the Lake, and gave a pretty routine call, almost the same as entering any CTAF - rego, position, alt and where I was going. Is it that hard?
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Stallie, you are missing nothing. 
Its the nongs who believe NOTAMS are for wooses that are causing the problems.
Obviously you read further than than just the specific NOTAMS and took in the FIR ones as well, unlike some people who should know better. 
Its the nongs who believe NOTAMS are for wooses that are causing the problems.
Obviously you read further than than just the specific NOTAMS and took in the FIR ones as well, unlike some people who should know better.
While we are on the subject, last time I was up there, the hardest thing I found was not finding the NOTAM but locating all the local features the charter boys and girls use for positions in their calls, although 90% are on the map, I'm fairly sure a few aren't. Is there a map somewhere (or can someone draw one up) of where most of the locals make their calls.
It got to the point where I asked one guy "I'm here. Is this anywhere near you?"
It got to the point where I asked one guy "I'm here. Is this anywhere near you?"
Mcgrath50, unfortunately you'll find a lot of points that the scenic flights use won't be on your maps but they'll be used by the pilots. Personally i've flown a LOT of scenic flights in the northern part of Australia and if I know who i'm talking to i'll use the known points irrespective of whether they are on a Map or not cause we know them well, but if someone is in the area that is obviously not from a local company i'll be sure to use stuff that they will know, ala, points on their WACs or Distance and Bearing!!
Knowing the quality of such people as Pilotette i'm sure they'll do the same down there, and if in doubt, just ask, they'll be sure to give you something more appropriate!!
Its hard to draw them as each company can sometimes use their own, just easier to ask on the right frequency if in doubt.
Knowing the quality of such people as Pilotette i'm sure they'll do the same down there, and if in doubt, just ask, they'll be sure to give you something more appropriate!!
Its hard to draw them as each company can sometimes use their own, just easier to ask on the right frequency if in doubt.
One of Pilotettes guys did point out a few places when we stopped for fuel (went straight past the island with the pelicans ). It did seem like there was a system everyone was using, everything worked out fine, the scenic guys were great working around us. I always feel slightly unprepared though not knowing the inside knowledge 
). It did seem like there was a system everyone was using, everything worked out fine, the scenic guys were great working around us. I always feel slightly unprepared though not knowing the inside knowledge
Thread Starter
Plovett, I read the NOTAM. I always read my NOTAMS. The issue is that the way the Lake Eyre NOTAM reads it is easy to mistake the new frequency as in addition to the Marree and William Creek frequencies rather than instead of the discrete Marree and William creek frequencies. The English is convoluted.
Use 127.8 in the region? Check.
Use 127.8 if overflying Marree? Check.
Use 127.8 for landing calls?
- You have to infer that last bit from the reference to the AIP - this is one case when CASA style English might get somebody killed.
From NAIPS:
Use 127.8 in the region? Check.
Use 127.8 if overflying Marree? Check.
Use 127.8 for landing calls?
- You have to infer that last bit from the reference to the AIP - this is one case when CASA style English might get somebody killed.
From NAIPS:
TEMPO DISCRETE AREA BCST FREQ 127.8 ESTABLISHED IN LAKE EYRE REGION
WI THE BOUNDRIES OF STRAIGHT LINES JOINING S27 30.0 E136 00.0 TO
S27 30.0 E139 00.0 TO S30 00.0 E139 00.0 TO S30 00.0 E136 00.0 TO S27
30.0 E136 00.0
TO ASSIST IN SEPERATION FM OTHER ACFT PILOTS ENTERING AND OPR WI THE
DESIGNATED AIRSPACE MUST BCST THE FOLLOWING ON THE BCST FREQ;
1.ACFT CALLSIGN
2.ACFT PSN
3.ACFT LVL
4.PILOTS INTENTIONS IN RELATION TO FLIGHT
PILOTS OPR AT AD WI THE DESIGNATED AIRSPACE MUST MAKE BCST AS
APPLICABLE TO NON TOWERED AD IN CLASS G AIRSPACE AS SPECIFIED IN AIP
ON DISCRETE AREA BCST FREQ. THE DISCRETE BCST AREA INCLUDES LAKE EYRE
NORTH, LAKE EYRE SOUTH, MAREE (YMRE) AND WILLIAM CREEK (YWMC)
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL
WI THE BOUNDRIES OF STRAIGHT LINES JOINING S27 30.0 E136 00.0 TO
S27 30.0 E139 00.0 TO S30 00.0 E139 00.0 TO S30 00.0 E136 00.0 TO S27
30.0 E136 00.0
TO ASSIST IN SEPERATION FM OTHER ACFT PILOTS ENTERING AND OPR WI THE
DESIGNATED AIRSPACE MUST BCST THE FOLLOWING ON THE BCST FREQ;
1.ACFT CALLSIGN
2.ACFT PSN
3.ACFT LVL
4.PILOTS INTENTIONS IN RELATION TO FLIGHT
PILOTS OPR AT AD WI THE DESIGNATED AIRSPACE MUST MAKE BCST AS
APPLICABLE TO NON TOWERED AD IN CLASS G AIRSPACE AS SPECIFIED IN AIP
ON DISCRETE AREA BCST FREQ. THE DISCRETE BCST AREA INCLUDES LAKE EYRE
NORTH, LAKE EYRE SOUTH, MAREE (YMRE) AND WILLIAM CREEK (YWMC)
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL
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My easy non-standard solution is to press the mic 1 and 2 button and broadcast on both at the same time, that way you'll catch those other pilots doing the right thing and those doing the wrong thing. Simple yet effective ! . Very handy for CTAFs that have recently changed frequency too as there's a 99% chance that someone will screw up.
. Very handy for CTAFs that have recently changed frequency too as there's a 99% chance that someone will screw up.
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Sunnie, wasn't having a go at you but rather at those who don't bother to get any NOTAMS (or do any flight planning, or have any emergency gear etc.). There were many that seem to think flight planning is all about the GPS. Yes, the FIR NOTAM is not clear and could be better presented.
I was there in 2009 and had some of the closest calls I would ever care to have and that was when the frequency was 126.7. They only implemented the discrete frequency once the season was nearly over that year.
I was there in 2009 and had some of the closest calls I would ever care to have and that was when the frequency was 126.7. They only implemented the discrete frequency once the season was nearly over that year.
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Makes it hard when people switch early coming down from Birdsville. Or don't change at all. Or just don't turn on their radio. We always operate to a sched out there on hf, with one VHF on 127.8 the other 126.7. It's funny how many times you are flicking between the two. And then theres the unidentified traffic on tcas which just "pops" up. It really is a shambles to say the least. But at least the boys and girls at wrightsair are friendly enough and vigilant enough to point out some operators errors in their area (well it is their backyard so their area will suffice).
I reckon wmc and the lake need a constant separate frequency year in year out, published in the ersa...
Have counted 35 aircraft between William Ck and Birdsville on several occasions...
I reckon wmc and the lake need a constant separate frequency year in year out, published in the ersa...
Have counted 35 aircraft between William Ck and Birdsville on several occasions...
Go directly to goal, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
kahlalijie-bran, or whatever your nom de guerre is these days -
it looks like you've not played 'MONOTONY' for a while shags.
it looks like another briefing might be the go . . .. aided by the
sumptuously potent
Kilkenny in the front office at 338 Oxford Street.
it looks like I cannot make a useful contibution about
Lake Eyre.
but then again, it looks like nobody can dispute the good advice of PL
- read the relevant reams .. . and digest.
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Whoah- WTF??.
Fantome was it. Hobart, well at least that explains it, a bit.
Was it you who declared very recently that the landing lights at William Creek were taken out by a rogue Metro 2, with 18 pax, skid marks, sparks and absolutely no council support for replacement lights. Seems to me this rings a bell, but perhaps not. But it's the only real safety 'issue' out there this year.
FYI - Google indicates 338 Oxford St, the nearest point to Bond St underground station, unless you mean the Sunglasses hut ??.
Check diary, no PL
Check "fav" drinks list: Irish ale described as a known toxin. (definitely not a Cab Sav).
Yours, diverted, mildly amused but slightly puzzled - K.
Was it you who declared very recently that the landing lights at William Creek were taken out by a rogue Metro 2, with 18 pax, skid marks, sparks and absolutely no council support for replacement lights. Seems to me this rings a bell, but perhaps not. But it's the only real safety 'issue' out there this year.
FYI - Google indicates 338 Oxford St, the nearest point to Bond St underground station, unless you mean the Sunglasses hut ??.
Check diary, no PL
Check "fav" drinks list: Irish ale described as a known toxin. (definitely not a Cab Sav).
Yours, diverted, mildly amused but slightly puzzled - K.
Last edited by Kharon; 13th Nov 2011 at 14:14. Reason: typo