Warning - That Kool Video = Loss Of Licence.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The video seems to suggest the pilot is operating well north of Learmonth. If this is the case, then IFR flights on descent shouldn't be an issue.
(and I have been there...nice place too 
) or any number of other IFR arrivals. So you can't just consider Learmonth as the only threat.
Whether or not there is IFR traffic is around is irrelevant, rightly or wrongly the rules say above 3,000ft you need 1,000ft vertical clearance and 1,500m horizontal. By the looks of this video, he is breaking that. If he is, I dont think we can excuse that because it's fun.
VMC criteria have been made for a reason. It wouldn't be the first time someone was flying close to clouds, got distracted, head down (or turned around to wave at the camera), flew into cloud and ended up disorientated. The end result? A crash.
If you think the buffer is to big, work to have it changed. Personally I think the speed limits on the hume highway are way to low, but that wouldn't be a good excuse to give to the cops when caught speeding!
VMC criteria have been made for a reason. It wouldn't be the first time someone was flying close to clouds, got distracted, head down (or turned around to wave at the camera), flew into cloud and ended up disorientated. The end result? A crash.
If you think the buffer is to big, work to have it changed. Personally I think the speed limits on the hume highway are way to low, but that wouldn't be a good excuse to give to the cops when caught speeding!
Seasonally Adjusted
To suggest that IFR flights won't be arriving into Exmouth from a certain direction is utterly ridiculous
I was simply suggesting that, due to Learmonth's (and Exmouths) location at the NW corner of WA, there wouldn't be much in the way of IFR traffic arriving from the north or west.
The exceptions would be; the choppers servicing the gas platforms, the rare international flight using YPLM as an alternate, and the RAAF Orions returning from maritime patrols.
Jaba....not too many RFDS King Airs over this side of the country anymore.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So there we have it.
Cloud at that location for less than 10% of the time. Number of flights diverted to anywhere near there, inbound from the north west roughly 0.00001%.
Therefore the chance of this guy being anywhere near an IFR aircraft on any given day is 0.000001%
Furthermore, if you are an IFR pilot that voluntarily flies through that little bit of cloud when the rest of the sky is empty you deserve to get hit.
Cloud at that location for less than 10% of the time. Number of flights diverted to anywhere near there, inbound from the north west roughly 0.00001%.
Therefore the chance of this guy being anywhere near an IFR aircraft on any given day is 0.000001%
Furthermore, if you are an IFR pilot that voluntarily flies through that little bit of cloud when the rest of the sky is empty you deserve to get hit.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Similar odds/chances of winning the lotto, but people still buy tickets.....
How often do we hear a story of disdain, finished with, "what are the odds of that" It is a simple matter that when the odds of something are miniscule, and the situation is ambient to it becoming more possible, murhpys law will step in and finish the job.
And as for an IFR pilot avoiding that cloud? Hmm if i was based there in a lightie, i might be tempted to go and make use of that piece of cloud, to practice something i rarely get to do.
How often do we hear a story of disdain, finished with, "what are the odds of that" It is a simple matter that when the odds of something are miniscule, and the situation is ambient to it becoming more possible, murhpys law will step in and finish the job.
And as for an IFR pilot avoiding that cloud? Hmm if i was based there in a lightie, i might be tempted to go and make use of that piece of cloud, to practice something i rarely get to do.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well he was minding his own business a million miles away. Shame a few holier than thou dont do a bit more of it. I'd wager that there is not one poster on here that hasn't bent a rule or two ever ever ever in their lifetime.
Get real.
Get real.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
waren
If you have ever flown anything...you have broken some rules. If you have a prang, its just which rule that you broke. That is not the point.
Deliberate and blatent rule breaking as distinct from your "bending" and then posting it on youtube and using that material on your aviation business website is not setting a good example.
JMAC himself probably bends or breaks one or two every time he gets in his YAK. But I bet he does not do it in such a manner that is likely to be of a svere nature nor posts it up on CASA's website for all to see.
There is a long way between a bit of fun and stupidity....just don't leap across that ditch.
If you have ever flown anything...you have broken some rules. If you have a prang, its just which rule that you broke. That is not the point.
Deliberate and blatent rule breaking as distinct from your "bending" and then posting it on youtube and using that material on your aviation business website is not setting a good example.
JMAC himself probably bends or breaks one or two every time he gets in his YAK. But I bet he does not do it in such a manner that is likely to be of a svere nature nor posts it up on CASA's website for all to see.
There is a long way between a bit of fun and stupidity....just don't leap across that ditch.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And all he'll get is a please explain letter and/or a stern talking to by the HGFA ops manager at most and all will be forgotten.
It's not like this guy is going to actually lose his license over this or be fined or thrown in jail, is it?
A little perspective, people...
It's not like this guy is going to actually lose his license over this or be fined or thrown in jail, is it?
A little perspective, people...
If you want to go cloud bashing its pretty easy to do it right... get an IFR clearance for airwork from 20-40NM north of Location XXX from the XXX Radial to the XXX Radial....
That way when anyone is coming in, you get a heads up, they get a heads up, and together you can sort out some deconfliction....
Waren9/Aussie Bob - so by your reasoning when/where is it not appropriate?? If it is okay at Exmouth, is it okay further south? Next thing someone will be doing it at Jurien Bay, then Kalbarri, then Geraldton, then...
Here is a case study of where "bending the rules" gets you...
Industry CRM Developers - Situational Awareness Management Course Outline
That way when anyone is coming in, you get a heads up, they get a heads up, and together you can sort out some deconfliction....
Waren9/Aussie Bob - so by your reasoning when/where is it not appropriate?? If it is okay at Exmouth, is it okay further south? Next thing someone will be doing it at Jurien Bay, then Kalbarri, then Geraldton, then...
Here is a case study of where "bending the rules" gets you...
Industry CRM Developers - Situational Awareness Management Course Outline
Why should an ifr flight avoid enroute cloud that won't affect them getting visual, especcially when they dont know that there is a knobber in a microlight smashing around the edges?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Risk perception and the concept of context clearly varies amongst folks. Given the context of the behaviour and its location and its frequency, I dont personally consider it as overly risky. I certainly wouldn't dob anyone for it.
Anything coming in from the NW would hardly describe that as
Anything coming in from the NW would hardly describe that as
enroute cloud
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
isnt everything about flight about risk management?
what are the odds of an engine failure? heart attack? stroke? birdstrike?, ****e, walk into the wrong pub at the wrong time....
if you want to eliminate all risk in your life, shoot yourself now..
just dont forget which one is which, sadly almost all of todays modern society has labeled everything in the stupid category. Flying after a few beers? stupid! enjoying a scenic flight around the clouds a million miles from anywhere? ...
Therefore the chance of this guy being anywhere near an IFR aircraft on any given day is 0.000001%
if you want to eliminate all risk in your life, shoot yourself now..
There is a long way between a bit of fun and stupidity...
Waren9/Aussie Bob - so by your reasoning when/where is it not appropriate?
The behaviour I see as inappropriate is you guys blowing the whole thing out of all proportion, like he has commited a major sin. Certainly I don't think dobbing him hin was appropriate either, a phone call or email direct to him would be more appropriate but I forgot, some folk just like to play policeman.
Guess I will head back to the aero club bar and tell the newbies the seriousness of posting flying vids on Youtube ...
Ultralights - yep, all about risk management. But IMHO disregarding rules that have often previously been written in blood is like lining up a couple of the holes in the cheese all by yourself..
Soooooo Waren9 - apparently it is not appropriate but its not a big deal? As a hypothetical question if it is not "overly risky" at Exmouth where/when does it become overly risky?.... And when does the guy with 50Hrs get the experience/knowledge as to when and where to decide to do it after seeing a CFI set the example? Maybe we should have designated "low risk zones" where you can make up the rules yourself... Call it class Z....
Personally I don't give 2 beeps about this guy because I don't think that I am likely to run into him. I think the point that a number of people are trying to make is its a real slippery slope when you start bending/disregarding the rules, especially if you are in a position of leadership...
Soooooo Waren9 - apparently it is not appropriate but its not a big deal? As a hypothetical question if it is not "overly risky" at Exmouth where/when does it become overly risky?.... And when does the guy with 50Hrs get the experience/knowledge as to when and where to decide to do it after seeing a CFI set the example? Maybe we should have designated "low risk zones" where you can make up the rules yourself... Call it class Z....
Personally I don't give 2 beeps about this guy because I don't think that I am likely to run into him. I think the point that a number of people are trying to make is its a real slippery slope when you start bending/disregarding the rules, especially if you are in a position of leadership...
I am quite jealous of this fella, as he still seems to be able enjoy aviation. Looks like he is having a blast. If you can't do that in the middle of b@mfeck Western Australia there is little chance of anybody having fun anymore.
I really don't mind being away from Australian aviation anymore. Suggestions that you should get an IFR clearance to cloud bash for a few minutes just shows how the Australian "common dog f@ck" attitude has all but disappeared.
Move on people, there is nothing to see here. Except of course someone enjoying the best bits of being able to fly an aeroplane.
The Don
I really don't mind being away from Australian aviation anymore. Suggestions that you should get an IFR clearance to cloud bash for a few minutes just shows how the Australian "common dog f@ck" attitude has all but disappeared.
Move on people, there is nothing to see here. Except of course someone enjoying the best bits of being able to fly an aeroplane.
The Don
Last edited by donpizmeov; 18th Oct 2011 at 10:09. Reason: can't spell
Some of you guys need to take a chill pill.
The only thing he "may" have done wrong was not making any RT calls to make sure no IFR A/C came along……..
1000' and 1500m from cloud???? yeah so what???? Who here hasn't run their wingtip through the odd cloud or 3 in their career???? Cloud surfing can be fun if done appropriately and with due diligence in the right place. I mean he wasn't doing this over Melbourne was he!!
Surely a little common sense can sometimes be used………
I guess you guys never speed too???? or tell fibs????
Perfect world then
The only thing he "may" have done wrong was not making any RT calls to make sure no IFR A/C came along……..
1000' and 1500m from cloud???? yeah so what???? Who here hasn't run their wingtip through the odd cloud or 3 in their career???? Cloud surfing can be fun if done appropriately and with due diligence in the right place. I mean he wasn't doing this over Melbourne was he!!
Surely a little common sense can sometimes be used………
I guess you guys never speed too???? or tell fibs????
Perfect world then
What get's me is the amount of people on here (presumably professional pilots) who don't think breaking rules "is a big thing".
Worries me greatly,
.
I enjoy my flying and I have fun, but I do it within the rules and regulations set out by the regulator, whether you like them or not.
morno
Worries me greatly,
.I enjoy my flying and I have fun, but I do it within the rules and regulations set out by the regulator, whether you like them or not.
morno
Nitpicker, are you drunk?
Are you saying someone deliberately breaking the law in this case is taking "due diligence"?
Is it taking "due diligence" if you get drunk and then just drive the quiet backstreets home because you are less likely to hit someone? How is this different?
Read j3pipercub's earlier quote:
Those rules aren't there to make your flying less "fun", they are there to protect human life based on experience - AND THEY ARE NOT OPTIONAL.
Cloud surfing can be fun if done appropriately and with due diligence in the right place.
Is it taking "due diligence" if you get drunk and then just drive the quiet backstreets home because you are less likely to hit someone? How is this different?
Read j3pipercub's earlier quote:
Son, the rules are written in the blood of those who have gone before you.
"Is no one hearing that aircraft use the northern track on a daily basis? Yes... Middle of nowhere... Next to one of the largest strips in WA, with several RPT flights a day, with a southerly blowing, at the start of the arch for the 18 VOR."
Aircraft fly here on a daily basis? really? I think you may be in the wrong profession Ecovictim. Do you get this scared of the pelicans that fly around there too? They also will ruin ya day if you hit one. These videos were made in day CAVOK. He is not scud running. Even when IFR you need to look out the window to see and avoid, or did you miss this part of your training? To suggest he is doing this in congested airspace is one of the greatest stretches of imagination I have ever heard.
Perhaps its a generation thing. When I went to school taking peanut butter sandwiches to school was not considered dangerous. We were of the belief that if you were allergic to them you would not eat them. We were encouraged to think for ourselves. Now I see there is a law saying that this is also dangerous. And now, the prodigy of the nanny state that is modern Australia, are fearful and outraged that some motorised hang-glider can fly close to a cloud.
Its a hang glider. If he was doing beat ups or cloud bashing whilst on a charter or RPT with Pax on board I too would be asking that his licence be examined. But he is solo, in a hang glider, with a motor.
If he is flying this thing IFR (really) without a radio on crappy IFR days, then I take it all back Eco. But if he is doing that, I don't think he will be a problem for very long.
Its a big sky mate, keep ya eyes out as you never know whats out there. Tcas doesn't see half of whats happening.
If your not enjoying your job ECO you are doing something wrong.
The Don
Aircraft fly here on a daily basis? really? I think you may be in the wrong profession Ecovictim. Do you get this scared of the pelicans that fly around there too? They also will ruin ya day if you hit one. These videos were made in day CAVOK. He is not scud running. Even when IFR you need to look out the window to see and avoid, or did you miss this part of your training? To suggest he is doing this in congested airspace is one of the greatest stretches of imagination I have ever heard.
Perhaps its a generation thing. When I went to school taking peanut butter sandwiches to school was not considered dangerous. We were of the belief that if you were allergic to them you would not eat them. We were encouraged to think for ourselves. Now I see there is a law saying that this is also dangerous. And now, the prodigy of the nanny state that is modern Australia, are fearful and outraged that some motorised hang-glider can fly close to a cloud.
Its a hang glider. If he was doing beat ups or cloud bashing whilst on a charter or RPT with Pax on board I too would be asking that his licence be examined. But he is solo, in a hang glider, with a motor.
If he is flying this thing IFR (really) without a radio on crappy IFR days, then I take it all back Eco. But if he is doing that, I don't think he will be a problem for very long.
Its a big sky mate, keep ya eyes out as you never know whats out there. Tcas doesn't see half of whats happening.
If your not enjoying your job ECO you are doing something wrong.
The Don