Outrageous Charge
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Could you not insist for a GST reciept?? That'd mean putting it through the books and paying their own GST, probably too hard for them and you might get a reduced rate for cash.
Anyway, taking the charges to the media, especially for a council owned/operatored, would hopefully bring some unwanted attention to the cashie being undertaken by contractors....
Anyway, taking the charges to the media, especially for a council owned/operatored, would hopefully bring some unwanted attention to the cashie being undertaken by contractors....
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Ovation: "The refuel man at Geraldton left a bad taste in my mouth". Just how far do you have to go to get fuel at Geraldton? I think I'll stick to YMEK.
Traffic Is Er Was: Your post puts out more maybes than a virgin on prom night. When you have you situational awareness problem sorted out and you venture further north than Southport, you will find things are not as simple as you seem to think they are. I suggest you phone, say, 10 communities, and log the man-hours it takes just to speak to people who might know the answer to whatever airport question you might have. Remember you have the luxury of sitting at home where the phone works and have days or weeks before your big adventure north. Many of us have more to do than to ring every airport manager to check whether the rules have changed since the previous 30 visits. Forgive me if I'm wrong but you sound like Daddy's given you lots of money to learn to fly and you work for the government so you are experienced at being stuffed around and perhaps even enjoy it.
If we look at all the points you and others raised then transposed them to road transport there would be a riot. Imagine I wanted to visit my daughter who's teaching at Beenleigh school. All the roads to Beenleigh are locked so I phone ahead to make sure they will unlock them at night and on holidays. I find they do but I have to pay $50 to unlock them and then another $50 so I can use them and then another $50 so I can leave at the end of my visit. I can however delay my departure till Monday during working hours and save $50. The chain man helpfully tells me that driving on his bit of road is free if I have a truck delivering books to the school but not if I'm just visiting either in my own car or in a taxi. He also informs me that I have to have photo ID and a full security check because a bus uses this road every second Tuesday. If I want fuel I have to pay $50 to pull off the road and use the garage's bitumen to get to the pump. I also have to pay 50c per litre surcharge because this is special fuel blessed by the RACQ. The chain man tells me that all this security has paid off because they haven't had one terrorist attack and only one major fuel contamination crisis since it was introduced. In fact it has been pretty near as good as the thousand years before it was introduced with the exception of a few isolated cases of chain vandalism. When I point out that in the previous 1000 years there were no chains to vandalise he looks a bit confused. Spare me from all this needless crap we have to put up with in the Aviation industry. If I'd know in 72 what was ahead I never would have become involved.
'They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian. They're not laughing now.' - attributed to Barry Humphries.
Cheers, RA
Traffic Is Er Was: Your post puts out more maybes than a virgin on prom night. When you have you situational awareness problem sorted out and you venture further north than Southport, you will find things are not as simple as you seem to think they are. I suggest you phone, say, 10 communities, and log the man-hours it takes just to speak to people who might know the answer to whatever airport question you might have. Remember you have the luxury of sitting at home where the phone works and have days or weeks before your big adventure north. Many of us have more to do than to ring every airport manager to check whether the rules have changed since the previous 30 visits. Forgive me if I'm wrong but you sound like Daddy's given you lots of money to learn to fly and you work for the government so you are experienced at being stuffed around and perhaps even enjoy it.
If we look at all the points you and others raised then transposed them to road transport there would be a riot. Imagine I wanted to visit my daughter who's teaching at Beenleigh school. All the roads to Beenleigh are locked so I phone ahead to make sure they will unlock them at night and on holidays. I find they do but I have to pay $50 to unlock them and then another $50 so I can use them and then another $50 so I can leave at the end of my visit. I can however delay my departure till Monday during working hours and save $50. The chain man helpfully tells me that driving on his bit of road is free if I have a truck delivering books to the school but not if I'm just visiting either in my own car or in a taxi. He also informs me that I have to have photo ID and a full security check because a bus uses this road every second Tuesday. If I want fuel I have to pay $50 to pull off the road and use the garage's bitumen to get to the pump. I also have to pay 50c per litre surcharge because this is special fuel blessed by the RACQ. The chain man tells me that all this security has paid off because they haven't had one terrorist attack and only one major fuel contamination crisis since it was introduced. In fact it has been pretty near as good as the thousand years before it was introduced with the exception of a few isolated cases of chain vandalism. When I point out that in the previous 1000 years there were no chains to vandalise he looks a bit confused. Spare me from all this needless crap we have to put up with in the Aviation industry. If I'd know in 72 what was ahead I never would have become involved.
'They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian. They're not laughing now.' - attributed to Barry Humphries.
Cheers, RA
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That was a good read....and you do have a point, and valid at that. Try printing it out with pretty pictures and sending it to the various ministers, see if you get a bite.
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Traffic Is Er Was;
Possibly the thing that annoys me most with PPRune is those who fail to read and digest the entire thread and join in at the end with non textual criticism and bloody no idea. To that end your post is rather annoying.
perhaps if you had read from the start, you may realise this is not in relation to a "weekend warrior" out pursuing his hobby but someone who's business depends on his being there. Perhaps you failed to also note that business is dependent at some times of the year on that aerodrome to conduct that business. Perhaps you also failed to appreciate the added costs impact that persons business and competitiveness.
Perhaps you simply just have no idea?
Maybe they feel they don't have to subsidise your hobby?
perhaps if you had read from the start, you may realise this is not in relation to a "weekend warrior" out pursuing his hobby but someone who's business depends on his being there. Perhaps you failed to also note that business is dependent at some times of the year on that aerodrome to conduct that business. Perhaps you also failed to appreciate the added costs impact that persons business and competitiveness.
Perhaps you simply just have no idea?
My comment was made after reading the entire post to date. There was no indication from the OP that he was there on business. If he was there on business then he should have found out the charges beforehand so that he can cover his costs. If he couldn't be bothered thats his problem so shut up and pay up. As for off-topic, 80% of the thread is devoted to off topic complaints of refueller call-out charges. I at least was responding to the OP. If he doesn't like my reply so be it.
RA, I've been in aviation for 30 years, nearly half was in Arnhem Land, so I'm pretty much over my "big adventure up north". Your analogy to road transport is pointless as they are not using private assets. Try driving on the road beside the rail line over in the Kimberly and see how welcome you are.
If there is a fee to use something, find out what it is and then it is your choice whether you use it or not. If you don't find out, then don't bitch about it afterwards. I agree. $50 to open a gate seems excessive, but I don't know what they are covering in that charge. Maybe they are losing money if they are paying someone a 4-hour callout to go and do it. Maybe you are actually getting it cheap and they are absorbing the rest? Maybe the gate is locked because they want to know who is entering their community and why? This happened in some communities I knew of. It's private land more or less, so they can pretty much charge (and do) what they like.
RA, I've been in aviation for 30 years, nearly half was in Arnhem Land, so I'm pretty much over my "big adventure up north". Your analogy to road transport is pointless as they are not using private assets. Try driving on the road beside the rail line over in the Kimberly and see how welcome you are.
If there is a fee to use something, find out what it is and then it is your choice whether you use it or not. If you don't find out, then don't bitch about it afterwards. I agree. $50 to open a gate seems excessive, but I don't know what they are covering in that charge. Maybe they are losing money if they are paying someone a 4-hour callout to go and do it. Maybe you are actually getting it cheap and they are absorbing the rest? Maybe the gate is locked because they want to know who is entering their community and why? This happened in some communities I knew of. It's private land more or less, so they can pretty much charge (and do) what they like.
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I've been in aviation for 30 years, nearly half was in Arnhem Land
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It is my view that landing charges are discriminatory unless there is a specific charge for using roads in the same locality! 
The local aerodrome runway is the most important strip of road in town, it is sad that councils don't appreciate that !
A single aircraft can bring thousands of dollars worth of business to a town, but a small landing charge will often deter that business.
A recent push to have charges waived to aircraft less than 2000kgs at some airports should be applauded.
As said above, the various charges these days are killing GA. The sooner aerodrome operators/Councils (and others) realise this the better we all will be.
The local aerodrome runway is the most important strip of road in town, it is sad that councils don't appreciate that !
A single aircraft can bring thousands of dollars worth of business to a town, but a small landing charge will often deter that business.A recent push to have charges waived to aircraft less than 2000kgs at some airports should be applauded.
As said above, the various charges these days are killing GA. The sooner aerodrome operators/Councils (and others) realise this the better we all will be.
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It's been my experience that many Councilors set on charging landing fees are townsfolk with town businesses. I wonder how many of them would think it's a good idea to put parking meters in front of their shops, or a toll booth at the town boundary, or levy the bus service bringing passengers.
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Where these refuellers fall down is they have forgotten the concept of "win/win".
I don't think any pilots going through the outback fail to understand these are single operators on call 24/7 so call out fees on weekends/public holidays not unfair.
The win/win would have been to charge each $30.00 or so - pilots save a bit on what they are going to be forced to pay (or no fuel) and the refueller gets a little extra in his pocket, all should be happy and the refueller get repeat business.
Simple really!
I don't think any pilots going through the outback fail to understand these are single operators on call 24/7 so call out fees on weekends/public holidays not unfair.
The win/win would have been to charge each $30.00 or so - pilots save a bit on what they are going to be forced to pay (or no fuel) and the refueller gets a little extra in his pocket, all should be happy and the refueller get repeat business.
Simple really!
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Self Serve Jet A1
HH,
Could you please elaborate on why self serve Jet fuel is a bad idea ? I am about to upgrade from my piston machine to a turbine, and whilst a lot of the time I will be fuelled in an airport with a truck, in the country that's not an option. I would appreciate your response.
Arrrj
Could you please elaborate on why self serve Jet fuel is a bad idea ? I am about to upgrade from my piston machine to a turbine, and whilst a lot of the time I will be fuelled in an airport with a truck, in the country that's not an option. I would appreciate your response.
Arrrj
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Traffic Is Er Was
I think my comparison between air and road transport is highly relevant. It highlights the nonsense we in aviation come to accept as normal. I strongly dispute your statement: "YOUR ANALOGY TO ROAD TRANSPORT IS POINTLESS AS THEY ARE NOT USING PRIVATE ASSETS". This is far from true. Everything in these communities - the houses, roads, shop, airport, police, health workers, teachers, store managers, and council staff are all funded by government, ie the ever suffering taxpayer. You of all people with 15 years experience in Arnhem Land should know this and would also know that almost none of these places have any commercial basis for existing.
In mainstream when you purchase your house and land the cost of the road water and sewerage are part of the purchase price. The upkeep comes from your rates. If you visit another town you don't pay for the privilege of using their streets just as visitors to your own town don't pay to use yours.
Why the bloody hell don't we have the same system in aviation? The messy inconsistent expensive way that charges are levied and collected in aviation is nothing short of lunacy.They certainly play a significant role in the decline of GA. A Jabiru flying YBCS- YKOW would pay more in landing fees than it would for Avgas used. In my business, when a large capital expenditure is contemplated we do a very careful cost-benefit analysis. Was this ever done when ASIC cards and airport security was proposed for isolated small airports? Of course not - it wasn't their money.
Back to YKOW, they are NOT using private assets. They have a hide charging for something they did not pay for in the first place. My argument is not about whether or not I should have checked for hidden costs. My argument is that the charges should not have been there in the first place. It should make no difference whether the visit was for business or pleasure. If you use that argument then all road vehicles not on business should be charged to travel on roads.How long would a government that tried that stunt last? Aviation is just another mode of transport. Why is it treated differently ?
Regarding their (the white kommandants) wanting to know who comes and goes, it would appear their biggest fear is having a spotlight shone on their nasty little concentration camps. eg What happened to the money provided to build a flood-proof road to the barge landing, which would have provided year-round affordable food? There's no road, no money, and no prosecution. Why? There's lots of other things a bright light would uncover but the attitude seems to be pay up and shut up. Its only another few million of taxpayers money wasted.
Yours in despair, RA
I think my comparison between air and road transport is highly relevant. It highlights the nonsense we in aviation come to accept as normal. I strongly dispute your statement: "YOUR ANALOGY TO ROAD TRANSPORT IS POINTLESS AS THEY ARE NOT USING PRIVATE ASSETS". This is far from true. Everything in these communities - the houses, roads, shop, airport, police, health workers, teachers, store managers, and council staff are all funded by government, ie the ever suffering taxpayer. You of all people with 15 years experience in Arnhem Land should know this and would also know that almost none of these places have any commercial basis for existing.
In mainstream when you purchase your house and land the cost of the road water and sewerage are part of the purchase price. The upkeep comes from your rates. If you visit another town you don't pay for the privilege of using their streets just as visitors to your own town don't pay to use yours.
Why the bloody hell don't we have the same system in aviation? The messy inconsistent expensive way that charges are levied and collected in aviation is nothing short of lunacy.They certainly play a significant role in the decline of GA. A Jabiru flying YBCS- YKOW would pay more in landing fees than it would for Avgas used. In my business, when a large capital expenditure is contemplated we do a very careful cost-benefit analysis. Was this ever done when ASIC cards and airport security was proposed for isolated small airports? Of course not - it wasn't their money.
Back to YKOW, they are NOT using private assets. They have a hide charging for something they did not pay for in the first place. My argument is not about whether or not I should have checked for hidden costs. My argument is that the charges should not have been there in the first place. It should make no difference whether the visit was for business or pleasure. If you use that argument then all road vehicles not on business should be charged to travel on roads.How long would a government that tried that stunt last? Aviation is just another mode of transport. Why is it treated differently ?
Regarding their (the white kommandants) wanting to know who comes and goes, it would appear their biggest fear is having a spotlight shone on their nasty little concentration camps. eg What happened to the money provided to build a flood-proof road to the barge landing, which would have provided year-round affordable food? There's no road, no money, and no prosecution. Why? There's lots of other things a bright light would uncover but the attitude seems to be pay up and shut up. Its only another few million of taxpayers money wasted.
Yours in despair, RA
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Lombadina strip north of Broome.
Just had notification of a rise in the landing fee.
It's just gone up to.............
Wait for it ................
$62.50 per tonne based on your MTOW!!!!!
A landing there will cost us $296.25 + GST.
If we don't give prior notice there is a $40.00 PENALTY quote unquote.
To those who know me, I don't fly there for the fishing!!!
When I questioned the fee, the Community CEO stated that the fee's are a main source of income for the community, and further implied that govt. departments have budgets, and thats what they are there for.
Needless to say, until this matter is sorted I'll be landing at One Arm Point, 23km up the road, operated by a different community.
Just had notification of a rise in the landing fee.
It's just gone up to.............
Wait for it ................
$62.50 per tonne based on your MTOW!!!!!
A landing there will cost us $296.25 + GST.
If we don't give prior notice there is a $40.00 PENALTY quote unquote.
To those who know me, I don't fly there for the fishing!!!
When I questioned the fee, the Community CEO stated that the fee's are a main source of income for the community, and further implied that govt. departments have budgets, and thats what they are there for.
Needless to say, until this matter is sorted I'll be landing at One Arm Point, 23km up the road, operated by a different community.
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the fee's are a main source of income for the community
Thank God for the accountant. Thank God for the gummit.
Makes a good man turn to the bloody grog it does. But have you seen the price of a cartoon these days?
On a marginally and only slight side issue, regarding the ownership of these assets, has anyone paid the investors who funded these airport projects in the first place.
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All your worries are over according to The CASA Briefing. One supposes all the "outrageous charges" will now be waived.
What's that Sooty????
What's that Sooty????
Extra funds for remote airstrips
This year's Federal Budget allocated an extra $28 million to improve the safety of airstrips in remote communities. The money will be spent over the next two years. Federal Infrastructure and Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese said these airstrips are often the life-blood of remote Australian communities. "They provide residents with regular air access to emergency services, essential supplies and access to regional centres," Mr Albanese said. The funding is part of the Gillard Government's commitment to remote and regional aviation, as outlined in the national Aviation White Paper. Over the two years $22 million will be provided for aviation safety upgrades on a co-funding basis; and to provide for a higher proportion of funding for works at identified remote Indigenous communities. Another $4 million will be provided to designated airstrips at Indigenous communities that receive essential flights subsidised under the Australian Government's Remote Air Services Subsidy Scheme. Applications for funding of aerodrome safety upgrades at eligible remote communities will open in June 2011 or early 2011-12. "This vital funding continues our commitment to the safety and reliability of remote air services through which $20 million in Australian Government funding was approved for 151 projects over the last four years," Mr Albanese said.
This year's Federal Budget allocated an extra $28 million to improve the safety of airstrips in remote communities. The money will be spent over the next two years. Federal Infrastructure and Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese said these airstrips are often the life-blood of remote Australian communities. "They provide residents with regular air access to emergency services, essential supplies and access to regional centres," Mr Albanese said. The funding is part of the Gillard Government's commitment to remote and regional aviation, as outlined in the national Aviation White Paper. Over the two years $22 million will be provided for aviation safety upgrades on a co-funding basis; and to provide for a higher proportion of funding for works at identified remote Indigenous communities. Another $4 million will be provided to designated airstrips at Indigenous communities that receive essential flights subsidised under the Australian Government's Remote Air Services Subsidy Scheme. Applications for funding of aerodrome safety upgrades at eligible remote communities will open in June 2011 or early 2011-12. "This vital funding continues our commitment to the safety and reliability of remote air services through which $20 million in Australian Government funding was approved for 151 projects over the last four years," Mr Albanese said.
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Good news - Bad news. First the good news is that YKOW is prepared to change it's $55 gate opening fee. The bad news is it's now $82.50 Roads are still closed . $1.5 has just been spent on helicopters ferrying in fuel for the power station due to someones stuffup. Don't worry it's only Govmint money. Anyway it would only have been wasted if it had been spent on building the road to the barge. Excuse me I have to go now and phone the Main Roads Dept and the local garage to see if there are any new user fees before I go and get my paper.
RA
RA
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I have spent the past 6 years working in communities.
The council does not have a rate payer base as a normal council. Housing is government paid/built with minimal rental/if any income.
There are not rates coming in as per normal councils.
The council receive funding from the govt for run the shire.
To top this up, the council tend to pillage other govt departments with over priced rates for govt owned buildings and of course any other civil company.
Add to that the publics perception that pilots and companies earn millions of dollars per year and you are going to get stung.
Its not about what service you can provide, its about whether they perceive that you can pay you bill, and then charge you accordingly.
The council does not have a rate payer base as a normal council. Housing is government paid/built with minimal rental/if any income.
There are not rates coming in as per normal councils.
The council receive funding from the govt for run the shire.
To top this up, the council tend to pillage other govt departments with over priced rates for govt owned buildings and of course any other civil company.
Add to that the publics perception that pilots and companies earn millions of dollars per year and you are going to get stung.
Its not about what service you can provide, its about whether they perceive that you can pay you bill, and then charge you accordingly.
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Well it's happened. The landing fee melanoma has metastasized. It started as a pain in the ar#e in only one place. ( Kowanyama ) Unfortunately it has now spread and the prognosis is a slow and painful death for general aviation. The only chance of survival is radical surgery. Cut these tumors out of aviation by cutting off their blood supply. I mean totally cut off. No Charter No private No medical No government No FIFO No mail No tourists. The d'heads that set these charges would soon learn whether they need aviation or not. It could be done without too much harm to the patient by conducting only one operation at a time starting at the worst site. But do we have the balls or organizational skills to make this happen? Sadly I think probably not. I received a reply from Mr Albanese which summarised said " So sad, too bad,try telling someone who cares."
Charges Aurukun---------------$80
Mornington Is.---------$72
Lombadina-------------$108
Tennant Ck-------------$43
Kowanyama-----------$110 plus $82 gate opening fee
These applied to a 1,723 kg aircraft. Some charges are flat rate,some per tonne
Charges Aurukun---------------$80
Mornington Is.---------$72
Lombadina-------------$108
Tennant Ck-------------$43
Kowanyama-----------$110 plus $82 gate opening fee
These applied to a 1,723 kg aircraft. Some charges are flat rate,some per tonne
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Are there any ministers who own an aircraft? 
When they start getting invoices for multiple visits to cowinyajama's it might get some attention.
I can see it now......rutan around sitting at the airport on the ground VHF in hand, long list of rego's in the other.....XXX turning base Full Stop. ABC straight in rwyXX full stop
When they start getting invoices for multiple visits to cowinyajama's it might get some attention.
I can see it now......rutan around sitting at the airport on the ground VHF in hand, long list of rego's in the other.....XXX turning base Full Stop. ABC straight in rwyXX full stop
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