Aussies flying in snow conditions.
Aussies flying in snow conditions.
I guess this one is for the internationsl QF drivers.
Growing up in Oz as such the only time I get to see snow is when I strap on a pair of skies and hurl myself down the slopes at the scenery. Off piste??...no thats when I get to the bar.
So how do the Aussie internation drivers cope with operating into ports where theres a blizzard, landing seems difficult enough, even taxing can be a challange. My only experiance of that was at Bathurst one year after a heavy snowfall. Got the fright of my life on landing......no brakes. Fortunately its a slight up slope. Tied the airfraft down and trained it home.
The US and European operaters work in these conditions day in day out, so they are well practiced. Does QF so much crew training, classroom stuff etc Is there a lot of experiance in theses conditions within the ranks.
The sight of a QF aircraft covered in snow is slightly incongruous.
Growing up in Oz as such the only time I get to see snow is when I strap on a pair of skies and hurl myself down the slopes at the scenery. Off piste??...no thats when I get to the bar.
So how do the Aussie internation drivers cope with operating into ports where theres a blizzard, landing seems difficult enough, even taxing can be a challange. My only experiance of that was at Bathurst one year after a heavy snowfall. Got the fright of my life on landing......no brakes. Fortunately its a slight up slope. Tied the airfraft down and trained it home.
The US and European operaters work in these conditions day in day out, so they are well practiced. Does QF so much crew training, classroom stuff etc Is there a lot of experiance in theses conditions within the ranks.
The sight of a QF aircraft covered in snow is slightly incongruous.
Silly Old Git
Its usually dead calm and smooth on approach, looverly . Landing lights can cause a bit distraction. Viz is generally good.
The headaches start when leaving the kite on the ground while it continues to snow. Its hard to shift the bloody stuff off.
Starting an engine to blow it off is futile. Attempt a take off with a pile of snow onboard, yer dead.
Sensible shoes/boots required for walking in slush
The headaches start when leaving the kite on the ground while it continues to snow. Its hard to shift the bloody stuff off.
Starting an engine to blow it off is futile. Attempt a take off with a pile of snow onboard, yer dead.
Sensible shoes/boots required for walking in slush
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Wet snow is a pain as it's quite "sticky" and hard to remove. Dry snow is a lot easier. Also, doesn't tend to go as slushy nearly as quickly.
You get quite adept at looking up the contaminated runway performance charts.
I generally take more fuel as the landing rate slows right down and thus there will be holding.
Often the taxi ways haven't been cleared as well as the runway so like riding a motorbike in the wet, slow is the go. It is disconcerting when you feel the nose gear slide...
The big German, Swiss, Scandi, Russian etc airports can operate in all but the worst snow storms whereas the airports that don't often get snow or the temp is hovering around zero things grind (or I should say slide) to a halt.
MOTNE decoders are your friend.
I prefer snow to freezing rain/fog any day.
You get quite adept at looking up the contaminated runway performance charts.
I generally take more fuel as the landing rate slows right down and thus there will be holding.
Often the taxi ways haven't been cleared as well as the runway so like riding a motorbike in the wet, slow is the go. It is disconcerting when you feel the nose gear slide...
The big German, Swiss, Scandi, Russian etc airports can operate in all but the worst snow storms whereas the airports that don't often get snow or the temp is hovering around zero things grind (or I should say slide) to a halt.
MOTNE decoders are your friend.
I prefer snow to freezing rain/fog any day.
Nunc est bibendum
It is disconcerting when you feel the nose gear slide...
How do we treat it? Conservatively. Lots of reading of manuals, charts, briefing packages and then lots of subsequent talking. Take things slowly, deliberate.
Thankfully I first observed snow ops from the back seat so was able to watch a couple of other guys work at it. They both commented that they too had first seen it from the back seat. I used many of the lessons learned that in '96 in February this year in NRT.
At the end of the day it's a problem solving exercise. You solve it the same as any other problem you face without much previous experience.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: n/a
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The one that really scares me is Freezing Fog. Nasty nasty stuff. Yet virtually no guidance on this stuff.
Probably the best versed ones on snow and ice would be the Canucks.
Snow and ice slows things down ALOT - like Keg said. Procedures and de-icing can get you going - but not all the time. Sometimes you just can not do it.
I find the biggest problem is when operating to places that "sometimes" get snow - the airport ground equipment is not geared for it and the the airport goes off the rails rather quickly ie you might get your aircraft there safely in one piece but you could be stuck on the ramp for hours on end waiting for an aerobridge as no one is departing and the terminal is full.........as they have run out of de-icing fluid!!!! Thats after landing on a runway that might have good conditions, then "#&^*tting you pants trying not to slide off the taxiway covered in ice and snow.
This is when graft and corruption keep an airline on the go - many years ago my father in law was posted to Heathrow as an airport manager for a very large asian carrier.....laaah!!! Each year he was there he was given several large boxes of the very finest whisky to distribute as he sees fit. His use was for de-icing. When de-icing was required a phone call was made and the de-ice team would simply dump whatever aircraft they were on and come running over to his......all for a bottle of (very good) whisky.......the old school guys knew how to run airlines!!!
Different braking co-efficents on runways that have been sanded or compacted , melting snow, drifting snow, wet snow etc etc. and can limit your crosswind capabilities considerably. Have a look here Canadian Runway Friction Index - Transport Canada
Also try here AIR - 1.0 GENERAL INFORMATION - Transport Canada particularly tables 1 to 4b gives some generic information.
Lots more to it - not just the "how to do" but the understanding why and what behind it. Google is your friend!!
Probably the best versed ones on snow and ice would be the Canucks.
Snow and ice slows things down ALOT - like Keg said. Procedures and de-icing can get you going - but not all the time. Sometimes you just can not do it.
I find the biggest problem is when operating to places that "sometimes" get snow - the airport ground equipment is not geared for it and the the airport goes off the rails rather quickly ie you might get your aircraft there safely in one piece but you could be stuck on the ramp for hours on end waiting for an aerobridge as no one is departing and the terminal is full.........as they have run out of de-icing fluid!!!! Thats after landing on a runway that might have good conditions, then "#&^*tting you pants trying not to slide off the taxiway covered in ice and snow.
This is when graft and corruption keep an airline on the go - many years ago my father in law was posted to Heathrow as an airport manager for a very large asian carrier.....laaah!!! Each year he was there he was given several large boxes of the very finest whisky to distribute as he sees fit. His use was for de-icing. When de-icing was required a phone call was made and the de-ice team would simply dump whatever aircraft they were on and come running over to his......all for a bottle of (very good) whisky.......the old school guys knew how to run airlines!!!
Different braking co-efficents on runways that have been sanded or compacted , melting snow, drifting snow, wet snow etc etc. and can limit your crosswind capabilities considerably. Have a look here Canadian Runway Friction Index - Transport Canada
Also try here AIR - 1.0 GENERAL INFORMATION - Transport Canada particularly tables 1 to 4b gives some generic information.
Lots more to it - not just the "how to do" but the understanding why and what behind it. Google is your friend!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lots of guidance provided by the Company. Unfortunately as more info becomes avaliable they just add it in. Now the problem becomes too much info not in logical format, from a multitude of sources. Basicly the Company is saying 'Weve provided the info...you get it right!!' Quite amatuerish really for a large outfit.
That said probably the most current and best is the Canadians publications.
TinPis, your comments are obviously what you have experienced but my experience is somewhat different. Right this minute I'm looking out the window (1 hour to sign on) it is blowing about 20kts, 40 degress off the runway, vis about 1000m in snow and aircraft arriving/departing. My experience of the last 20 years is that these types of conditions would represent about 3/4 of my time operating in snow and ice.
Each arrival departure you just assess, don't like it, don't go or if arriving..go...somewhere else that is, therefore have plenty of benzine and an alternate plan of action organised well before hand.
I've done the odd divert, occassionaly to somewhere unexpected but have never, ever been queried by the Company. They have just paid the bills and accepted it.
That said probably the most current and best is the Canadians publications.
TinPis, your comments are obviously what you have experienced but my experience is somewhat different. Right this minute I'm looking out the window (1 hour to sign on) it is blowing about 20kts, 40 degress off the runway, vis about 1000m in snow and aircraft arriving/departing. My experience of the last 20 years is that these types of conditions would represent about 3/4 of my time operating in snow and ice.
Each arrival departure you just assess, don't like it, don't go or if arriving..go...somewhere else that is, therefore have plenty of benzine and an alternate plan of action organised well before hand.
I've done the odd divert, occassionaly to somewhere unexpected but have never, ever been queried by the Company. They have just paid the bills and accepted it.
My introduction to adverse winter ops was in the Mid-West and East Coast of the US, a few years ago. I was lucky because I had the opportunity to experience the nasty winter weather they get with some very experienced Captains that had spent their whole careers flying in and out of O'Hare and Denver.
As others have sensibly said, the hardest part of operating in snow and ice is how you manage the aircraft on the ground, both before you take-off and after you land. Firstly you need to work out if you need to get de-iced, which isn't always obvious and then work out if you need both Type I and Type IV. Although, the old saying of "If you look out the window and start wondering if you need to get deiced, you probably do". works well.
You look at the condition of the ramp and taxiways, ask Ground how long it's taking aircraft ahead of you to deice, taxi to the runway and take-off. That'll give you an idea of how much fuel you're likely to burn on the ground or if there's still falling precip, whether you're likely to exceed your Hold Over time. In some ports like Toronto, they do deicing extremely well; you taxi in, leave the engines running and get sprayed down on both sides, like a car wash. In and out in around 15 mins from the time the last application of de-ice fluid starts. In O'Hare they spray you at the gate, which speeds things up but in other such as Philadelphia, it can take in excess of an hour to get de-iced once you join the queue.
Taking your time, discussing possible gotcha's and having a good Effo make the job much easier. Making sure the Cabin Crew know what's going on in terms of time and the fact that the cabin will get stuffy once the packs are switched off and then smell once they're back on due to the de-ice fluid, lowers their stress level as well as that of the pax. Most of the time, the pax are aware that things are going to take a bit longer when it's blowing a gale outside.
After that you keep an eye on the fuel, weather and watch your hold-over time. You taxi very slowly and try to avoid any sharp turns, if possible. Simple common sense will generally keep you out of trouble.
December '09 was a particularly bad month on the East Coast. I've never seen snow fall as hard in all the time I spent in the US; about an inch an hour, for 24 hours during one storm! The next day, it took an hour and half to push back and taxi out. All for a 50 minute flight.
As others have sensibly said, the hardest part of operating in snow and ice is how you manage the aircraft on the ground, both before you take-off and after you land. Firstly you need to work out if you need to get de-iced, which isn't always obvious and then work out if you need both Type I and Type IV. Although, the old saying of "If you look out the window and start wondering if you need to get deiced, you probably do". works well.
You look at the condition of the ramp and taxiways, ask Ground how long it's taking aircraft ahead of you to deice, taxi to the runway and take-off. That'll give you an idea of how much fuel you're likely to burn on the ground or if there's still falling precip, whether you're likely to exceed your Hold Over time. In some ports like Toronto, they do deicing extremely well; you taxi in, leave the engines running and get sprayed down on both sides, like a car wash. In and out in around 15 mins from the time the last application of de-ice fluid starts. In O'Hare they spray you at the gate, which speeds things up but in other such as Philadelphia, it can take in excess of an hour to get de-iced once you join the queue.
Taking your time, discussing possible gotcha's and having a good Effo make the job much easier. Making sure the Cabin Crew know what's going on in terms of time and the fact that the cabin will get stuffy once the packs are switched off and then smell once they're back on due to the de-ice fluid, lowers their stress level as well as that of the pax. Most of the time, the pax are aware that things are going to take a bit longer when it's blowing a gale outside.
After that you keep an eye on the fuel, weather and watch your hold-over time. You taxi very slowly and try to avoid any sharp turns, if possible. Simple common sense will generally keep you out of trouble.
December '09 was a particularly bad month on the East Coast. I've never seen snow fall as hard in all the time I spent in the US; about an inch an hour, for 24 hours during one storm! The next day, it took an hour and half to push back and taxi out. All for a 50 minute flight.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No experience in snow myself but lived and worked with an old hand from Orange, near Bathurst, a lifetime past. Many moons ago this capable oldhand was asked to move an empty Chieftan from a snowed-in Orange for a local ferry flight. Apparently no-one else was game but he gave it a go. He reasoned that if he was able to maintain control during the taxi phase then all should be well. From what I remember conditions were not pleasant but manageable and he took off and completed the task with great caution but without incident. Soon after, those who had apparently refused the job allegedly muttered criticism of risk taking.
My point is I am interested to read you trained it home. I imagine you have already completed the most hazardous part of the flight. Wouldn't the take off be far less hazardous?
My point is I am interested to read you trained it home. I imagine you have already completed the most hazardous part of the flight. Wouldn't the take off be far less hazardous?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No experience in snow myself but lived and worked with an old hand from Orange, near Bathurst, a lifetime past. Many moons ago this capable oldhand was asked to move an empty Chieftan from a snowed-in Orange for a local ferry flight. Apparently no-one else was game but he gave it a go. He reasoned that if he was able to maintain control during the taxi phase then all should be well. From what I remember conditions were not pleasant but manageable and he took off and completed the task with great caution but without incident. Soon after, those who had apparently refused the job allegedly muttered criticism of risk taking.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Great White North eh!
Age: 84
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Retired
True: but if we had done it too often we would not have been an "old hands." 
The trick is knowing what to do to make it work. Oh the stories.
The trick is knowing what to do to make it work. Oh the stories.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Commercial pressures are a way of life psycho joe, whether we like it or not. From what I remember, the younger line pilots were each asked in turn to get their own aircraft and they, for their own reasons, refused. The criticism flowed only after the old fella showed it could be done. As it happened, he had a lot to lose should something have gone wrong but it didn't; and I know he did what he did with consideration.
Indeed, aspinwing, the old hands do know a trick or two. If I had my time again I would spent more time among them, they're not old for nothing.
Thanks nomorecatering, back to thread now...
Indeed, aspinwing, the old hands do know a trick or two. If I had my time again I would spent more time among them, they're not old for nothing.
Thanks nomorecatering, back to thread now...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Commercial pressures are a way of life psycho joe, whether we like it or not. From what I remember, the younger line pilots were each asked in turn to get their own aircraft and they, for their own reasons, refused. The criticism flowed only after the old fella showed it could be done.
One such old hand that I knew flew a light aircraft through a CB just to show us younger line pilots that it could be done. Another such 'old hand' was convinced that you could fly across the PNG highlands in IMC at 7000'. Getting away with something doesnt make it less stupid.
Osmosis, that's the stupidist thing I've ever read. I bet if he had've crashed or damaged an aircraft, he wouldn't have been seen as such a hero then.
Good on the younger pilots for refusing to do a task they saw as stupid and dangerous.
Cowboys shouldn't be accepted in this industry.
morno
Good on the younger pilots for refusing to do a task they saw as stupid and dangerous.
Cowboys shouldn't be accepted in this industry.
morno
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't shoot the messenger fellas. I agree and wouldn't have done it either and have refused similar requests where I thought it all above my skills base at the time. There is always more to be learnt; that's my point.
'Old hand's' in GA tend to be there because they're unemployable anywhere else.
Unfortunately as more info becomes avaliable they just add it in. Now the problem becomes too much info not in logical format, from a multitude of sources.
Generally, with snow, the airport either has the facilities to handle it - so it will be open (or perhaps open with holding meaning fewer movements per hour to allow for snow clearing), or Snow Closed (SNOCLO)
If an airport reports SNOCLO (generally UK airports
) it will be SNOCLO for a couple of hours AFTER the snow stops, and the snow might not stop for a couple of hours! 
Condition: Snow is forecast, but not falling.
In the UK, and Europe in General, snow falls as a wide band following a gentle front (no storms in the front as in Aus, but a wide (40 nm thick) band following the leading edge). The speed of that front is hard to predict, as you are close to the centre of the low pressure, and one degree either way might mean snow or rain. The consequence is that, as that front sweeps through, it may simply rain, or produce easily handled light snow or MODERATE OR HEAVY snow - in which case many (UK) airports will be overwhelmed (ie. SNOCLO) in a short time. If you are inbound, not only your destination closes - but all of the close alternates close at the same time AND the further alternates become saturated with aircraft!
In these conditions (forecast snow at destination), I carry perhaps an hour of extra fuel - enough to divert (from perhaps top of descent) to a clear alternate, with the expectation that there will be a queue of aircraft looking to land.
Condition: Snow is falling
In the UK, the CAA operates a "back to blacktop" policy. (At the moment the UK refuses to issue braking reports for runways - they are either open or closed.
) They spread anti-icing chemicals on the runway, which are good for an inch or so of snow per hour (so you only have a 'wet' runway). If the snow gets heavier than that, they will close for 30 mins for scraping and clearing in each 90 mins or so - so you need at LEAST 60 holding to hope to get in. If the snow gets heavier then you are looking at a diversion of perhaps 40mins flying or so (and then joining the queue). In Europe the infrastructure is better - but there isn't a "back to blacktop" policy. The Europeans will run a snow clearing operation which recognises that the runway will be good after snow clearing (during falling snow), but deteriorates until they can get around to clearing it again. This means they WILL give you braking reports - GOOD/MEDIUM etc (you won't hear POOR as the runway would be cleared/closed before then). The worst I have heard is:
"Hello! The last braking test was "Good" 
However that was half an hour ago 
and snow has been falling ever since The last 737 landed 15 minutes ago and reported braking action "Adequate" What are your intentions?"
However that was half an hour ago and snow has been falling ever since The last 737 landed 15 minutes ago and reported braking action "Adequate" What are your intentions?"
). I decided to land - and stopped with about 15 meters to spare Technique
I have landed (in jets) in tropical rainstorms in Aus where I have experienced aquaplaning twice. I mention this as most pilot understand that aquaplaning means: feet on brakes = NOTHING. Which is quite scary
As this was during rainstorms, there was quite a bit of wind about - which leads to the interesting point:Aircraft are different from cars.
Some imagine landing on a slippery runway, and ending up sliding sideways down the runway - but this doesn't happen in aircraft. The difference is that aircraft have a rudder which is the main control for direction, effective for most of the landing distance. In the events above (even though windy, and with no braking force at all) I had no problem staying on the runway. (If you bother to look at the reports - it as ALWAYS the end of the runway which is the problem, not the sides!) Stay "live" on the pedals - ALWAYS "fly" the aircraft, and keeping straight isn't a problem - it's only stopping you have to worry about.
In the same sense, when taxiing, you don't have to worry about going up hills (unlike a car, you're not using the tyres for traction), you only have to worry about stopping and going around corners (and differential thrust is available on a twin!) - so slow down for those (obviously
) but you don't necessarily need to crawl on the straights.Outbound
De-icing is relatively easy - YES or NO. (NO saves money, and in mast cases a heap of time. Queues can be 90 to 120 minutes easily. If your aircraft is warmer than the next (maybe they over-nighted and you are on a turn-around, maybe they just finished a three hour sector and are cold-soaked and you aren't - you don't have to de-ice just because they are.) You need a clean aircraft to take off - are your wings clean? Will they stay that way? Then off you go! Skip the queue! (If it starts snowing on the way out, yes - you'll have to turn back for de-icing - welcome to "command judgement".)
The de-icer usually has more experience on mixes than you, and you can safely take their advice. You only need worry about ice in unusual places - check UNDER the wings (I have seen refreezing water form meter-long ridges three or four centimetres thick under the wings on a 737) and around the gear, or tell them you REQUIRE de-icing on the fueslage (when they tell you they don't).
Last edited by Checkboard; 22nd Dec 2010 at 01:30.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Osmosis: Don't pay any attention to the naysayers. If the rest of the world had the same lack of experience as Aussies do with adverse conditions, there would be no aviation. Come fly with me in Alaska and see how it is done.
Snow is rarely a problem, ice is always a problem, but both can be dealt with.
I have to admit that I do not enjoy putting the wing covers on after a flight when all I want to do is get in out of the cold, but it is not the snow that makes it uncomfortable, it is the temperature. I am good until the temp drops below -10C, but -20 or less is a real pain.
Freezing fog, now that is another matter!
Snow is rarely a problem, ice is always a problem, but both can be dealt with.
I have to admit that I do not enjoy putting the wing covers on after a flight when all I want to do is get in out of the cold, but it is not the snow that makes it uncomfortable, it is the temperature. I am good until the temp drops below -10C, but -20 or less is a real pain.
Freezing fog, now that is another matter!
Yes it's generally true we Aussies lack cold weather experience but its not that a big deal, providing you are prepared to adapt.More importantly, you must listen to advice from people who do have the experience. It is only another training exercise. I have flown all over Europe and the US in winter and yes Alaska too with all the same war stories of minus a million degrees and seem to manage OK. Freezing rain and freezing fog must be understood as a 'no-go' but otherwise it's just another weather problem. The only time I've been close to having an accident was hitting a 'dust devil' on short final in Alice Springs. The North Asian Typhoon season worries me more than snow flakes. The biggest thunderstorm I have ever seen was in dear old Aus. The worlds weather is different thats all.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Plenty of Ozmates here in the sandpit with regular and well earned experience of flying in winter wx.
Working for a ME carrier, you could be mistaken for thinking that there may be a slightly fearful attitude to winter Ops...but nothing is further than the truth...mostly
Lots of Ex britflop management here, along with experienced EU pilots..who have all combined to produce some truely outstanding guidance for the average Line Shagg (such as myself) to digest..and learn from.
Its really no bother..just as long as you carry a bit more fuel.
Working for a ME carrier, you could be mistaken for thinking that there may be a slightly fearful attitude to winter Ops...but nothing is further than the truth...mostly
Lots of Ex britflop management here, along with experienced EU pilots..who have all combined to produce some truely outstanding guidance for the average Line Shagg (such as myself) to digest..and learn from.
Its really no bother..just as long as you carry a bit more fuel.