Pre-Flight Briefing Availability/Question
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Pre-Flight Briefing Availability/Question
Hi All,
Long time since I posted something/anything of use so I thought Id plow in at the deep-end with both feet in mouth. Im not looking for an argument before anyone starts....just a nice discussion.
Im ATC in BN Centre (as some are aware and have heard my pommie tones) and was wondering what availability there is for private pilots to pre-brief (weather/NOTAMS etc) prior to flights out of 'smaller' airfields, i.e. Maitland, Port Macquairie, Singleton etc.
The reason I ask, is over the past few weeks Ive seen an increased level of what 'appears' to be poor pre-flight planning/briefing or navigation or mixture of both or an inability to easily get the required info, and I want to get your sides of the story and thoughts, hints, suggestions, constructive criticism etc
A couple of examples:
A VFR flies straight through R583B (near Williamtown) which has been NOTAM'd active mixing it with F18s/Hawks/F111s and neither listening out on area or with williamtown, it was in the restricted airspace for about 15mins, and then maybe the same one routing the other way about 30mins later! - on this note if you hear a transmission from centre that may be trying to identify you, its a lot more responsible to pipe up rather than be taken out by a fighter (and you will get bonus points for not just continuing on regardless - and turning your transponder off when you hear it, it is not clever just dangerous - believe me it happens). I dont know how CASA deals with these sort of things down here but the CAA in the UK when I worked there were lenient with pilots who answered/identified themselves and they through the book at the ones who didnt.
Theres no shame in admitting you messed up, geez Ive done it enough times (including managing to get a JS41 to overtake an A320, unintentionally
)
2/ An 'on-the-ground' frequency to contact centre has been notam'd out of service for several days, I then get told about 15times in one shift the pilot didnt get a response from centre on that frequency. (RPTs as well as Non-SChed traffic). It was oh sooo tempting to say on the 10th time, well no sh1t sherlock, read your notams.
So, guys, enlighten me into your world...I've always got something to learn
Alex
aka RB or Pommie B*****d (to my friends, and RPT pilots who've left their finger on the PTT too long
)
Long time since I posted something/anything of use so I thought Id plow in at the deep-end with both feet in mouth. Im not looking for an argument before anyone starts....just a nice discussion.
Im ATC in BN Centre (as some are aware and have heard my pommie tones) and was wondering what availability there is for private pilots to pre-brief (weather/NOTAMS etc) prior to flights out of 'smaller' airfields, i.e. Maitland, Port Macquairie, Singleton etc.
The reason I ask, is over the past few weeks Ive seen an increased level of what 'appears' to be poor pre-flight planning/briefing or navigation or mixture of both or an inability to easily get the required info, and I want to get your sides of the story and thoughts, hints, suggestions, constructive criticism etc
A couple of examples:
A VFR flies straight through R583B (near Williamtown) which has been NOTAM'd active mixing it with F18s/Hawks/F111s and neither listening out on area or with williamtown, it was in the restricted airspace for about 15mins, and then maybe the same one routing the other way about 30mins later! - on this note if you hear a transmission from centre that may be trying to identify you, its a lot more responsible to pipe up rather than be taken out by a fighter (and you will get bonus points for not just continuing on regardless - and turning your transponder off when you hear it, it is not clever just dangerous - believe me it happens). I dont know how CASA deals with these sort of things down here but the CAA in the UK when I worked there were lenient with pilots who answered/identified themselves and they through the book at the ones who didnt.
Theres no shame in admitting you messed up, geez Ive done it enough times (including managing to get a JS41 to overtake an A320, unintentionally
)2/ An 'on-the-ground' frequency to contact centre has been notam'd out of service for several days, I then get told about 15times in one shift the pilot didnt get a response from centre on that frequency. (RPTs as well as Non-SChed traffic). It was oh sooo tempting to say on the 10th time, well no sh1t sherlock, read your notams.
So, guys, enlighten me into your world...I've always got something to learn
Alex
aka RB or Pommie B*****d (to my friends, and RPT pilots who've left their finger on the PTT too long
)
Last edited by rotorblades; 2nd Oct 2010 at 17:58.
If you get onto the briefing website at Airservices Australia or have a copy of the NAIPS program (available from same site) you have instant access to all Australian information, ARFORs, TAFs, NOTAMS, GPS RAIM, etc etc. Just remember you should be submitting a flight plan at least 30 min before your scheduled deptarture time. (Done on the same site as you get your briefing. The format is almost identical to JAA notifications.
If the airfield has an instrument approach, it'll have a TAF. If it's an uncertified/unlicensed AD, any applicable NOTAMs will show if you request the location brief, otherwise you need to contact the operator listed in ERSA for details (BEFORE you have arrived). This is a legal requirement relating to where you can land.
All of the PRD airspace NOTAMS do tend to say words to the effect of;
"AIRSPACE MAY BECOME ACTIVE ON 30 MINUTES NOTICE,
PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO CHECK AND MAINTAIN STATUS"
ie. Even if it isn't supposed to be active, check before you go in.
A call to centre to "confirm status of Rxxx" will do the trick.
If the airfield has an instrument approach, it'll have a TAF. If it's an uncertified/unlicensed AD, any applicable NOTAMs will show if you request the location brief, otherwise you need to contact the operator listed in ERSA for details (BEFORE you have arrived). This is a legal requirement relating to where you can land.
All of the PRD airspace NOTAMS do tend to say words to the effect of;
"AIRSPACE MAY BECOME ACTIVE ON 30 MINUTES NOTICE,
PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO CHECK AND MAINTAIN STATUS"
ie. Even if it isn't supposed to be active, check before you go in.
A call to centre to "confirm status of Rxxx" will do the trick.
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what availability there is for private pilots to pre-brief (weather/NOTAMS etc) prior to flights out of 'smaller' airfields, i.e. Maitland, Port Macquairie, Singleton etc.
DIVOSH!
Also, the number of places where you can't access the internet in some way these days is shrinking fast, be it at home, internet cafe, hotel, mobile phone or modem for your laptop, so there's bugger-all excuse for getting airborne without reading the met and notams.
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Just Slack
Rotorblades,
What you are experiencing is the ever declining standard of flight training in this country along with the increasing growth of the Ultra Light or Recreational pilot brigade. You have to see and experience the arrogance of some these people before you will believe it. In their minds Australia is a free country and they will go when and where they please and anybody who tries to tell them different "can go and get stuffed". turning the transponder off would be standard operating procedure.
Recently I went into a terminal at a country airport to wait for my passengers and there were two gents sitting across from me in ernest discussion. After about 5 minutes one of them came over to me with a printed weather forecast and asked me, "could I please tell him what this **** means". He was pointing to the TAF for Dubbo. I duly translated it for him along with an explanation about the meaning of the INTER and TEMPO that would be valid for his arrival at Dubbo in his VFR Ultra Light sitting out the front. He thanked me and went to the Gents.
While he was gone his mate struck up a conversation with me and started telling me what a hero his RA Instructor mate was and that he had learnt a lot from him. I was still speechless 5 minutes later when they saddled up and headed off to Dubbo into what I would describe as full on IFR weather. I watched the news that night but obviously they made it.
I can relate many more similar stories to you about these types, who also infiltrate GA ranks, and I can only say it scares the crap out of me any time I am flying into and out of country airports. What you stated in your post does not surprise me in the least.
Groggy
What you are experiencing is the ever declining standard of flight training in this country along with the increasing growth of the Ultra Light or Recreational pilot brigade. You have to see and experience the arrogance of some these people before you will believe it. In their minds Australia is a free country and they will go when and where they please and anybody who tries to tell them different "can go and get stuffed". turning the transponder off would be standard operating procedure.
Recently I went into a terminal at a country airport to wait for my passengers and there were two gents sitting across from me in ernest discussion. After about 5 minutes one of them came over to me with a printed weather forecast and asked me, "could I please tell him what this **** means". He was pointing to the TAF for Dubbo. I duly translated it for him along with an explanation about the meaning of the INTER and TEMPO that would be valid for his arrival at Dubbo in his VFR Ultra Light sitting out the front. He thanked me and went to the Gents.
While he was gone his mate struck up a conversation with me and started telling me what a hero his RA Instructor mate was and that he had learnt a lot from him. I was still speechless 5 minutes later when they saddled up and headed off to Dubbo into what I would describe as full on IFR weather. I watched the news that night but obviously they made it.
I can relate many more similar stories to you about these types, who also infiltrate GA ranks, and I can only say it scares the crap out of me any time I am flying into and out of country airports. What you stated in your post does not surprise me in the least.
Groggy
A couple of issues :
Connectivity ;
Internet-coverage when away from the J-curve is not fantastic but is usually adequate for NAIPS. (that is, until ASA gets web2.0rrhoea)
Not many rural airport terminals have land-line phones that could be connected to a laptop for dial-in access to NAIPS.
Mobile broadband when in a coverage area is ok, assuming that you can link the phone or modem to something that has a decent screen area.
Notams ;
There are just way too many (do we all need to know that in 3 weeks time there will be fireworks displays in Ringwood and Margaret River and Fremantle)
Area-briefings are in the region of 45 pages of which around 30 pages are Notams.
Connectivity ;
Internet-coverage when away from the J-curve is not fantastic but is usually adequate for NAIPS. (that is, until ASA gets web2.0rrhoea)
Not many rural airport terminals have land-line phones that could be connected to a laptop for dial-in access to NAIPS.
Mobile broadband when in a coverage area is ok, assuming that you can link the phone or modem to something that has a decent screen area.
Notams ;
There are just way too many (do we all need to know that in 3 weeks time there will be fireworks displays in Ringwood and Margaret River and Fremantle)
Area-briefings are in the region of 45 pages of which around 30 pages are Notams.
One problem I have come across with notams for restricted areas is that sometimes they are listed individually and sometimes they are clustered under a title name, i.e. Port Wakefield Airspace.
Looking to check the status of, for example R295, some sections are listed on the charts as active by notam, but you will never find a notam heading R295. It is not in the list of locations having no notam either. Rather, it is found under the grouped title of Port Wakefield Airspace. Great if you are a local and know that - not so great if you're not.
In fact, not just for designated airspace, but in general I find there are way too many situations around Australia where local knowledge is assumed and relied on.
Looking to check the status of, for example R295, some sections are listed on the charts as active by notam, but you will never find a notam heading R295. It is not in the list of locations having no notam either. Rather, it is found under the grouped title of Port Wakefield Airspace. Great if you are a local and know that - not so great if you're not.
In fact, not just for designated airspace, but in general I find there are way too many situations around Australia where local knowledge is assumed and relied on.
I'm with Grogmonster -
The issue is not about availability of briefing material, but one of professionalism and that un-measureable thing that some people call "airmanship" (though I'm not too sure personally about the RA / Ultralight connection that he refers to)
Most of us do the right thing, and I hope that what the OP has described is a blip, and not an ongoing problem
And for what it's worth, to the OP - whenever I have required briefing or flight details in / out via Centre or Flightwatch, as a last remaining option, I have never been given anything except totally professional and courteous assistance, so thank you for that
CR
The issue is not about availability of briefing material, but one of professionalism and that un-measureable thing that some people call "airmanship" (though I'm not too sure personally about the RA / Ultralight connection that he refers to)
Most of us do the right thing, and I hope that what the OP has described is a blip, and not an ongoing problem
And for what it's worth, to the OP - whenever I have required briefing or flight details in / out via Centre or Flightwatch, as a last remaining option, I have never been given anything except totally professional and courteous assistance, so thank you for that
CR
KittyKatKaper
Seriously? 30 pages? Ok lets say there's 30 pages - how long does it actually, really take to read 'em? At 20 seconds per page, to skim a page and read what is actually relevant (Ausots - no, PRD not on your track - no etc etc) - that 30 pages will take 10 minutes,,,
PRD groups are readily available, in hard copy or online, detailing exactly what's included and the activation applicable - there's no excuse for being ignorant about it
So get a cuppa, sit down and read 'em - it won't hurt ya!
Alternatively, if you're truly allergic to NOTAMS - don't go flying
(Disclaimer: I'm not advocating endless, pointless NOTAM for no good reason)
of which around 30 pages are Notams
PRD groups are readily available, in hard copy or online, detailing exactly what's included and the activation applicable - there's no excuse for being ignorant about it
So get a cuppa, sit down and read 'em - it won't hurt ya!
Alternatively, if you're truly allergic to NOTAMS - don't go flying
(Disclaimer: I'm not advocating endless, pointless NOTAM for no good reason)
Singleton
...interesting you mention Singleton, I hear there is a flying school opening there this month 
Bottums Up
Rotorblades
Possibly relevant to your examples but probably not. I find from time to time that navaids or facilities that I don't need to use but usually see/hear don't appear on my specific NAIPS SPFIB.
To reinforce Grogmonster's comments, years ago as CFI at a country airfield, I had to do battle with a couple of committee members who believed that avoiding r/t, flight planning, rules & procedures, was the way to go.
One of them had a suposedly gifted aviator son, who died after flying into a big rock (CFIT), IFR at night. To this day I wonder if the father's lax attitude had rubbed off on the son, whom I didn't know other than to say hallo to.
Possibly relevant to your examples but probably not. I find from time to time that navaids or facilities that I don't need to use but usually see/hear don't appear on my specific NAIPS SPFIB.
To reinforce Grogmonster's comments, years ago as CFI at a country airfield, I had to do battle with a couple of committee members who believed that avoiding r/t, flight planning, rules & procedures, was the way to go.
One of them had a suposedly gifted aviator son, who died after flying into a big rock (CFIT), IFR at night. To this day I wonder if the father's lax attitude had rubbed off on the son, whom I didn't know other than to say hallo to.
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As Icarus said, it is most certainly NOT the case that if there is an instrument approach there is a TAF - especially not in WA on the weekend or during the middle of the night...! 
The 'area frequency out' scenario is one that has almost got me before. Sometimes those changes are in the Head Office NOTAMs which usually requires an extra box to be 'ticked' when getting your briefing material. Of all NOTAMs the Head Office ones are possibly the ones 'skipped' the most and because they cover the whole country somtimes something important can be missed in a quick skim read.
As for turning off txpdrs and not owning up to Centre, "not asseptible behaviour" to quote another Pommie TV personality...
The 'area frequency out' scenario is one that has almost got me before. Sometimes those changes are in the Head Office NOTAMs which usually requires an extra box to be 'ticked' when getting your briefing material. Of all NOTAMs the Head Office ones are possibly the ones 'skipped' the most and because they cover the whole country somtimes something important can be missed in a quick skim read.
As for turning off txpdrs and not owning up to Centre, "not asseptible behaviour" to quote another Pommie TV personality...
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Personally I think simple english is the way to go (and no I don't fly RA), it shouldn't be that hard to arrange.
Cloud heights for example, one digit for hundreds, one digit for thousands, one for tens of thousands. BKN005 is so much easier to interpret without misunderstanding than 'Broken cloud at 500 feet above aerodrome' in my book. With a bit of experience, when the information is presented in a condensed format you can cast your eye over a forecast a few lines long and immediately know how it is going to affect your flight.
I think there is also something to be said for presentation style being relatively consistent on a global level. If you have the time to put in x number of hours learning how to fly a plane you can put in just a few more learning how a weather forecast is written - it ain't rocket science.
Last edited by Captain Nomad; 3rd Oct 2010 at 03:49. Reason: Trying to keep the spelling Police away!
counter-rotation
Just for a rainy-day laugh I retrieved an Area 21 briefing at 3-Oct-2010 0349 UTC, the result was 39 pages with the Notams starting midway down page 10.
and that's my gripe, because they all have to be scanned, and the important/relevant ones to my flight can easily be lost in the bulk.
(Just discovered that there's a size difference when printing using a web browser versus the naips program, naips doesn't have as much page header and footer gung and produces 22 pages versus the 39 off the web browser.
The ratio of notams to forecasts is still the same though
)
Just for a rainy-day laugh I retrieved an Area 21 briefing at 3-Oct-2010 0349 UTC, the result was 39 pages with the Notams starting midway down page 10.
Seriously? 30 pages? Ok lets say there's 30 pages - how long does it actually, really take to read 'em? At 20 seconds per page, to skim a page and read what is actually relevant
(Just discovered that there's a size difference when printing using a web browser versus the naips program, naips doesn't have as much page header and footer gung and produces 22 pages versus the 39 off the web browser.
The ratio of notams to forecasts is still the same though
)
Last edited by KittyKatKaper; 3rd Oct 2010 at 04:20. Reason: header/footer
My 2 bob's worth: trying to wade through pages of MET and NOTAMs on the morning of your flight, make sense of what restricted areas are where and whether they will affect you, see where the SIGMET areas are, figure out what affects you, is no fun.
I've found it takes the heat right off me if I sit down with a coffee or a beer the night before I'm going somewhere I haven't been before, or been for a long time, and go through all that nausea in slow time.
Then in the morning when there's delays, changes of plan, U/S aircraft or whatever, that's at least one thing I'm on top of and can update with a quick check. Gives you the proverbial 'warm and fuzzy'.
I've found it takes the heat right off me if I sit down with a coffee or a beer the night before I'm going somewhere I haven't been before, or been for a long time, and go through all that nausea in slow time.
Then in the morning when there's delays, changes of plan, U/S aircraft or whatever, that's at least one thing I'm on top of and can update with a quick check. Gives you the proverbial 'warm and fuzzy'.
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After submitting a flight plan, how hard is it for Airservices to produce three sections of a document:
a) Forecasts/weather/NOTAMs for navigation points/aerodromes/waypoints/airspace traversed/with 30NM of track in flight plan with NOTAMs only with validity up to 4 after final ETA.
b) NOTAMs applicable within from 4-24 hours after final ETA
c) NOTAMs applicable 24+ hours after ETA.
Everything in English.
It's really not a hard programming job.
a) Forecasts/weather/NOTAMs for navigation points/aerodromes/waypoints/airspace traversed/with 30NM of track in flight plan with NOTAMs only with validity up to 4 after final ETA.
b) NOTAMs applicable within from 4-24 hours after final ETA
c) NOTAMs applicable 24+ hours after ETA.
Everything in English.
It's really not a hard programming job.
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Stop complaining about the notams. Open up your TAC or ERC, do some flight planning and plan accordingly. If in doubt request from ATC the status of whatever Restricted area you might be approaching.
When I was a student and then an instructor wow betide if you went into a restricted area without clearance, or forgot to cancel sar or you weren't within the 2 mins of your nominated arrival. My CFI had a the standard "case of beer penalty and he made sure you paid up"
Maybe the over reliance on GPS nowadays has made the art of flight planning obsolete
I have even wandered over to a rental car agency before and asked if I could get the weather etc faxed to me. Plenty of options available if your smart.
When I was a student and then an instructor wow betide if you went into a restricted area without clearance, or forgot to cancel sar or you weren't within the 2 mins of your nominated arrival. My CFI had a the standard "case of beer penalty and he made sure you paid up"
Maybe the over reliance on GPS nowadays has made the art of flight planning obsolete
I have even wandered over to a rental car agency before and asked if I could get the weather etc faxed to me. Plenty of options available if your smart.
If you cannot be bothered spending a few hours learning how to read a forecast then choose another hobby.
Professional pilots have no excuse. As someone said above, read the bulk the night before then just a quick check next day is all that is required.
That is why we get a one hour sign on guys. It really is not that hard.
There are some on here that sound like they want to be spoonfed the info required.
Professional pilots have no excuse. As someone said above, read the bulk the night before then just a quick check next day is all that is required.
That is why we get a one hour sign on guys. It really is not that hard.
There are some on here that sound like they want to be spoonfed the info required.