Career co-pilots??
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When I followed the federal court case where a new Jetstar F/O failed to meet the required standard on the line, I had the impression he received a A320 command endorsement from Alteon.
I was making an assumption "And what happens IF cadets only get a co-pilots endorsement?" Correct me if I'm wrong but no J* cadets have gone through the program yet. The new J* F/O you refer to was a direct entry pilot. Its quite obvious you have some vested interest in some cadetship program with your ranting about the regs, care to elaborate? IF the cadets only get a co-pilot endorsement (which does happen in some airlines) than those cadets without the experience of holding an ATPL could only get a command if ICUS is firstly approved by the company and secondly they have a command endorsement. The latter could be another way management enslaves the cadets a further 6 years already to their other 6 years.
Originally Posted by Chadzat
what is your personal opinion on what you have just written?
Lufthansa has been doing MPL training for years with very good results. However they look at the initial MPL training, aircraft endorsement, and initial line training as a single seamless program, and they train more than the "bare" minimum.
I know Alteon in Brisbane was the first organisation in Australia to be approved for MPL training, but I do not know the target airline for those students.
I think airlines looking at MPL training in the future will look at what they want as an end product, the skill set the need in their pilots, and work the training program back from that point. Traditional pilot hiring in the past had pilots building on previous experience, however when they started with airlines, pilots employed could have a wide spread of experience and skill making the first initial line training hit and miss.
MPL holders come out of their course being expected to be able to fly as co-pilot one aircraft type only, with one set of SOPs.
A CPL holder is expected to be able adapt to different types, sometimes in the same day, and be able to move between operators.
Originally Posted by Chadzat
do you not think the original intent of the rules to have 250 hours PIC was so that sufficient decision making skills were developed based on experience gained during those 100 hours after a CPL pass?
Originally Posted by Chadzat
Do you think ICUS is a sufficient method of gaining those skills?
They would be more rigorously trained and checked from day 1 of their work life within a CAR 217 system. I would think they would tend to stay on the same type, with the same operator.
If you took two pilots, a MPL holder and CPL holder, and looked at their pool of experience up to getting their ATPL, they would have very different competencies.
I would think a GA pilot would be more customer focused, most probably have excellent piston engine handling technique, good skills in operating out of very short unsealed strips, and a mix of single/multi time, VFR & IFR experience, mainly single pilot operations.
A MPL holder would most probably only have turbine experience, only pressurised experience, only multi, and only IFR, only multi-crew.
If you look at two pilots both with 4000 hours :
a) a MPL pilot who has gained their ATPL with 4000 hours in the same aircraft, in the same company, total time in industry 4 years.
b) a CPL pilot who has come up through the GA ranks, with 3 GA jobs, ATPL at 1500 hrs, jet job at 2000 hours, and has 2000 hrs co-pilot time, total time in industry 5 years.
While pilot a would have less time in the industry than pilot b, with a less diverse experience base. I think pilot b would have less relevant experience than pilot a for a multi-crew position in the turbine operation.
Those extra day VFR command hours that pilot b had at the start of their career is not very relevant at that level to the IFR multi-crew turbine operation.
Originally Posted by Bo777
Correct me if I'm wrong but no J* cadets have gone through the program yet.
Originally Posted by Bo777
Its quite obvious you have some vested interest in some cadetship program with your ranting about the regs, care to elaborate?
What does get my nose out of joint is when people say xyz is not possible under the regulations, when it is possible. Simple fact is that a lot of pilots in Australia do not know the regulations as well as they think they do, and often repeating what they have "heard" 3rd hand without actually seeing if it is actually correct.
Originally Posted by Bo777
IF the cadets only get a co-pilot endorsement (which does happen in some airlines) than those cadets without the experience of holding an ATPL could only get a command if ICUS is firstly approved by the company and secondly they have a command endorsement. The latter could be another way management enslaves the cadets a further 6 years already to their other 6 years.
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SWH
There is a difference between total aeronautical experience and total flying hours, the copilot hours count at 50% towards total aeronautical experience , so even the 1500hrs would effectively take 3000hrs to acheive.The regs state aeronautical experience for ATPL requirements.
Hope i haven't stated something obvious.
BY the way with your remarks re MPL Versus GA , the thing you forget is that command experience is not achieved sitting in the right seat,and believe me it certainly helps having a command head space when you go for a command.
There is a difference between total aeronautical experience and total flying hours, the copilot hours count at 50% towards total aeronautical experience , so even the 1500hrs would effectively take 3000hrs to acheive.The regs state aeronautical experience for ATPL requirements.
Hope i haven't stated something obvious.
BY the way with your remarks re MPL Versus GA , the thing you forget is that command experience is not achieved sitting in the right seat,and believe me it certainly helps having a command head space when you go for a command.
Last edited by flyby; 24th Sep 2010 at 00:51.
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Flyby, you've got it in reverse.
Total time you count 100% copilot, aeronautical experience is 50%. Regs ask for Total Aeronautical Experience.
Total time you count 100% copilot, aeronautical experience is 50%. Regs ask for Total Aeronautical Experience.
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
Originally Posted by porch monkey
You had me right up to the "same work same pay" quote. You don't actually believe that for one second, do you?
If Jetstar were to deliberately setup their internal policies preventing cadets from achieving the experience for an ATPL, and hence FO rank, I believe this would be covered under the misrepresentations provisions under the Fair Work Act.
Originally Posted by flyby
BY the way with your remarks re MPL Versus GA , the thing you forget is that command experience is not achieved sitting in the right seat,and believe me it certainly helps having a command head space when you go for a command.
A command scenario on say an A320 could include a dual hydraulic failure, one engine out, primary destination closed and alternate with a circling approach only down to circling minima at night, minimum fuel, and two very sick passengers, then throw in a cargo fire close to the MSA for good measure.
The command skills in getting that A320 down safely has little to being a "ace of the base" pilot, it has to do with time management, prioritise actions, and good CRM. You can learn that from the RHS, and the more exposure pilots have to cascading failures in a simulator during their cyclic training, the more relevant skills they have before they move to the LHS.
Originally Posted by tmpffisch
Total time you count 100% copilot, aeronautical experience is 50%. Regs ask for Total Aeronautical Experience.
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the Jetstar EBA does not differentiate ...
That is an industrial issue and I do not think it would be legal under the Fair Work act, same job, same pay.
From the J* EBA
"First Officer" means a pilot currently licenced by CASA and designated as such in writing by J*
"Junior First Officer" means a pilot who is appropriately trained, licensed and endorsed to act as a First Officer, but has insufficient experience to qualify for an ATPL. And their pay reflects this. JUNIOR FIRST OFFICER 60% of Level 2 FO- $55,454
Secondly who says the cadets will even be covered by the Australian J* EBA.
What does get my nose out of joint is when people say xyz is not possible under the regulations, when it is possible.
But with no experience, a co-pilots endorsement and most airlines reluctant to release pilots to gain command time (as the airlines own their hours) ... a command highly improbable (also remembering its their train set and they'll do whatever they want). So I could be totally wrong.
Last edited by Bo777; 24th Sep 2010 at 07:25.
Originally Posted by Bo777
Doesn't it???
Originally Posted by Bo777
"Junior First Officer" means a pilot who is appropriately trained, licensed and endorsed to act as a First Officer, but has insufficient experience to qualify for an ATPL.
From my reading of the Jetstar EBA, it would be possible for a pilot without an ATPL to receive FO pay, for example a pilot with the appropriate experience to hold and ATPL, but does not meet the age requirement to hold an ATPL.
Originally Posted by Bo777
I have never said its impossible and has happened at Qlink but only when the company has approved it for certain individuals and issued a command endorsement to those that need hours for an ATPL.
"Two years and 10 months after commencing his Commercial Pilot Training with Fast Track Pilot Training, 21 year old XX of Perth has begun training as a Captain on the Metroliner with Skippers Airlines. Fast Track CEO, Brad Coombe said, "when X came to us in 2006 he had been doing odd jobs as a gardner and was thinking about buying a lawn mowing round to fund his flight training. After much discussion he decided to fund his training via a bank loan. This allowed him to join our course full time. There was much controversy as to whether he could complete the Fast Track course in the prescribed 18 weeks and to his credit - he did! When X joined Skippers with a basic Commercial Pilots Licence & Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, there were some in the industry that were suggesting that this couldn't be done & that he would be stuck as a co-pilot for a long time with little prospect of ever becoming a Captain. X has overcome many hurdles & has coped very well and by all accounts has turned out to be a sound crew member in multi crew pilot operations with Skippers."
Now as far as I am aware, the Jetstar/TRTO do/will issue a command endorsement to all pilots on the A320 with them.
No need for the cadets to be "released" in order to get the hours for an ATPL, as you see above obviously Skippers does ICUS with their F/Os, and with that ICUS time, the pilot qualified for ATPL within 2 years 10 months after starting their CPL training with zero “GA” time.
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Now as far as I am aware, the Jetstar/TRTO do/will issue a command endorsement to all pilots on the A320 with them.
No need for the cadets to be "released" in order to get the hours for an ATPL, as you see above obviously Skippers does ICUS with their F/Os, and with that ICUS time, the pilot qualified for ATPL within 2 years 10 months after starting their CPL training with zero “GA” time.
No need for the cadets to be "released" in order to get the hours for an ATPL, as you see above obviously Skippers does ICUS with their F/Os, and with that ICUS time, the pilot qualified for ATPL within 2 years 10 months after starting their CPL training with zero “GA” time.
So seeing you've got all the "inside" goss about J*cadet program. Please tell us what their ICUS program consists of. I'm all ears.
the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision
shw reckons
From the recruitment website:
The only pilots that will be employed as a JFO's will be cadets. Like B0777 said, there is no garauntee that these guys will even be employed under the current EBA.
I'm not going to argue the GA V Cadet thing but I will say this. In general, the guy starting from GA already has 5-10 years of aviation and LIFE experience before the airline experience even begins. Certainly a valuable "head start".
And that would equally apply to a direct entry pilot with 6000 hrs total time, but insufficient instrument or night experience to qualify for an ATPL. Being a “cadet” or not does not come into it.
What are the minimum requirements to join Jetstar Airways?
The minimum requirements for selection as a pilot in Jetstar Airways are;
* Hold an Australian ATPL,
The minimum requirements for selection as a pilot in Jetstar Airways are;
* Hold an Australian ATPL,
I'm not going to argue the GA V Cadet thing but I will say this. In general, the guy starting from GA already has 5-10 years of aviation and LIFE experience before the airline experience even begins. Certainly a valuable "head start".
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SWH
I dont know what your GA experience was like but your qoute --
"has little to being a "ace of the base" pilot, it has to do with time management, prioritise actions, and good CRM."
Im no ace of base but that scenario sounds like a standard days work in my last GA job.
By the way CRM skills can and should be developed well before you jump into a two crew environment.
The last 5 years i did in GA was all IFR heavy twin rpt operations, the check and training regime was not much removed from my first airline job.
The failure model you describe maybe jet specific however check and training i was exposed to involved multiple failures to the aircraft specific to our operation ,
In my opinion dealing with a **** day in the real world with multiple redundancies is easier two crew than single pilot, Believe me ive been exposed to both those situations.
Command situational models are different when you change seats, and although the right seat is great place to learn skills to deal with your jobs specific challenges it all looks a whole lot different in on the other side.
Those years making command decisions in GA were invaluable especially when you need to think outside the square in a stressful non normal situation.
Im not saying that without GA experience all others pale in comparison, just that it gives a pilot a depth that really makes life a bit easier when you get your first jet job and upgrade.
Anyway just my humble opinion.
I dont know what your GA experience was like but your qoute --
"has little to being a "ace of the base" pilot, it has to do with time management, prioritise actions, and good CRM."
Im no ace of base but that scenario sounds like a standard days work in my last GA job.
By the way CRM skills can and should be developed well before you jump into a two crew environment.
The last 5 years i did in GA was all IFR heavy twin rpt operations, the check and training regime was not much removed from my first airline job.
The failure model you describe maybe jet specific however check and training i was exposed to involved multiple failures to the aircraft specific to our operation ,
In my opinion dealing with a **** day in the real world with multiple redundancies is easier two crew than single pilot, Believe me ive been exposed to both those situations.
Command situational models are different when you change seats, and although the right seat is great place to learn skills to deal with your jobs specific challenges it all looks a whole lot different in on the other side.
Those years making command decisions in GA were invaluable especially when you need to think outside the square in a stressful non normal situation.
Im not saying that without GA experience all others pale in comparison, just that it gives a pilot a depth that really makes life a bit easier when you get your first jet job and upgrade.
Anyway just my humble opinion.
Last edited by flyby; 24th Sep 2010 at 12:42.
You can learn that from the RHS, and the more exposure pilots have to cascading failures in a simulator during their cyclic training, the more relevant skills they have before they move to the LHS.
The exposure you talk of is completely subjective to the check Captain in charge of the sim, all of my command training came from bringing the aircraft back to the ground in one piece (accept for that time it came down in 2 pieces
) without knowing that any potentially incorrect call I made would be vetoed by the Captain.
Originally Posted by Bo777
So seeing you've got all the "inside" goss about J*cadet program.
Originally Posted by travelator
The only pilots that will be employed as a JFO's will be cadets. Like B0777 said, there is no garauntee that these guys will even be employed under the current EBA.
The EBA covers all pilots employed by Jetstar, refer to para 1.1 of the EBA.
Originally Posted by flyby
Im no ace of base but that scenario sounds like a standard days work in my last GA job.
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There wasn't much going on in Aus so I made the trip to Europe for a job.
Majority of Capts in the company I work for joined as cadets with no previous experience. 3 to 4 years later are upgraded on the 737.
I fly regularly with Capts with around 3000 TT !! Combined cockpit age is regularly less than 50.
Is there any advantage for the Aussie job market having some 737 PIC time ?
I'm guessing for VB that everyone joins at the same level as a new F/O no matter the hours ?
Majority of Capts in the company I work for joined as cadets with no previous experience. 3 to 4 years later are upgraded on the 737.
I fly regularly with Capts with around 3000 TT !! Combined cockpit age is regularly less than 50.
Is there any advantage for the Aussie job market having some 737 PIC time ?
I'm guessing for VB that everyone joins at the same level as a new F/O no matter the hours ?
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need an answer pilot student who crashed stall test
Can someone help? I'm working on a childrens book abt a friend who died in a plane crash at Embry in Prescott AZ in 2000. His final flight before graduation. He took the plane up with his instructor for the "stall test". The plane crashed, both were killed.
I need to know what may have happened in the cockpit. I do not know a thing about flying. For ex: did he push up? push down? may the plane have rolled? it did not flame.
I just need basics for the book which is directed to 10-14 yr olds. Does anyone have time to answer, I want to do this for my dear friend who died, Captain Tyson Kuhrt.
Thanks so much! I'm nearing the final chapter of the book and need this info.
Robin
I need to know what may have happened in the cockpit. I do not know a thing about flying. For ex: did he push up? push down? may the plane have rolled? it did not flame.
I just need basics for the book which is directed to 10-14 yr olds. Does anyone have time to answer, I want to do this for my dear friend who died, Captain Tyson Kuhrt.
Thanks so much! I'm nearing the final chapter of the book and need this info.
Robin
SWH
Correct, but only if you are employed under that EBA. It does not apply to any of the other Jetstar companies (NZ, Singapore etc). Like I said, there is no garauntee that they will be employed under this EBA. They may be "offered" a position anywhere under any existing or new agreement.
Reading posts from other threads it appears that they are not taking on cadets that already have an ATPL (nor should they, that is not a cadet scheme). If employed under the current Australian EBA they would draw a normal FO salary. If no ATPL then JFO pay until qualified. In order to qualify they need the ICUS or time off to get command in their own time. Why would the company allow this as once the cadet has an ATPL, their pay goes up. Lets not kid ourselves here, this scheme is ONLY about reducing costs. It is the mantra of the LCC.
The EBA covers all pilots employed by Jetstar, refer to para 1.1 of the EBA.
Reading posts from other threads it appears that they are not taking on cadets that already have an ATPL (nor should they, that is not a cadet scheme). If employed under the current Australian EBA they would draw a normal FO salary. If no ATPL then JFO pay until qualified. In order to qualify they need the ICUS or time off to get command in their own time. Why would the company allow this as once the cadet has an ATPL, their pay goes up. Lets not kid ourselves here, this scheme is ONLY about reducing costs. It is the mantra of the LCC.
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It's quite obvious swh is a little confused. He states:
then in the next breath
Really?
By the way swh look at para 4.1 of the EBA
swh do you know what a douchebag is?
I have already stated I have no inside knowledge or affiliation with Jetstar.
Your application would be accepted today if you have the experience requirements without an Australian ATPL.
By the way swh look at para 4.1 of the EBA
The EBA covers all pilots employed by Jetstar, refer to para 1.1 of the EBA
Originally Posted by travelator
Correct, but only if you are employed under that EBA.
Originally Posted by travelator
It does not apply to any of the other Jetstar companies (NZ, Singapore etc).
Originally Posted by travelator
Reading posts from other threads it appears that they are not taking on cadets that already have an ATPL (nor should they, that is not a cadet scheme).
Originally Posted by travelator
this scheme is ONLY about reducing costs
Originally Posted by Bo777
Really?
Originally Posted by flyby
Can you tell me why my statement is not credible?, but my guess is you probably cant, Why because you have no idea !