Generic check lists - logical or illogical?
Grizzly:
Sorry, my shorthand. It is a Two part action.
It's actually "Undercarriage selected down" and
"Three greens, undercarriage locked".
My hand goes on the lever as I select undercarriage down and it doesn't leave that lever until I see Three Greens. That is a physical halt in proceedings for maybe Four or Five seconds while the gear extends. Nothing else is done until we see the greens.
More than one accident has occurred when the gear was simply selected down and the checklist continued without the essential check for Three greens. Even in the old Arrow I've once had to cycle the gear to get Three Greens.
As I said, I'm terminally stupid. I need to remind myself that simply putting the gear lever to "down" does not guarantee that it is down, waiting for Three Greens is the available way of confirming that.
Why "undercarriage - Down and Locked"?
Last aircraft I flew that had 2 gear levers - one for gear up/down, and one for gear locked/unlocked - was a DC3, so you did have to check gear down and gear locked. Modern aircraft have just 1 lever, so in a retractable aircraft the pilot is only checking he's got the green lights, checking gear "down", not checking the gear is "locked" - so why teach this aviation fossil?
Last aircraft I flew that had 2 gear levers - one for gear up/down, and one for gear locked/unlocked - was a DC3, so you did have to check gear down and gear locked. Modern aircraft have just 1 lever, so in a retractable aircraft the pilot is only checking he's got the green lights, checking gear "down", not checking the gear is "locked" - so why teach this aviation fossil?
It's actually "Undercarriage selected down" and
"Three greens, undercarriage locked".
My hand goes on the lever as I select undercarriage down and it doesn't leave that lever until I see Three Greens. That is a physical halt in proceedings for maybe Four or Five seconds while the gear extends. Nothing else is done until we see the greens.
More than one accident has occurred when the gear was simply selected down and the checklist continued without the essential check for Three greens. Even in the old Arrow I've once had to cycle the gear to get Three Greens.
As I said, I'm terminally stupid. I need to remind myself that simply putting the gear lever to "down" does not guarantee that it is down, waiting for Three Greens is the available way of confirming that.
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Sunfish: This is why I check gear down and locked and greens on Downwind, Base AND Final. - Can't be too cautious 
Plus: I'm pretty new to RG systems - it's still a little excitement to have an aircraft where the wheels go up and go down on the movement of a lever
Plus: I'm pretty new to RG systems - it's still a little excitement to have an aircraft where the wheels go up and go down on the movement of a lever
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Gear down and locked for amphibians is not good enough, you also need to know if it should be UP and locked, which works better for landing on water.
I have seen many incidents of floatplanes going ar$e over head from landing on water with the wheels "down and locked"
Maybe all students should identify landing surface and make decision whether to ensure down and locked or up and locked, just in case they fly floating hull one day.
The right check list is the type and even aircraft specific one for the exact plane that you are flying at the time. Sprogs were let loose in spitfires with shorter check lists than the average moorabin mercenary equips his luckless student with.
Having said that short finals checks of gear is not a bad one, but as far as flaps and cowl flaps go, these should already have been selected - TO THE APPROPRIATE positon, not just Full down and full open, and don't get me started on carby heat, that should be in the hot position until "after landing" according to most if not all engine manufacturers. Automatically going full rich on down wind is a crock and can even cause issues - in some circumstances - and it is these circumstances that require discretiopn and airmanship to be properly taught - not just rote recitation of generic lists.
HD
I have seen many incidents of floatplanes going ar$e over head from landing on water with the wheels "down and locked"
Maybe all students should identify landing surface and make decision whether to ensure down and locked or up and locked, just in case they fly floating hull one day.
The right check list is the type and even aircraft specific one for the exact plane that you are flying at the time. Sprogs were let loose in spitfires with shorter check lists than the average moorabin mercenary equips his luckless student with.
Having said that short finals checks of gear is not a bad one, but as far as flaps and cowl flaps go, these should already have been selected - TO THE APPROPRIATE positon, not just Full down and full open, and don't get me started on carby heat, that should be in the hot position until "after landing" according to most if not all engine manufacturers. Automatically going full rich on down wind is a crock and can even cause issues - in some circumstances - and it is these circumstances that require discretiopn and airmanship to be properly taught - not just rote recitation of generic lists.
HD
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don't get me started on carby heat, that should be in the hot position until "after landing"
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Tankengine
Good point....not that I have carby heat anymore. However it does rasie a point that might be helpful to some newbies.
Just becuse its on your checklist, and its fitted, does not mean you should just "Do It". There may be some very good reason not to do it. the point is THINK about the function.
For those of us who fly predominantly the same machine all the time, and have develloped a simple left to right check list for every phase of flight, this can come in handy when you jump into a simple machine.....does not mean you DO everything, but you still think about the task and whether to apply it.
One that comes to mind is PITOT HEAT. If its an IFR flight and anything other than 8/8ths blue.....its ON. The EMS system even asks you! Of course on a VFR jolly locally on a nice day....leave it off!
J
Good point....not that I have carby heat anymore. However it does rasie a point that might be helpful to some newbies.
Just becuse its on your checklist, and its fitted, does not mean you should just "Do It". There may be some very good reason not to do it. the point is THINK about the function.
For those of us who fly predominantly the same machine all the time, and have develloped a simple left to right check list for every phase of flight, this can come in handy when you jump into a simple machine.....does not mean you DO everything, but you still think about the task and whether to apply it.
One that comes to mind is PITOT HEAT. If its an IFR flight and anything other than 8/8ths blue.....its ON. The EMS system even asks you! Of course on a VFR jolly locally on a nice day....leave it off!
J
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TankEngine, Jaba and AS, totally agree and do operate exactly like that.
Carb Heat (for example) is a control that should be used WHEN CONDITIONS INDICATE CARB ICING IS LIKELY.
Any feckwit who uses carb heat when it's 40 in the waterbag and low humidity , and on a dusty strip shows no understanding of what it is there for.
Likewise PyroTek who has no idea what Carby Heat is for if his (or her) only concept is
and even put a little finger wagger to put me back in my place!!
Mate, grow up, and i actually mean grow up and get some in. you are a kid and need to do a bit of research.
carb ice (when conditions prevail) is most likely in the last hndred feet or so of your approach, right when the rote check list tells y0u to put it off.
if you want enough power for the go-around, not having a gut full of carb ice is a good way to start, and if you do have it, you will get better power with carb heat on than off.
Check the things that you actually need and select as required. wheels up /down, carb heat, cowl flaps, landing flap etc. the AFM f a specific type will let you know what is the important stuff, but you do actually need a grasp of basics.
HD
Carb Heat (for example) is a control that should be used WHEN CONDITIONS INDICATE CARB ICING IS LIKELY.
Any feckwit who uses carb heat when it's 40 in the waterbag and low humidity , and on a dusty strip shows no understanding of what it is there for.
Likewise PyroTek who has no idea what Carby Heat is for if his (or her) only concept is
I think instructors teach students to turn carb heat off on Final because in the event of a go around, they may go full throttle and not get best power on climb out because they forgot about Carb heat during the ground run.
Mate, grow up, and i actually mean grow up and get some in. you are a kid and need to do a bit of research.
carb ice (when conditions prevail) is most likely in the last hndred feet or so of your approach, right when the rote check list tells y0u to put it off.
if you want enough power for the go-around, not having a gut full of carb ice is a good way to start, and if you do have it, you will get better power with carb heat on than off.
Check the things that you actually need and select as required. wheels up /down, carb heat, cowl flaps, landing flap etc. the AFM f a specific type will let you know what is the important stuff, but you do actually need a grasp of basics.
HD
as far as flaps and cowl flaps go, these should already have been selected - TO THE APPROPRIATE positon, not just Full down and full open,
Never yet seen a manufacturer's checklist that requires the cowl flaps to be opened prior to landing. After landing - yes for obvious reasons. If a go-around is required on short final the cowl flaps should remain in the recommended position which is normally closed.
By the time the aircraft has climbed back to circuit height which is around one minute at climb power there is no way the CHT will increase so much that rapid opening of cowl flaps becomes necessary. If a prolonged climb is needed then there is plenty of time to select cowl flaps open after the aircraft is cleaned up.
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Mate, grow up, and i actually mean grow up and get some in. you are a kid and need to do a bit of research.
carb ice (when conditions prevail) is most likely in the last hndred feet or so of your approach, right when the rote check list tells y0u to put it off.
if you want enough power for the go-around, not having a gut full of carb ice is a good way to start, and if you do have it, you will get better power with carb heat on than off.
Check the things that you actually need and select as required. wheels up /down, carb heat, cowl flaps, landing flap etc. the AFM f a specific type will let you know what is the important stuff, but you do actually need a grasp of basics.
carb ice (when conditions prevail) is most likely in the last hndred feet or so of your approach, right when the rote check list tells y0u to put it off.
if you want enough power for the go-around, not having a gut full of carb ice is a good way to start, and if you do have it, you will get better power with carb heat on than off.
Check the things that you actually need and select as required. wheels up /down, carb heat, cowl flaps, landing flap etc. the AFM f a specific type will let you know what is the important stuff, but you do actually need a grasp of basics.
After following your direction and doing a little research, among personal experience, I referred to "The Flying Training Manual" by the Aviation Theory Centre: Page 211: "Final Approach"
Excerpt:
...Complete the final check (PUF):
- propellor full fine;
- undercarriage down; and
- flaps full (carburettor heat cold)
Confirm that the runway is clear and that you are cleared to land...
- propellor full fine;
- undercarriage down; and
- flaps full (carburettor heat cold)
Confirm that the runway is clear and that you are cleared to land...
However, I shall keep your suggestion to research in mind. I'm not disagreeing with you on any point about how icing conditions can prevail in the last few hundred feet of approach, or on a humid day, merely referring to what I have been asked to study.
However, apparently it is not advised to have Carb heat on, on the ground, due engine wear.Perhaps I'm not "reading between the lines"..
Flame shield up, etc. etc.
Regardless, this is a considerable amount of thread drift.
What's that old saying about "textbook" smarts, and "street" smarts??
Textbooks are an excellent foundation but you simply can't get experience from a textbook.
Memorising a technique that works on a single aircraft does not constitute an understanding of the aircraft, like some text books and instructors might have us believe. Different aircraft have quite different engine management and flight requirements.
Oh, and on the subject of carb ice, I knew a lass once that had no understanding of icing at all. Just before take off on what was a very cold day, but not necessarily one conducive to icing conditions, she applied carb heat as a precaution whilst lined up - no more than 15 secs or so because the book said "if you suspect icing may be present, etc"
She managed to heat up the air to a temperature that actually caused the carb to ice up
Fortunately, she DID have an understanding of when to abort a takeoff, albeit 750m down a 1000m runway!
Textbooks are an excellent foundation but you simply can't get experience from a textbook.
Memorising a technique that works on a single aircraft does not constitute an understanding of the aircraft, like some text books and instructors might have us believe. Different aircraft have quite different engine management and flight requirements.
Oh, and on the subject of carb ice, I knew a lass once that had no understanding of icing at all. Just before take off on what was a very cold day, but not necessarily one conducive to icing conditions, she applied carb heat as a precaution whilst lined up - no more than 15 secs or so because the book said "if you suspect icing may be present, etc"
She managed to heat up the air to a temperature that actually caused the carb to ice up
Fortunately, she DID have an understanding of when to abort a takeoff, albeit 750m down a 1000m runway!
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trouble with generic checks is that it can put you in a mindset. For years I used the same checklist drummed into my head by an instructor from day one. Trouble is - you got so used to going through the routine that when you actually changed aircraft and went through the checklist, it didn't quite mould with the aircraft!!eg pitch "fixed" was one of the checks instilled in my head from years and hours of flying fixed pitch props (undercarriage "fixed" was another) and when I flew CSU's I remember doing my checks and in my brain I would rattle through the checks and pitch "fixed" would come out even though I was looking at the RPM/MANIFOLD pressures and toying with the throttle/RPM levers. Same with U/C.
It wasn't until I started getting many type ratings (now over 30) plus starting to own my own aircraft that I went to the checklist from the Flight Manual for each aircraft, laminated, and read from those - regardless of how basic the aircraft or aircraft type. Flight manuals have the checklist included, in my opinion, for good reason and if you stick to them, you can't go wrong.
No instructor has ever given me **** for going off a checklist card, regardless of the type. Some have commented on BFR's and I just tell them "its the flight manual checklist" and they 'happy as larry'.
It wasn't until I started getting many type ratings (now over 30) plus starting to own my own aircraft that I went to the checklist from the Flight Manual for each aircraft, laminated, and read from those - regardless of how basic the aircraft or aircraft type. Flight manuals have the checklist included, in my opinion, for good reason and if you stick to them, you can't go wrong.
No instructor has ever given me **** for going off a checklist card, regardless of the type. Some have commented on BFR's and I just tell them "its the flight manual checklist" and they 'happy as larry'.
