SARTIME minus 5
The only way for enroute ATC to cancel a SARTIME is to write down the details on a strip as the pilot says them. The ATC then calls the data guy and the data guy writes down the details on his own strip as the ATC reads the details that they copied from the pilot. The data guy then hangs up from the ATC and calls CENSAR on the 1800 number or or sends them a fancy message on the internoodle and gives them the details that they copied from the ATC.
The faffing around is tremendous, hence the occasional grumbles.
The faffing around is tremendous, hence the occasional grumbles.
IF it is such a pain then that is an INTERNAL AsA problem not the problem of the pilot.
All that WORK above takes HOW LONG? Two minutes?
You guys are unbelievable.
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Onezeroonethree:
Most modern nokia's have an alarm that turns the phone on and screams at you. Mine did at least, since it lost it's power button about a year ago, that's what i've been doing to ensure I can turn it back on if it turns off. (Apart from fiddling with screwdrivers and shorting the circuit board on the phone) - new phone now.
My Nseries turned on, with the alarm, if you pressed "Stop" as opposed to "snooze" or whatever, it would come up with "Turn on phone? (Y/N)" - I'm interested as to whether other brands do this too.
Most modern nokia's have an alarm that turns the phone on and screams at you. Mine did at least, since it lost it's power button about a year ago, that's what i've been doing to ensure I can turn it back on if it turns off. (Apart from fiddling with screwdrivers and shorting the circuit board on the phone) - new phone now.
My Nseries turned on, with the alarm, if you pressed "Stop" as opposed to "snooze" or whatever, it would come up with "Turn on phone? (Y/N)" - I'm interested as to whether other brands do this too.
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It was just that Phil Vabre can't read.
I don't know what the number of un-cancelled SARWATCHes for arrival is. It does happen but since the comms checks in the first instance are done by the Controller looking after the flight, and this usually resolves the issue, the problem is not so great for IFR.
Phil, any idea how many sartimes are lodged each year. I'm curious as to what % that is.
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All that WORK above takes HOW LONG? Two minutes?
You guys are unbelievable.
You guys are unbelievable.
So you can make a phone call or get your nanny to make the call flor you?
It's sooooooo hard to be a pilot these days.......................
Jack, you are missing the point, on purpose I guess.
It is part of the role of an ATCO, just like cancelling my SARWATCH when I land IFR at an non towered aerodrome. Should I call on my mobile then as well to reduce their work load?
I did not say it was hard to make a phone call but that is not the point.
It is part of the role of an ATCO, just like cancelling my SARWATCH when I land IFR at an non towered aerodrome. Should I call on my mobile then as well to reduce their work load?
I did not say it was hard to make a phone call but that is not the point.
Icarus, thankyou for being soooooo understanding of the other guy's job. No more complaining for you if a controller asks something a bit hard. It's your aeroplane darling, so deal with it. I just push you around 
Sure, it's my job and I gladly, willingly, nay, treasure doing it (being a crusty old FSO and all), but is it my fault our system was ahead of its time and GA still exists?
Personally, I'd prefer SARTIMEs were still held with the sector responsible for the aerodrome and we provided a service. Oh damn, I'm one of Dick's recalcitrants.
Sure, it's my job and I gladly, willingly, nay, treasure doing it (being a crusty old FSO and all), but is it my fault our system was ahead of its time and GA still exists?
Personally, I'd prefer SARTIMEs were still held with the sector responsible for the aerodrome and we provided a service. Oh damn, I'm one of Dick's recalcitrants.
We don't actually hold a SARWATCH as a time thing that needs to be cancelled. When you safely land it automatically cancels itself. I don't call anyone, but I just saw you land. It's more of a if you stop talking to me or don't check in with me at the right time I have to go looking for you. If I can't find you then we initiate SAR procedures (not quite that simple but the whole process doesn't matter on here). If I see you crash then I push the crash button.
SARTIME on the other hand I don't even know generally which aircraft has one on them, until CENSAR calls me asking if you have arrived. Interestingly I can't cancel it for you anyway without making contact with you, the PIC. If you are in the circuit we have to speak to you over the air to cancel it.
Personally I will do my best to cancel it for you when I am asked, however just like when I am flying and I Aviate Navigate Communicate, when I am controlling I have to separate first, using the phone is far down the list in order of priority, particularly when I have no idea if your SARTIME expires in 1 minutes or 1 hour.
I guess that is why often we will ask if you are able to do it via phone.
SARTIME on the other hand I don't even know generally which aircraft has one on them, until CENSAR calls me asking if you have arrived. Interestingly I can't cancel it for you anyway without making contact with you, the PIC. If you are in the circuit we have to speak to you over the air to cancel it.
Personally I will do my best to cancel it for you when I am asked, however just like when I am flying and I Aviate Navigate Communicate, when I am controlling I have to separate first, using the phone is far down the list in order of priority, particularly when I have no idea if your SARTIME expires in 1 minutes or 1 hour.
I guess that is why often we will ask if you are able to do it via phone.
Be VERY careful Mr Pingouin - lest thou be 'called in' for tea without the bikkies......
Cheers
Hi 'Icarus',
I should let the current ATC'ers answer you here - however, when you land IFR at your non-towered ad., the ATC controller - to whom you are talking - is holding SARWATCH on your flight until you cancel it - with him/her.
Whether you cnl in the circuit, or after completing your safe landing, is up to you.
A VFR type SARTIME is being held by another agency - in this case CENSAR - who may be in a different location - hence the 'duplicated' workload of intercom exchanges, phone calls, message sending via a typed msg, etc etc.
'Twas so much more betterer when it was all done by the one FSO......
Forgotten SARTIMES were a great source of 'free drinks' on a Fri night at the local Aero Club....
Just don't forget is all................Cheers
Cheers
Hi 'Icarus',
I should let the current ATC'ers answer you here - however, when you land IFR at your non-towered ad., the ATC controller - to whom you are talking - is holding SARWATCH on your flight until you cancel it - with him/her.
Whether you cnl in the circuit, or after completing your safe landing, is up to you.
A VFR type SARTIME is being held by another agency - in this case CENSAR - who may be in a different location - hence the 'duplicated' workload of intercom exchanges, phone calls, message sending via a typed msg, etc etc.
'Twas so much more betterer when it was all done by the one FSO......
Forgotten SARTIMES were a great source of 'free drinks' on a Fri night at the local Aero Club....
Just don't forget is all................Cheers
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All that WORK above takes HOW LONG? Two minutes?
Actually it probably only takes 1 - 1.5 minutes.
But just as ATC will expect pilots to Aviate, navigate, then communicate; pilots should expect ATC to prioritise as well. Separation of aircraft in CTA, coordination with other units, passing traffic to IFR aircraft, providing a FIS to those entitled to it will all be completed before taking VFR SARTIME details.
I've said 'unable' to VFR requests (including SARTIME) before where I've had to. Just as nobody will praise your piloting skills for spearing into the ground as you ignore the stall warning horn while making perfectly-phrased radio calls in response to an amended TAF, nobody will praise your controlling skills as you skillfully process VFR SARTIMEs while ignoring the 30 aircraft in your sector who are all entitled to a separation service.
Cancelling SARTIME on the radio is just getting ATC to call CENSAR for you. I don't think any ATC think it isn't part of the job but when it's all turning to carp in CTA, relaying messages for VFR in G isn't the priority.
Edit: You can't equate the controller's responsibility of holding SARWATCH with relaying SARTIME cancellations.
But just as ATC will expect pilots to Aviate, navigate, then communicate; pilots should expect ATC to prioritise as well. Separation of aircraft in CTA, coordination with other units, passing traffic to IFR aircraft, providing a FIS to those entitled to it will all be completed before taking VFR SARTIME details.
I've said 'unable' to VFR requests (including SARTIME) before where I've had to. Just as nobody will praise your piloting skills for spearing into the ground as you ignore the stall warning horn while making perfectly-phrased radio calls in response to an amended TAF, nobody will praise your controlling skills as you skillfully process VFR SARTIMEs while ignoring the 30 aircraft in your sector who are all entitled to a separation service.
Cancelling SARTIME on the radio is just getting ATC to call CENSAR for you. I don't think any ATC think it isn't part of the job but when it's all turning to carp in CTA, relaying messages for VFR in G isn't the priority.
Edit: You can't equate the controller's responsibility of holding SARWATCH with relaying SARTIME cancellations.
Last edited by FL400; 2nd Sep 2010 at 06:10.
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One thing to come from this is the different perspective of ATC's and pilots. To us (ATC) VFR SARTIME and IFR Sarwatch are as different as apples and suspension bridges, as explained above. But I guess as a pilot (who are the point of the whole exercise after all), canceling SAR and terminating SARTIME are almost exactly the same. I'd never thought about it like that before.
NB
PS thank Phil, although 10% and 1%? no one will believe figures that round! I'm surprised only 1% go to phases, but some expired SARTIMES must be for aircraft still flying and late, as opposed to landed but forgot to cancel.
NB
PS thank Phil, although 10% and 1%? no one will believe figures that round! I'm surprised only 1% go to phases, but some expired SARTIMES must be for aircraft still flying and late, as opposed to landed but forgot to cancel.
Both sides here have very valid points and, as Nautilus says ... it's all about perceptions.
An interesting quote from FL400 though:
That's the very issue that was pointed out to Mr Smith & Co ... many moons ago. You really can't have an ATC providing different services to high flying jets and low level bug smashers ... at the same time. That is why we had ATC and FS.
I'm sure the bug smasher trying to cancel his imminent Sartime believes it is a pretty high priority. Obviously, the ATC with two 747s nose to nose thinks otherwise.
Both points of view are correct ... it's the system that's wrong
P.S. Phil, I bet you're glad you started this thread
An interesting quote from FL400 though:
I don't think any ATC think it isn't part of the job but when it's all turning to carp in CTA, relaying messages for VFR in G isn't the priority.
I'm sure the bug smasher trying to cancel his imminent Sartime believes it is a pretty high priority. Obviously, the ATC with two 747s nose to nose thinks otherwise.
Both points of view are correct ... it's the system that's wrong
P.S. Phil, I bet you're glad you started this thread
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Can't believe I never thought of the phone alarm idea.
And here is me thinking wearing my watch on my other hand was a pretty fool proof way to remember to call and cancel sartime for all those years until I started flying in my first job more regularly and the watch spent just as much time on each wrist and the inevitable happened.
Thank heavens for ifr and hf radio, though I do miss the satphones we once had.
And here is me thinking wearing my watch on my other hand was a pretty fool proof way to remember to call and cancel sartime for all those years until I started flying in my first job more regularly and the watch spent just as much time on each wrist and the inevitable happened.
Thank heavens for ifr and hf radio, though I do miss the satphones we once had.
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Slight thread drift, but does anyone know if there is a non-1800 number for CENSAR? I've used the (07) capital city landline numbers for BN CEN to cancel IFR SARWATCHs when VHF comms are a bit sketchy, but can't find an equivalent for CENSAR in the ERSA, or anywhere else for that matter. Call me cheap, but I'm getting a little sick of paying Telstra extra money for the 1800 calls I make to cancel my SARTIMEs with CENSAR, that aren't included in the usual NextG cap plan call allowances.
Baffler
Baffler
Baffler15. There is/ was a number that I used to use from a Satphone. However the message did not get passed on several times causing some angst.
G'Day Peuce,
I've actually 'passed this on' to a source who should be able to either 'assist' or tell us 'why not'..??
I believe those methods you suggest are simply other means of 'communication'......
VHF vs HF vs Tel .....etc etc
Cheers, and will advise any 'result'/response......
I've actually 'passed this on' to a source who should be able to either 'assist' or tell us 'why not'..??
I believe those methods you suggest are simply other means of 'communication'......
VHF vs HF vs Tel .....etc etc
Cheers, and will advise any 'result'/response......
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Peuce - the only problem I see with SMS or e-mail is that they are relay based, so until you get a reply back there is no way to know they actually got the cancellation and it was actioned successfully. So if the pilot does not get an acknowledgement in time it would still be on them to call up anyway.
That said, it's probably just as reliable in most circumstances anyway.
That said, it's probably just as reliable in most circumstances anyway.
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I'm pretty sure you can cancel a SARTIME through NAIPS if you use the same login details as you did to Submit the Flight Notification. - But that involves paying for telstra Next-G internet! (Unless you have included data on your phone and have NAIPS for iPhone etc.)