VFR Operations At Tamworth
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Sounds feasible QSK....
No I wasn't certified to use the aid.... (irrelevant in the end as they would never know anyway)
In the end I should have never said that I had one and they would have not been in a position to "force" me to use it. Therefore with no GPS, I would have just had to depart on a heading.
and Dick, yes, I got the clearance I was after once I gave them the required outbound radial that I had to stick to.
The joys of not having radar I guess (assumption of mine).
What was annoying was that they did not permit me to use an airport as the destination, eg. Depart CBR, Overfly Albury to YMEL - I had to transit on a VOR radial.
(if you are rated to use the aid)
In the end I should have never said that I had one and they would have not been in a position to "force" me to use it. Therefore with no GPS, I would have just had to depart on a heading.
and Dick, yes, I got the clearance I was after once I gave them the required outbound radial that I had to stick to.
The joys of not having radar I guess (assumption of mine).
What was annoying was that they did not permit me to use an airport as the destination, eg. Depart CBR, Overfly Albury to YMEL - I had to transit on a VOR radial.
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Thats because you are to track from aid to aid. For example when you program your GNS430 to fly from say YBUD to YHBA you enter your plan as follows;
YBUD > BUD (being the NDB) >HBA (being the NDB)>YHBA This puts you on the track. Of course if its a place with no aid....you just use the Aerodrome reference point.
So Dick....what is the answer to your clearance?
YBUD > BUD (being the NDB) >HBA (being the NDB)>YHBA This puts you on the track. Of course if its a place with no aid....you just use the Aerodrome reference point.
So Dick....what is the answer to your clearance?
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XXX, You transited Albury class C airspace, the controller by law has to be able to prove he/she has a separation standard with any IFR aircraft that is in C airspace as well. When using VFR tracks the separation standards are greater than when tracking via VOR radials or NDB bearings.
The controller was probably trying to separate using radials to reduce the separation standard between yourself and whoever you were conflicting with and minimize inconvenience to both aircraft.
Just interested to know...were you given an amended clearance? and if so, how different was it from your planned track?
The controller was probably trying to separate using radials to reduce the separation standard between yourself and whoever you were conflicting with and minimize inconvenience to both aircraft.
Just interested to know...were you given an amended clearance? and if so, how different was it from your planned track?
Albury is in a class of it's own. I recently tracked over Albury in CTA. They asked if I had a VOR. I said "I have VOR but haven't used it before as I have never flown this aircraft before, thus would prefer GPS" They responded that I HAD to choose my outbound VOR radial to obtain a clearance and that I HAD to use the VOR. I stated again that I was fitted with GPS, to which they replied that I wasn't allowed to use it.
WTF???? @#%$@$
WTF???? @#%$@$
Put a flightplan into the GPS from the VOR at your departure aerodrome to your destination, read off the required track - and tell that guy in the tower that is your outbound radial - "reference the omni"!
T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.
Dr
Dick might be just out having a latte ... in which case I'll happily amend this statement when he returns and responds ...
... but, I think he's just been caught out by a clearance that takes him through CTA (as opposed to just CTR) ... ergo ... DEP call required.
... a lesson for us all .... them charts can be tricky!
... but, I think he's just been caught out by a clearance that takes him through CTA (as opposed to just CTR) ... ergo ... DEP call required.
... a lesson for us all .... them charts can be tricky!
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Put a flightplan into the GPS from the VOR at your departure aerodrome to your destination, read off the required track - and tell that guy in the tower that is your outbound radial - "reference the omni"!
T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.
T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.
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At this point, no-one has explained the purpose of a departure report from a VFR flight.
Just what does it achieve apart from some vague outdated means for ATC to complete the paperwork.
Just what does it achieve apart from some vague outdated means for ATC to complete the paperwork.
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Why?
It's a carry over from not having radar. (no idea if they have it or not these days at these locations)
Means that some ATC guy can sit in a room anywhere in the country plotting out aircraft and their respective tracks on his A3 map with monopoly game pieces for aircraft. When you give your departure call he moves your piece off the board.
It's a carry over from not having radar. (no idea if they have it or not these days at these locations)
Means that some ATC guy can sit in a room anywhere in the country plotting out aircraft and their respective tracks on his A3 map with monopoly game pieces for aircraft. When you give your departure call he moves your piece off the board.
Was this not clear enough?
- They may be busy and not see you depart overhead
- You may not be in radar coverage, so your Search And Rescue watch is based on your flight planned estimate for the next reporting point. That estimate is worked out by adding YOUR departure time to YOUR estimated time interval. Everyone's working off the same estimate then.( you don't want them chasing you for a position report because they had a different dep time than you)
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T'ant no way they can tell that you are using the GPS not the VOR.
Yes practically correct, but technically illegal.
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VFR flights are either NOSAR or SARTIME.
There is no SARWATCH for next reporting point.
The only reason for the next report would be leaving C or D for G or E.
There should always be an airborne time recorded.
Departure may not be from overhead, but some position on track within 5 miles.
There is no SARWATCH for next reporting point.
The only reason for the next report would be leaving C or D for G or E.
There should always be an airborne time recorded.
Departure may not be from overhead, but some position on track within 5 miles.
I don't want to be picky, however, if a VFR is in procedural C (or D) and doesn't answer, report or arrive at the next point ... is he not chased? If you don't hear from him, do you just assume 'he's gone somewhere else' ?
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VH-XXX
The correct response to the question "do you have a VOR" when you are equipped but not certified is "Negative" When we ask if you have a particular navaid it is implied that you are certified to use it.
The departure report is required for separation. The controller will use the information to caculate procedural separation requirements. Eg Est time of passing and lateral separation entry and exit times. You may only be in C for a short while but the controller may have to use this infomation to separate other inbound or outbound aircraft.
The correct response to the question "do you have a VOR" when you are equipped but not certified is "Negative" When we ask if you have a particular navaid it is implied that you are certified to use it.
The departure report is required for separation. The controller will use the information to caculate procedural separation requirements. Eg Est time of passing and lateral separation entry and exit times. You may only be in C for a short while but the controller may have to use this infomation to separate other inbound or outbound aircraft.
When you live....
Not wanting to open a can of worms but I was wondering about VH-XXX's statements about having a VOR but not knowing how to use it. As willadvise says - either you have one and are rated to use it or you tell ATC you don't. Likewise, people who tick S on the FPL are saying that they have ratings to use VOR & NDB - for navigation if VFR and for approaches for IFR.
Someone else mentioned that VFR can't use VOR - they can, if certified in their logbook as having been trained and competent to use them (or NDB) - and it's compulsary for NVFR.
My can of worms though is doing GPS training so as to be allowed to use it to navigate (VFR or IFR) requires you to input GPSRNAV under NAV on the FPL - which then implies that you can use it for GPSRNAV approaches. Been caught out on that before....
UTR
Someone else mentioned that VFR can't use VOR - they can, if certified in their logbook as having been trained and competent to use them (or NDB) - and it's compulsary for NVFR.
My can of worms though is doing GPS training so as to be allowed to use it to navigate (VFR or IFR) requires you to input GPSRNAV under NAV on the FPL - which then implies that you can use it for GPSRNAV approaches. Been caught out on that before....
UTR
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At this point, no-one has explained the purpose of a departure report from a VFR flight.
Just what does it achieve apart from some vague outdated means for ATC to complete the paperwork.
Just what does it achieve apart from some vague outdated means for ATC to complete the paperwork.
The departure report allowed me to provide correct traffic info.
In other words, it can be part of the safety net that prevents an incident. How many safety nets should we remove?
Thread Starter
Peuce
I haven’t been answering you because I’m just sitting in sheer dismay. I have worked for over a decade to bring in the simpler US Class D procedures. User friendly, don’t frighten VFR pilots away from non-radar towers.
A departure report for a Class D is not required in the USA and other leading aviation countries for both IFR and VFR. Surely the controller can see you depart? He or she has given you a clearance and you are heading off in that direction.
I once flew into Tamworth with a friend and the person said, “I wouldn’t be game to come here by myself” even though the person had a private licence with reasonable experience. The reason was the Tamworth controller made the whole process extraordinarily complicated for no real reason – clearance limits here and there, asking for clearance readbacks, all for simple VFR traffic.
Peuce, you just don’t get it. You don’t realise that you frighten people away from flying. I wish we could get a few professional American air traffic controllers here to run our D towers. They would make it so fantastic – we would increase the number of people flying immediately.
Yes, I mean that. The amateurish rubbish which goes on here is embarrassing. When I flew into Tamworth it was almost dead, and when I mentioned to the controller how little traffic there was, he said that he had seven flight strips in front of him. In the next ten minutes he made the system so complicated – all VFR – it was almost unbelievable.
There is no need for a VFR departure report whether I am flying at 10 feet or going into space. If other countries don’t need it, why do we?
Yes, amateurish amateurs running our air traffic control system. One day we will get some professionals from overseas to show our people how to do it.
Hopefully this will happen soon.
I haven’t been answering you because I’m just sitting in sheer dismay. I have worked for over a decade to bring in the simpler US Class D procedures. User friendly, don’t frighten VFR pilots away from non-radar towers.
A departure report for a Class D is not required in the USA and other leading aviation countries for both IFR and VFR. Surely the controller can see you depart? He or she has given you a clearance and you are heading off in that direction.
I once flew into Tamworth with a friend and the person said, “I wouldn’t be game to come here by myself” even though the person had a private licence with reasonable experience. The reason was the Tamworth controller made the whole process extraordinarily complicated for no real reason – clearance limits here and there, asking for clearance readbacks, all for simple VFR traffic.
Peuce, you just don’t get it. You don’t realise that you frighten people away from flying. I wish we could get a few professional American air traffic controllers here to run our D towers. They would make it so fantastic – we would increase the number of people flying immediately.
Yes, I mean that. The amateurish rubbish which goes on here is embarrassing. When I flew into Tamworth it was almost dead, and when I mentioned to the controller how little traffic there was, he said that he had seven flight strips in front of him. In the next ten minutes he made the system so complicated – all VFR – it was almost unbelievable.
There is no need for a VFR departure report whether I am flying at 10 feet or going into space. If other countries don’t need it, why do we?
Yes, amateurish amateurs running our air traffic control system. One day we will get some professionals from overseas to show our people how to do it.
Hopefully this will happen soon.
Dick,
Dismayed you may be ... but that doesn't change reality!
If you re-read some of the posts above, you will see a number of valid reasons why a Departure call is required ... in some circumstances ... in Australia.
Geez, in the ole days, everyone gave a departure call, all the time ... and no one seemed to die from it.
If it so painful, depart straight into G.
Dismayed you may be ... but that doesn't change reality!
If you re-read some of the posts above, you will see a number of valid reasons why a Departure call is required ... in some circumstances ... in Australia.
- Fact: The Controller may not see your departure. As you said, the Controller had 7 strips in front of him, on a quiet day. Imagine the workload on a busy day. I don't think it's possible to accurately observe every departure, always. I welcome opinions from current Controllers.
- Fact: Without surveillance, procedural seperation is required. To provide safe procedural seperation, accurate times are required.
- Fact: Pilots occassionally stuff up ... sometimes they think they are going somewhere, the Controller thinks they're going somewhere else. It's a back up.
- Fact: The rule books say you have to. Get it changed if you are that concerned.
- Fact: Most VFR pilots are not 'scared 'to go to Tamworth ... other than those with a fear of country music!
- Fact: The U.S. have different air traffic management, coordination and surveillance environments
Geez, in the ole days, everyone gave a departure call, all the time ... and no one seemed to die from it.
If it so painful, depart straight into G.
I have worked for over a decade to bring in the simpler US Class D procedures.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 20th Aug 2010 at 03:30.