le Pingouin

Why would we be heading back to VFR full reporting?

No ATC services OCTA? What do you think IFR aircraft or VFR flight following get now? What do I spend half my time at the console doing? Why do you have a transponder now?

bushy

The "nannying" I was talking about was collision avoidance at Ayers Rock and other places, and the "safety" at Lockhart River and hundreds of other places referred to approaches with vertical profile guidance.
It appears that the proposed Airservices plan will provide the former, and not the latter.

peuce

• I don't think it's being a sissy to want as much collision avoidance assistance as is possible and available
• I think there are many advantages in ATC being able to "see" every airborne aircraft ... no matter what services it is providing to each of them. I can't see any disadvantages with the concept (except, perhaps, with cluttered radar screens)

Traveling, for a moment, completely outside the square ... how are taxis monitored by their control centres? A bit of GPS kit, I assume. Would there be a place for a similar, presumably low cost, system for equipping the GA fleet ... in lieu of ADSB?

Joker 10

Pinguin It is a fact that to be IFR Directed Traffic one has to be operating on an IFR plan no matter which class of airspace one is operating within and likewise for VFR with flight following.

so your comment quote: Why would we be heading back to VFR full reporting?

No ATC services OCTA? What do you think IFR aircraft or VFR flight following get now? What do I spend half my time at the console doing? Why do you have a transponder now?

Seems somewhat disingenuous, if the only benefit of ADSB out is position data to ATC what is the data to be used for just SAR ??

So if there are VFR aircraft out there on no plan the ADSB does precisely what ???

Joker 10

Owen,
You are so good, yup it is a requirement to notify known VFR traffic, so what.

Are you saying if ADSB is introduced below FL 290 in all classes of airspace you will be monitoring all traffic and the requirement to notify will extend VFR to VFR.

Or are you in favour of maintaining the status quo, notifying directed traffic of any known VFR traffic in the area and if so what will the boundary of the protection bubble be ?? 10 miles, 15 miles, 8 minutes.

OZBUSDRIVER

Francis, seeing as we are talking about VFR in class G consider that a non TSO ADS-B Rx unit is quite capable of doing the job in ADVISING you of traffic....after all we still must lookoutandsee! You gotta ask yourself why pilots would fork out nearly $3000.00 for a non TSO GPS to mount on their control column....good place for a screen that depicts that non TSO traffic advisory.

Provided the aircraft has the certified ADS-B Tx unit for the benefit of AirServices then there is nothing to stop a lowly ppl paying for a little bit more gear to enhance his own awareness

And that gear all works outside airspace.

ADS-B Tx is to benefit AirServices to allow them to replace en-route SSR gear. Enable 100% coverage ABV FL290 across the continent and the J-Curve as well as airspace in the mineral provinces. That is the minimum requirement to gurantee the savings as promised. Critical mass in aircraft fitment allows future expansion at minimal cost as compared to the prohibitive cost of an SSR facility. Thats how low level rollout will now go ahead in this country.

ANd this argument will go spinning around with the same outcome.

Just remember. A VFR pilot can use NON-TSO gear to advise him/her for his/her own information. An aircraft must have a TSO for fitment in compliance with equipment regs...pilots do not!

Joker 10

Bus Driver yes a VFR pilot can use aids to "advise" him/herself , but they cannot use such aids as sole means for any service which includes ATC.

Owen Or are you in favour of maintaining the status quo, notifying directed traffic of any known VFR traffic in the area and if so what will the boundary of the protection bubble be ?? 10 miles, 15 miles, 8 minutes.

So Owen why would you need ADSB???? if your are not going to use it for separation??? How would you know who might be out there if there are no plans in the system ???? Or would you call traffic on unidentified random paints coming from non certified gear.

All sounds somewhat undiscilpined to me.

Frank Arouet

OZBUSDRIVER;

If you read my initial statement it covers everything I support with the concept. If I have not added low level class G airspace it is because I don't see the evolution of ADSB will start there. I do see a possible radar replacement in due course where an ATC presence is required.

Once that is achieved talk to me about day Visual Flight Rules gadgets that may make my life safer, and easier.

If people took what support that is offered it may help in bringing the evolution into play. It would appear that some are either too bloody minded or too eager or too selfish to take this in logical steps and accept what support is offered even if it does not meet with their grand designs.

le Pingouin

So if there are VFR aircraft out there on no plan squawking 1200 does precisely what ???

Or don't you operate a transponder?

Joker 10

Yes I operate a mode S transponder as I operate IFR when I transit G airspace but I am aware of the fact that a significant number of Austers, Chipmunk, Airtourers, C150/152, Country based C172/182, AG aircraft and Glider Tow aircraft don't even carry Transponders.

Let alone the multitude of aircraft registered to the RAA.

As I said way back in this rather stilted attempt at stifling debate by the ADSB proponents, cost is a significant factor in the whole issue.

Can someone for the purposes of rational comparison tell me of a TCAS system approved for IFR aircraft < 5700 kg that is less than $50,000 USD.

Joker 10

Pinguin, a direct answer to your question, what does my transponder do in G where I fly.

I can sit and watch the reply light to see if the transponder is being interrogated for hours on end, nada , nothing until I get back into radar coverage or on very occasional days I get a TCAS return from an aircraft that is close and who I am in contact with as directed traffic and can see on my TCAS.

OZBUSDRIVER

My goodness That was exactly what the JCP had offered! I am little shocked about that statement, Francis. Anyway, will not dwell on that.

I take it then you are in agreeance with the proposal for SSR radar replacement?

UAP is already a given. Due to the signing of the refurb/maint package I would believe that as part of the actual maintanence visits to each SSR site there will be a little aerial and a couple of boxes extra in the package. (If I was running the show that is what I would attempt to do.) If it went that way ADS-B would then be set up alongside every SSR head.(the network needed to test and approve ADS-B operation as compared to low level SSR?) Now for the tricky bit. Does the CASA mandate fitment of Tx equipment in EVERY aircraft capable of entering a CTAF or do we just wait for an evolutionary process of like minded people fitting the equipment? (remember this, as far as the pilot is concerned it is a transponder, there is no tangiable benefit except for...)

I did find a piece written for an audio visual that stated that airservices would give preferential clearances to aircraft fitted and approved for ADS-B Tx. If that was the case, I am sure the likes of Joker10 and Dick Smith would become "like minded" people

Joker10....you know how good I am at this....my homework is to find you a TCAS replacment that does ADS-B modeS and FLARM or a capability as close as possible to TIS-B without the need for a ground station transmission ...under $50,000US. (TSO approved, of course!)

Do I have a timeframe? Are you planning on avionics refurbishment any time soon?

OZBUSDRIVER

Joker10....I am getting warmer....Avidyne TAS600

Click the box and you can have a $2000.00US upgrade to ADS-B Rx by the end of this year. But then again you want it now, don't you?





Ohhhhh....It's got TWO antennas

OZBUSDRIVER

Just to clarify for Owen Stanley. Do not fall for the non-TSO ADS-B "OUT" or Tx ruse. For ADS-B to become active, it must be approved as to the correct messages and equipment TSO BEFORE it's address is released to TAAATS, up until that point it is not recognised.

CASA AC 21-45(0)

OZBUSDRIVER

I wish I found this back in 2005. It would have shot huge holes in Dick Smith's ideas of TCAS as a self separation device.

ACAS II Bulletin No6 2005

NOTE- the very last line in the document.
THE TCAS TRAFFIC DISPLAY MUST NOT BE USED FOR SELF-SEPARATION

Funny that, that is exactly what you CAN do with ADS-B Rx...Self-Separate.

Joker10...I do hope you are not incorrectly using your TCAS for something it was never designed to do.

OZBUSDRIVER

Here is a nice little powerpoint produced by THALES. It may give a bit of understanding of the ground receiver hardware in current use around the planet.

Thales ADS-B ground station deployment.

OZBUSDRIVER

Here is a nice little powerpoint produced by THALES. It may give a bit of understanding of the ground receiver hardware in current use around the planet.

Thales ADS-B ground station deployment.

AND just to add-

ADS-B/MLAT/WAM

Note page 4

Frank Arouet

Re post #42

Your highlight used is very broad when you consider it was written WRT CONTROLLED AIRSPACE. It could actually be construed as "MISINFORMATION" when discussing class G airspace.

OZBUSDRIVER

Francis, TCAS cannot, ADS-B Rx CAN! It's as simple as that. Refer to the link ACAS II for more in-depth description as to why you can be fooled by a TCAS display.

As soon as you change airspace from C/E to G...does the TCAS know any different? It is not a self-separation tool.

Owen Stanley Hope it all helps

OZBUSDRIVER

Francis, sorry about the sidetrack on TCAS. Joker10 asked for a TCAS replacement. Now I hope he is refering to TCAS because RA and TA aren't really as necessary with an ADS-B input. A pilot may safely change their trajectory wrt the target aircraft in three dimensions. Speed, height and direction.

I will find one for him. However, he may find that ADS-B Rx will be an addition to his instrument panel rather than replacing TCAS. TCAS still provides that last line of defence. Think of ADS-B in this case to the changing colours on a modern synthetic vision device as an addition to GPWS. One is more useful but one is the last line and always will be. Hope this helps.